Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Our children go to Greek schools, mixing with their children and their youth and becoming friends.

What a terrible thing indeed! Why not to have the equivalent of TMT and create conflicts, wars, divisions and segregation instead?

Deniz, you can not give as a fact everything written in TC or Turkish newspapers. I never give Greek or GC sources.

The fact is that the population of Turks in Greece has been on a steady rise, while the population of the Greeks in Turkey (who at a time were even the majority in a lot of territories in Asia Minor), has declined so much they are now almost extinct. This says a lot.

I am not saying that the Turks in Greece face no problems, but even those problems would not exist if the Turks were not trying to use their minorities in order to create problems to Greece. Greece can not allow to the Turks to do to other Greek islands and territories what they did to Cyprus: To claim that just because they have some small minority on that territory that they want 50% of the power, land and everything on it.

[shahmaran]

Piratis, the colors in Crete are for Armenians.

The other color in Crete is for Turks, not Armenians.

The map claims that the Turks only exist in what we call Turkey today and some in Bulgaria.

Which is funny considering the fact that they are talking about the heart of the Ottoman Empire.

Again, the map shows the ethnic group which is the majority at any given large territory. It doesn't mean that every single person in that territory is from that ethnicity.

On the contrary to what you say, I think the map does try to do a very meticulous job in depicting every tiny bit of ethnic group scattered around the Ottoman Empire, even for the 18,000 Albanians around Athens.

The 18.000 you refer to are those self-identifying as "Albanophone". Those people (Arvanites) moved to Greece many centuries ago and integrated with the rest of the population. For most of them Greek was their main language, not Albanian. If you look at the other "Demographics" sources you will see that their number could be up to 150.000.

So why can we not find any Turks living anywhere other than Bulgaria and Turkey, within their own empire?

We know they also existed in Greece as well as Cyprus.

Again: The map shows which ehtnic group is the majority at any given large territory. It doesn't show which ehtnic groups just exist. So if in a territory there are 100.000 Greeks and 30.000 Turks, that territory will be colored blue, and vice versa. Is it clear now?

Leave that to a side, why can't we see Armenians in Cyprus?

Again: Because they are not the majority at any large enough territory.

What do you think is more accurate, historical facts or the map of some old American ex-naval officer?

This map is far from correct.

If you have other maps showing how "Greek" Cyprus is then lets see...

The map is quite accurate. If you have any facts that show that Turks were the majority in 1911 in large territories of land in Greece or Cyprus, which are not shown on the map, then give them and we will see. You didn't provide any such "historical facts".

And I already gave you a link to another map: http://www.anesi.com/rmap2.jpg from 1923, possibly after the population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Shows the same thing.

I have zoomed with Photoshop.

They are Armenians and the tiny color strip just behind the label "Crete" MIGHT be Turkish, meaning nothing but the fact that the map is still a very faulty one.

If the map does quite a good job showing all the minorities in every country, which is exactly what it does as we can see from all the tiny little labels even depicting minority groups down to 10,000, we still see no Turks anywhere.

However this is what Cyprus looks like;



That is a lot of Turks to "miss out" when depicting Cyprus

You blame me for providing no evidence yet every time you provide something it is always so easy to find information in YOUR proofs that would seriously contradict the picture you try to paint.

Turks have been around this region of the world for over a thousand years.

That is not going to change because one stupid Yankee has drawn a VERY bad map

Conclusion : Cyprus is NOT and NEVER was Greek.

You might have been the biggest ethnic group, yes, but you never owned nor ruled the island, emphasizing that conclusion even further.

[Piratis]

You should be given to nick name "The denier" You are trying to deny even what is so obvious!

Did you see the title of the map you posted? "Population movement since 1958"?

And why didn't you post a link directly to it so we can read the labels?
http://www.trncinfo.com/TANITMADAIRESI/ ... NTS/24.jpg

It is from "trncinfo.com" so it must be a very accurate map of course

And when you read the label for the red colored areas it says: "Turkish Cypriot Enclaves 1963-1974"

So I repeat: TCs were not the majority in any large area of Cyprus, just in some villages spread all over Cyprus. Cyprus is more Greek than mainland Greece is Greek, and than Turkish mainland is Turkish. Everyplace has some minorities, but your minority in Cyprus is so small and spread out it didn't even register on independent maps.

Cyprus is owned by its own people. The era of Colonialism is over, so you should drop your fascist Imperialist ideas that a territory is not owned by the native people but instead by some foreign ruler.

[shahmaran]

I did not post TRNCinfo because that is not where I got it from, if you check the location of the image you will find that it is Imageshack and many other sites host the same image!!

If the 10,000 people in Greece are worth showing, I am sure you can find a LOT more Turks to show in Cyprus.

Stop grasping for straws Piratis, you know if that map was remotely correct it would have shown the Turks in Cyprus as they are a LOT more than the Albanians in Greece.

You keep insisting that we are roughly %20 which is significant enough to put on that map.

If you do not like that map, its OK because I have more...





The notion of "nativity" is seriously open for discussion, specially in places around Europe and I assure you it will not turn out the way you woul like it to.

Plus how can I be the Imperialist when we have been fighting the real Imperialists for so many years?

What are you, high?!

[Piratis]

Your first map is from the same period as the one you posted before (since the British bases are shown). The second shows the TCs as being the minority in all cities and all districts. Therefore there was no part of Cyprus that could be considered as being "Turkish", since in all parts of Cyprus the majority was Greek.

Because you fought other Imperialists this doesn't mean you are not imperialist yourselves. Imperialists fought each other in many occasions. The Ottomans were imperialists, and now you continue on the same path by insisting that Cyprus does not belong to its own people but to whomever it rules it by force.

Personally I never excluded you from the "Cypriot people", just like I have never excluded any of the other minorities. I never said that Cypriots are exclusively Greek. Minorities exist everywhere and I have absolutely no problem with them existing and thriving in Cyprus.

The fact is that the vast majority of Cypriots are Greek, and the Greeks are the ones who have been on this island for far longer than any other ethnic group. If you say that Cyprus is not Greek, then Asia Minor can not be Turkish, since the Turks there are also about 80% of the population and they have been on that territory for far less than we have been in Cyprus.

At the end of the day this boils down to how people self-identify. I can call myself as Greek Cypriot, another one as just Cypriot, another one as Christian of Cyprus, another one as Greek of Cyprus, another one as Greek speaking Cypriot etc. The same for TCs.

These labels are not essential, and as I said in some other post you can call Cyprus as being Mexican if you like. I don't care. What is essential is that the Cypriot people are allowed to freely and democratically decide about their own island. Personally I am willing to accept any decision that the Cypriot people democratically decide as long as it respects the human rights of every Cypriot citizen. This is the way to take decisions, and not to take arms and start conflicts in order to impose what you want by force.

[Oracle]

The notion of "nativity" is seriously open for discussion, specially in places around Europe and I assure you it will not turn out the way you woul like it to.

The notion of "nativity" does not even begin to apply to the TCs (<11%) since there is and has always been (recorded by Brits, Italians, French historians + others) a majority (>82%) of another, indisputably, true native group (GCs) who have been recorded (despite your recent attempts to change this) in books, facts, stones, corpus as being the inhabitants who have inherited this land for thousands of years.

What is more, the TCs have blown any possible vestiges of appeal to being 'native' by bringing in their recent root-brothers the bloody Turks! You've blown it big time (100%) foreigner!

[Piratis]

The notion of "nativity" is seriously open for discussion, specially in places around Europe and I assure you it will not turn out the way you woul like it to.

The notion of "nativity" does not even begin to apply to the TCs (<11%) since there is and has always been (recorded by Brits, Italians, French historians + others) a majority (>82%) of another, indisputably, true native group (GCs) who have been recorded (despite your recent attempts to change this) in books, facts, stones, corpus as being the inhabitants who have inherited this land for thousands of years.

What is more, the TCs have blown any possible vestiges of appeal to being 'native' by bringing in their recent root-brothers the bloody Turks! You've blown it big time (100%) foreigner!

Personally I don't have a problem with TCs calling themselves native Cypriots. The Greeks in Turkey are also native of that territory, this doesn't mean their minority is special in some way and should be granted 50% of power and 30% of Turkey.

At the end of the day what matters in a modern state is the citizenship. Once you are a citizen you are equal with all other citizens and you should have the same rights, the same responsibilities, and your one vote in every election, like all other citizens.

But you are right that with the importation of so many Settlers the TCs run the risk of being assimilated into mainland Turks and loose their distinctive Cypriot identity. If the settlers were few, then maybe they could be assimilated and gradually become TCs. However it seems that the opposite is going to happen since the settlers are now the majority in the occupied areas. Talat even started to refer to the population there as "trnc people" instead of Cypriots. If this continues for some longer I don't think that they will be able to claim "nativity" since the vast majority of their population would have moved to Cyprus just a few decades earlier.

[shahmaran]

I will just disregard Oracles rubbish for the sake of this argument and point out to you Piratis that the problem here was the faulty map you provided, and you wanted me to provide counter evidence and I have, whether you like it or not is your problem but the evidence is there and it does not match your story.

The map you provided has left out a HUGE ethnic group that is in fact THERE, making it a faulty source which also makes your claims based on that source, also faulty.

That was my argument on this thread.

Now if you want to dilute it by getting into the whole "we have been here longer so we deserve it" argument, that's fine but that is not a claim you can make which could hold any water. If that was the case, the Aborigines would own Australia, the Native Americans would own the States and the Maoris would own New Zealand, unfortunately for you the World does not work that way, not even for the REAL native people of the world, let alone some pro-Hellenic propaganda thesis.

Plus no one has claimed that Asia minor is Turkish and in fact Turkey is about to change parts of its constitution that refers to its people as "Turks", into "the people of Turkey" to make that point even more clear.

If the "native" people of Cyprus are from mixed origin, this makes the island anything but Greek, it is as simple as that.

[Piratis]

I will just disregard Oracles rubbish for the sake of this argument and point out to you Piratis that the problem here was the faulty map you provided, and you wanted me to provide counter evidence and I have, whether you like it or not is your problem but the evidence is there and it does not match your story.

The map you provided has left out a HUGE ethnic group that is in fact THERE, making it a faulty source which also makes your claims based on that source, also faulty.

That was my argument on this thread.

Now if you want to dilute it by getting into the whole "we have been here longer so we deserve it" argument, that's fine but that is not a claim you can make which could hold any water. If that was the case, the Aborigines would own Australia, the Native Americans would own the States and the Maoris would own New Zealand, unfortunately for you the World does not work that way, not even for the REAL native people of the world, let alone some pro-Hellenic propaganda thesis.

Plus no one has claimed that Asia minor is Turkish and in fact Turkey is about to change parts of its constitution that refers to its people as "Turks", into "the people of Turkey" to make that point even more clear.

If the "native" people of Cyprus are from mixed origin, this makes the island anything but Greek, it is as simple as that.

If we go by your logic, Athens is not Greek, Ankara is not Turkish, Paris is not French, Munich is not German, Saint Petersburg is not Russian etc.

If you consider as native people that moved to an area the last few centuries then there is almost no place on earth which is "pure" and made up exclusively by a single ethnic group.

However this is not the way the identity of a territory is defined. By having same small minority of Turks in an otherwise Greek territory, it doesn't make that territory non Greek. (and the same applies in all other examples). And this is what the map I showed reflects.

Plus no one has claimed that Asia minor is Turkish

The named it "Turkey". I don't think there could be any more clear way to make this claim.

Now if you want to dilute it by getting into the whole "we have been here longer so we deserve it" argument, that's fine but that is not a claim you can make which could hold any water. If that was the case, the Aborigines would own Australia, the Native Americans would own the States and the Maoris would own New Zealand, unfortunately for you the World does not work that way, not even for the REAL native people of the world, let alone some pro-Hellenic propaganda thesis.

It is you who is making the claim that you can not be a minority in "your own country". The examples you gave clearly show that a minority is all about numbers, not anything else. I am not asking for any "bonuses" because we have existed here for longer. None at all. What we deserve is what you deserve, and what everybody deserves: human rights and democracy, where each Cypriot will be equal without racist discriminations. Don't we deserve this?

Also it is very funny that on one hand you want TCs to be considered as native because they have been here for 400 years, and then you dispute how native the GCs are, when we have been here for 1000s of years.

[shahmaran]

Piratis, stop making things up, I am probably the only person on this forum who constantly insists that the whole notion of "nativity" is fallible and especially for the people around Europe!

Which is why it is stupid and very dangerous to base arguments on.

People of Australia or America had never seen a white man until the place got invaded by them, you CAME here after!

How can you claim to be like them!?

This is not politics, this is genetics and look how far Hitler got with it

Also the ethnic makeup of Turkey is VERY complicated and nothing like Greece, you really seem to need to do a lot more reading on.

You will find why it is called Turk-iye and why it is not really about ethnicity, unlike what you are claiming in Cyprus.