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[Me Ed]

I agree entirely, but at least having been brought up as Christians, we are taught to use our initiative and not just follow blindly the dogma of others.

Now please explain that to me, how does being Christian actually teach you to use initiative and not to be blind?

Sounds like a FAT oxymoron to me...

Well lets examine the fundamentals:

Muslims are forbidden to eat pork - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.

Muslims are forbidden to drink alcohol - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.

Muslims must pray 5 times a day - Christians can CHOOSE when to pray.

Muslim women must dress modestly - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.

Muslims must fast during ramadan - Christians can CHOOSE whether to fast during lent.

Muslims have to be circumcised - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.


Christianity used to be in the dark ages, but came out of this during the European period of enlightment, something that Islam seriously needs to go through.

This sounds like nothing but the "slimmed down" version of Christianity being compared to what an ignorant Christian thinks of Islam

This is a short number of examples - I can provide more.

Muslims always label Christians as ignorant when they expose short-comings in their theology - funny that.

Nothing you have listed up there is a MUST, unless you are living under Sharia law in which case it is turned into a MUST, and it still doesn't reflect individual beliefs but it reflects what some radical leaders force up on the people.

This statement evidiently makes YOU ignorant about Islam. Also what you say about radical leaders confirms the sentiments of the thread.

Plus the Islamic world were having their "enlightement" when you were living in the dark ages.

That is something you need to learn about.

Something must have gone dreadfully wrong - I think another thread about a woman being stoned for wearing trousers describes this definiition of "enlightmenment".

Pre-enlightment western Christianity wealded to much power like forced conversion, forcing people to go to Church, kill those who did not agree with them, burn people at the stake for being witches - sounds familiar?

However since the fundamentals of both ideologies are built up on silly fairy tales, let me make it perfectly clear that I think they are just as ridiculous as each other.

Just because Christians are more "aesthetic" in some way's and managed turned themselves into being the religion of the bourgeois/aristocracy around the world, does not mean they are any "better" or any less "irrational".

That chip on you shoulder sticks out longer than Karpasia!

So without having to get into the semantics of each belief, I can easily say that both Christians and Muslims are full of shit!

Yes and that of course is the whole point of the thread is that you can say this without fear.

[shahmaran]

I agree entirely, but at least having been brought up as Christians, we are taught to use our initiative and not just follow blindly the dogma of others.

Now please explain that to me, how does being Christian actually teach you to use initiative and not to be blind?

Sounds like a FAT oxymoron to me...

Well lets examine the fundamentals:

Muslims are forbidden to eat pork - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.

Muslims are forbidden to drink alcohol - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.

Muslims must pray 5 times a day - Christians can CHOOSE when to pray.

Muslim women must dress modestly - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.

Muslims must fast during ramadan - Christians can CHOOSE whether to fast during lent.

Muslims have to be circumcised - Christians can CHOOSE whether to.


Christianity used to be in the dark ages, but came out of this during the European period of enlightment, something that Islam seriously needs to go through.

This sounds like nothing but the "slimmed down" version of Christianity being compared to what an ignorant Christian thinks of Islam

This is a short number of examples - I can provide more.

Muslims always label Christians as ignorant when they expose short-comings in their theology - funny that.

Nothing you have listed up there is a MUST, unless you are living under Sharia law in which case it is turned into a MUST, and it still doesn't reflect individual beliefs but it reflects what some radical leaders force up on the people.

This statement evidiently makes YOU ignorant about Islam. Also what you say about radical leaders confirms the sentiments of the thread.

Plus the Islamic world were having their "enlightement" when you were living in the dark ages.

That is something you need to learn about.

Something must have gone dreadfully wrong - I think another thread about a woman being stoned for wearing trousers describes this definiition of "enlightmenment".

Pre-enlightment western Christianity wealded to much power like forced conversion, forcing people to go to Church, kill those who did not agree with them, burn people at the stake for being witches - sounds familiar?

However since the fundamentals of both ideologies are built up on silly fairy tales, let me make it perfectly clear that I think they are just as ridiculous as each other.

Just because Christians are more "aesthetic" in some way's and managed turned themselves into being the religion of the bourgeois/aristocracy around the world, does not mean they are any "better" or any less "irrational".

That chip on you shoulder sticks out longer than Karpasia!

So without having to get into the semantics of each belief, I can easily say that both Christians and Muslims are full of shit!

Yes and that of course is the whole point of the thread is that you can say this without fear.

Of course it is very stupid of me to expect an objective view from someone who clearly is a Christian

How can I be ignorant about Islam when I live in an Islamic country?

I tell you one thing, I have not only been brought up in an Islamic country but also have gone through a Catholic education system, so there is not really a whole lot you can tell me about either of them and to tell you the truth this is why I think they are both full of shit, with no answers about any truth, but lots of promises and beliefs about things that are WAY beyond their understandings.

It is a hoax!

However just for the sake of the argument, the examples you provide only belong to places such as Iran, which is a totalitarian system that has nothing to do with Islam in reality, but just the interpretations of it by a bunch of sadistic Mullahs who force it up on the people with threats of execution.

The people are a whole different matter.

Plus, how can you say Muslim theology is worse than Christianity when you spent around 600 years burning witches, conquering the world, destroying every indigenous culture you came across, forced people to turn Christian violently, stole all their wealth and then settled down as the richest people on Earth?

Christianity did not take you to "enlightenment", money and slavery did!

In fact, the notion of God has not played a role in moving any culture forward really, it has been doing nothing but holding them back for thousands of years.

The sooner we get rid of this brain disease called "religion" the sooner we will REALLY start being enlightened and I do not mean that European crap which is far from the "truth", because it is still blended with fairy tales of Heavens and Hells, judgement days and so forth.

I mean something much more profound and scientific that is not based on being horribly ignorant to reality but actually understanding what REALLY is going on, thats what being enlightened means my friend and we are FAR from it as a human race

[Me Ed]

Shahmaran,

for someone whose parents went to great lengths (and expense?) to afford you a good education in a Catholic school, you are not very bright.

I was NOT refering to Christian enlightenment BUT "The Age of Enlightenment"

This article will help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

After this period, the western church's relationship with the state changed and all the despicable things they did in the dark ages effectively stop.

This is what Islam seriously needs, so that people in their societies can choose whether or not to believe without fear of intimidation, harrasment or even death.

Like in countries that are culturaly Christian based.

[shahmaran]

Shahmaran,

for someone whose parents went to great lengths (and expense?) to afford you a good education in a Catholic school, you are not very bright.

I was NOT refering to Christian enlightenment BUT "The Age of Enlightenment"

This article will help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

After this period, the western church's relationship with the state changed and all the despicable things they did in the dark ages effectively stop.

This is what Islam seriously needs, so that people in their societies can choose whether or not to believe without fear of intimidation, harrasment or even death.

Like in countries that are culturaly Christian based.

You were comparing the "Age of Enlightenment" to the cruelty of Islam as if the ages mattered because of the "quality" of the religion itself, and I have told you that it was not relevant.

How people interpret each religion is based on their education, ethics and understanding humanity, which is not connected to the religion it self.

You cannot judge religions by how governments or how certain people handle them, so you cannot blame certain twisted interpretations on the religion itself.

In Turkey you can be whoever you want but in Saudi you can't.

But they are both Muslim!

So you cannot claim that Christianity is "better" or "worse" than any other religion when they are just as backward as each other.

The only difference is, Islam is mostly in the hands of VERY poor and uneducated people, when Christianity is practiced mostly by rich countries.

People need to change, not the religion, once that is done we wont even need religion.

Don't forget that religion does not make people who they are, people make religion what it is

Some just follow others blindly while others think for themselves and question everything as it should be done, whether they are "religious" or not.

There is a world of difference between how you and I see things my clever friend

[Me Ed]

Shahmaran,

for someone whose parents went to great lengths (and expense?) to afford you a good education in a Catholic school, you are not very bright.

I was NOT refering to Christian enlightenment BUT "The Age of Enlightenment"

This article will help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

After this period, the western church's relationship with the state changed and all the despicable things they did in the dark ages effectively stop.

This is what Islam seriously needs, so that people in their societies can choose whether or not to believe without fear of intimidation, harrasment or even death.

Like in countries that are culturaly Christian based.

You were comparing the "Age of Enlightenment" to the cruelty of Islam as if the ages mattered because of the "quality" of the religion itself, and I have told you that it was not relevant.

Wrong - I was comparing the cruelty of pre-enlightenment Christianity, where even suggesting the Earth revolved around the Sun was punishable by death, to the cruelty of modern day Islam.

How people interpret each religion is based on their education, ethics and understanding humanity, which is not connected to the religion it self.

You cannot judge religions by how governments or how certain people handle them, so you cannot blame certain twisted interpretations on the religion itself.

In Turkey you can be whoever you want but in Saudi you can't.

But they are both Muslim!

I totally agree with you here, and which is why MOST Islamic countries desparately need their own version of the age of enlightment, because they will be judged by the standards they set.

So you cannot claim that Christianity is "better" or "worse" than any other religion when they are just as backward as each other.

Post-enlightment Christianity is better than current day Islam which is still in the dark ages and challenge you to find a single post-enlightment Christian country that would stone a woman for wearing trousers or kill someone fo apostacy.

The only difference is, Islam is mostly in the hands of VERY poor and uneducated people, when Christianity is practiced mostly by rich countries.

People need to change, not the religion, once that is done we wont even need religion.

Just like pre-Enlightenment Christianity which was in the hands of the VERY poor. However South America does spring to mind in the modern day context.

Don't forget that religion does not make people who they are, people make religion what it is

Some just follow others blindly while others think for themselves and question everything as it should be done, whether they are "religious" or not.

Well if Islam is submission to Allah and people must blindly follow the rules, then the religion does make the people.

Christianity is about your relationship with God, therefore, yes, the people make the religion.

There is a world of difference between how you and I see things my clever friend

May be not so much, I just think that Muslims need to chill-out about their religion and let people believe what they want to.

It's pure mindset my friend, something the Christians managed to change post-Enlightenment.

[shahmaran]

Well shall we list what the "modern day" Christians are doing around the world today and compare them to the Sharia laws of a few corrupt nations?

Shall we start with the British Empire or the Bush administration, you choose?

Again, you are confusing the religion, with the kind of people who practice it, and you are giving way too much credit to Christianity regarding the Age of Enlightenment, which came shortly after the Europeans literally raped every other civilization on Earth.

"Enlightenment" to the Europeans came through money, not Christianity.

Just as it will come to the Muslims if they were not generally at the bottom of the capitalist food chain.

They can pray all they want but it won't change anything, is that because God does not like them?

You can examine South American countries and see how their quality of life is, even though they are Christian, obviously lack of money does not help Christianity to make people "good people"

[Tim Drayton]

Let us not generalise too much. Women in the ultraorthodox Christian Amish sect living in the USA must dress in the following manner:


(For more information about the Amish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish
)

By contrast, although political Islam is fighting hard to regain the upper hand, modern Turkey, especially its large cities, is a fairly free and enlightened place even though the population is nominally 99% Muslim. The generalisation that women in Islamic countries are forced to dress conservatively is challenged by this photograph from the streets of Istanbul:





(You can find more recent photographs chronicling fashion trends on the streets of Istanbul here:

http://istanbulstreetstyle.blogspot.com/
)

[shahmaran]

You should find photos of Taksim square on a weekend....

[Me Ed]

Well shall we list what the "modern day" Christians are doing around the world today and compare them to the Sharia laws of a few corrupt nations?

Shall we start with the British Empire or the Bush administration, you choose?

The British Empire nor the Bush administration are no longer in existence, thanks to the systems put in place by the Age of Enlightenment, unlike your friend Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. How many muslim lives did his recent presidency cost?

Even your parents saw fit to educate you in this system rather than an Islamic one - It's called hypocrisy - where will you educate your children?

Im sure most muslims, including those depiced in Mr Draytons post, would rather live in the west, most notably the UK and USA where they are flooding in (where you were educated), rather than an Islamic state.

Again, you are confusing the religion, with the kind of people who practice it, and you are giving way too much credit to Christianity regarding the Age of Enlightenment, which came shortly after the Europeans literally raped every other civilization on Earth
"Enlightenment" to the Europeans came through money, not Christianity..

You are so wrong on this one, the Enlightenment was borne out of the fact the western Church lost its grip on the very poor (as you put it) and had to cave in to reason.

This did not get rid of Christianity, although the attempt by Soviet Russia tried this and failed, rather the Church re-established its relationship with the people.

Just as it will come to the Muslims if they were not generally at the bottom of the capitalist food chain.

They can pray all they want but it won't change anything, is that because God does not like them?

You can examine South American countries and see how their quality of life is, even though they are Christian, obviously lack of money does not help Christianity to make people "good people"

You really need to stop making excuses for the behaviour of current day muslims as being poor (ahhh!) and the states that govern them.

It really indicates that you have not understood the sentiment of this thread.

[kurupetos]

Nice! Is this Talat?