Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

So nif you take 18 per cent of the territory will you then leave the south alone? Or are we going into a new round of disputing its continental shelf and Exclusive Economic Zone, search and resscue authority and all that bullshit Turkey constantly tries on its neighbors?

[Get Real!]

The EU will eventually realise Turkey's importance and will switch on you (GC-ROC) like a double-edged sword![/b]

An importance that's taking so long to realize can't possibly be that important...

[Viewpoint]

If both communities own the whole island then the 2 communities can agree a split, private property rights can be restored either by return or compensation, easy really where there is a will there is a way.

[Get Real!]

If both communities own the whole island then the 2 communities can agree a split, private property rights can be restored either by return or compensation, easy really where there is a will there is a way.

It's not a case of "two communities owning the whole island"! That's something you've just made up and without a quote from the RoC constitution verifying your claims don't even think about attempting to "argue" this.

[Viewpoint]

If both communities own the whole island then the 2 communities can agree a split, private property rights can be restored either by return or compensation, easy really where there is a will there is a way.

It's not a case of "two communities owning the whole island"! That's something you've just made up and without a quote from the RoC constitution verifying your claims don't even think about attempting to "argue" this.

OK lets approach it from this angle who owns the "RoC" according to your constitution?

[Nikitas]

All citizens own the whole island. The idea of geographic separation is a new concept which exists only in the minds of colonialists who used partition as a political tool post 1945.

Partition does not work long term. People tend to move and go where there is work and money. Look at Switzerland and how its population is concentrated in the richest cantons regardless of ethnic orgins. Look at the USA where the well off states like California and New York have the highest concentrations of population. Same is happening now in the newly partitioned former Yugoslavia.

In Cyprus under Annan 5 there was to be a permanent fixing of the residence rights so as to preserve an artificial proportion of "indigenous" populations in each component state. That was the most untenable part of the plan. People cannot be fenced off and kept away from employment and financial well being.

The bottom line is that as long as Turkey has these psychotic goals there will be no progress.

[Viewpoint]

Nikitas

All citizens own the whole island. The idea of geographic separation is a new concept which exists only in the minds of colonialists who used partition as a political tool post 1945.

So this confirms that if TCs are citizens they have a right to Cyprus as well as GCs. The clear fact that we are unable to run a country together as one people leaves us no other alternatives but to either fight it out as we did in 1974 or agree to divide the island we both own (individual property rights aside thats another issue altogether) so that each side can run their own part of the island, pretty much as we do today with the fears of the past and prosperity in abundance...much better that the dark years in our past.

Partition does not work long term. People tend to move and go where there is work and money. Look at Switzerland and how its population is concentrated in the richest cantons regardless of ethnic orgins. Look at the USA where the well off states like California and New York have the highest concentrations of population. Same is happening now in the newly partitioned former Yugoslavia.

Why doesn't partition work long term, are all countries partition? people move around in accordance with the laws of that state, we can do the same.

In Cyprus under Annan 5 there was to be a permanent fixing of the residence rights so as to preserve an artificial proportion of "indigenous" populations in each component state. That was the most untenable part of the plan. People cannot be fenced off and kept away from employment and financial well being.

This was a temporary measure until the financial strength of the north state reached the level of the south and helped maintain a political balance. The likelihood of GCs wanting to live in a TC state is very low so why are you so concerned about quotas or upper limits when you have no intention to exploit or manipulate areas which can be used to take control of the whole island?

The bottom line is that as long as Turkey has these psychotic goals there will be no progress.

We think exactly the same of you guys, your main goal is a GC state with us as a minority under your thumb, please feel free to prove us wrong as that's how it looks from what you people are demanding.

[Kikapu]

Nikitas

All citizens own the whole island. The idea of geographic separation is a new concept which exists only in the minds of colonialists who used partition as a political tool post 1945.

So this confirms that if TCs are citizens they have a right to Cyprus as well as GCs. The clear fact that we are unable to run a country together as one people leaves us no other alternatives but to either fight it out as we did in 1974 or agree to divide the island we both own (individual property rights aside thats another issue altogether) so that each side can run their own part of the island, pretty much as we do today with the fears of the past and prosperity in abundance...much better that the dark years in our past.

Partition does not work long term. People tend to move and go where there is work and money. Look at Switzerland and how its population is concentrated in the richest cantons regardless of ethnic orgins. Look at the USA where the well off states like California and New York have the highest concentrations of population. Same is happening now in the newly partitioned former Yugoslavia.

Why doesn't partition work long term, are all countries partition? people move around in accordance with the laws of that state, we can do the same.

In Cyprus under Annan 5 there was to be a permanent fixing of the residence rights so as to preserve an artificial proportion of "indigenous" populations in each component state. That was the most untenable part of the plan. People cannot be fenced off and kept away from employment and financial well being.

This was a temporary measure until the financial strength of the north state reached the level of the south and helped maintain a political balance. The likelihood of GCs wanting to live in a TC state is very low so why are you so concerned about quotas or upper limits when you have no intention to exploit or manipulate areas which can be used to take control of the whole island?

The bottom line is that as long as Turkey has these psychotic goals there will be no progress.

We think exactly the same of you guys, your main goal is a GC state with us as a minority under your thumb, please feel free to prove us wrong as that's how it looks from what you people are demanding.

So this confirms that if TCs are citizens they have a right to Cyprus as well as GCs.

Who ever said anything to the contrary, except all you Fascist Partitionist who claim that you are not Cypriots but "Turks in Cyprus". So which are you.?

The clear fact that we are unable to run a country together as one people leaves us no other alternatives but to either fight it out as we did in 1974 or agree to divide the island we both own (individual property rights aside thats another issue altogether) so that each side can run their own part of the island, pretty much as we do today with the fears of the past and prosperity in abundance...much better that the dark years in our past.

It has not been proven that the island can't be run by all Cypriots, because True Democracy , Human Rights and International laws has not been allowed to develop on the island, starting with the 1960 Constitution. Since you believe you are a citizen of Cyprus and are part of Cyprus, then why don't you play your part of a citizen and make it work. Just because you are a numerical minority has nothing to do with it, as there are 4 main ethnic groups with 4 different official languages making Switzerland work with their 69%, 20%, 10% and 1% respective ethnic groups. The problem is, you do not want to have a True Democratic system, just because the TCs make up less than 20% in 1060 and most probably less than 10% now.

But if you wanted to divide the island, not that you or anyone else has such a right to make such a demand, even if all the TCs were to band as one, the most you would get is 10%. Therefore, how do you intend getting all the TCs to move into that 10%. The truth is, you can't and the other truth is, half the TCs would not want to be in the same state as you and would prefer to live where ever they are now as well as return back to their homes in the south. So now, you are left with at most 5% of land to call it your own "Turkish State" assuming of course that you will finally ask the TA to go home, otherwise, they will have to share the same space as them, since they already occupy at least 5% of Cyprus just for themselves. So VP, are you still interested in dividing the island.??

Why doesn't partition work long term, are all countries partition?

No, all countries are not partitioned. You have zero relevance with the north and other states that have gained their independence from their rulers. The TCs and the GCs as well as other Cypriots on the island do not have their own individual states . They are from all over the island. You are either a citizen of Cyprus as one identity, or else, each can go back to their motherlands, where ever that may be.

people move around in accordance with the laws of that state, we can do the same.

You cannot restrict citizens from moving about their own country. In the US as well as in Switzerland, anyone can move wherever they want. The only way you can do that, is to have 2 independent sovereign states in Cyprus, and if you want to do that, that the most you will get is 10% and maybe as low as 5%. Why would the RoC agree to give you more, specially when large numbers of your community will want to work in the south if that’s where most of the good paying jobs are.?

This was a temporary measure until the financial strength of the north state reached the level of the south and helped maintain a political balance. The likelihood of GCs wanting to live in a TC state is very low so why are you so concerned about quotas or upper limits when you have no intention to exploit or manipulate areas which can be used to take control of the whole island?

That's right, the GCs will not want to move to the north if most of their properties are in the south, which was the argument I made to you many times on my BBF plan, but of course, you rejected that idea, because it did not allow partition in any way.

We think exactly the same of you guys, your main goal is a GC state with us as a minority under your thumb, please feel free to prove us wrong as that's how it looks from what you people are demanding.

Under my BBF plan once most of GC land was returned back to them, the north would maintain 50% of power as well as their own state with all the local government under their control in a True Democratic way and with your own admission just now that most GCs will not return to the north even if they had properties according to you, so what would be the likelihood them moving to the north if they did not have any properties there. Not very much at all. But you don't like that plan, because it does not give you partition. Once you remove in wanting partition, everything is possible to have a Fair and Just settlement. That is the reason why the present talks are not going anywhere and why it is taking so long, because you still want to have your hidden partition in the settlement at some point in the future. As soon as you accept True Democracy, True Federation, Human Rights, International laws and EU Principles, the rest is just details. If you don't accept the above principles, then we can't move forward and Turkey can't get into the EU and the north stays as an illegal entity..