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[Viewpoint]

VP said:

"if it suits for the TRNC to be recognized recognized it will be and there will be nothing the GCs can do,"

I was not asking about GC opbjections. In a hypothetical agreement between the two communities to proceed with formal partition and mutual recognition, how would Turkey react?

You see, so far there has not been s single statement by Turkey that it seeks an independent TRNC. It wants it recognised, separated from the GCs and RoC, but I have yet to hear the word "independent" from official Turkish sources.

Wasnt 1983 the biggest statement possible?

[Viewpoint]

The Cypriot

There are no alternatives unless they are approved by the Cypriot people. The option is reunification in accordance with UN resolutions and EU law, or continuation of the status quo; a status quo, which I don't need to remind you, has already lasted 35 years.

There are imo 6 options:

Recognition as is.
Unification
Agreed partition for land
Return to 1960
Status Quo each side working for their own goals.
War

Your last comment is very important "a status quo, which I don't need to remind you, has already lasted 35 years." as this appears to be a sign of what will work in Cyprus why change things and take on the risk of causing more conflict and pain for our peoples. Consolidate on what has brought a peaceful existence and prosperity to the island. Individual property rights can be restored where possible or full compensation can be paid this will go some way to building trust and understanding, who knows with positive steps such as the return of Maras, direct trade and flights we may see the benefits and want to unite naturally rather being forced into a marriage neither side really wants.

Who would brain wash me to believe this? Why would they do that? What would they have to gain?

Uniformity and bloody mindedness to attain extremist goals....your whole education system and general political approach of being the victims and 100% rightousness are all brain washing methods you have to break out of that box and see that these TCs also have a point, only then will you be able to understand TCs and how to resolve problems.

There will be no repeat of the Annan Plan. There will be no repeat rejection.

Doesnt matter what its called any plan will be rejected by the GCs as they do not want to compromise on key issues, so name it what you will if GCs do not 100% of their demands in other words a free hand to do as they widh they will reject any plan pu before them.

This has no bearing on international law.

Do TCs have 50% of the weight in any new plan?

[The Cypriot]

There are imo 6 options:

Recognition as is.
Unification
Agreed partition for land
Return to 1960
Status Quo each side working for their own goals.
War

Recognition as is will not be agreed;
Agreed partition: the legal implications would need to be examined as this would involved the Republic ceding land which perhaps could be challenged in the courts;
Return to 1960: constitution would need amending to be in line with EU law and to remove foreign intervention rights. But essentially this means reunification.
War: essentially the status quo war, but upping the stakes.

Your last comment is very important "a status quo, which I don't need to remind you, has already lasted 35 years." as this appears to be a sign of what will work in Cyprus why change things and take on the risk of causing more conflict and pain for our peoples. Consolidate on what has brought a peaceful existence and prosperity to the island. Individual property rights can be restored where possible or full compensation can be paid this will go some way to building trust and understanding, who knows with positive steps such as the return of Maras, direct trade and flights we may see the benefits and want to unite naturally rather being forced into a marriage neither side really wants.

A fair amount of the above has merit, and I'm sure is being discussed by Christofias but the objective must be to agree to work, in stages, towards real unification. Any agreement must allow for and encourage this; not lead to and cement division.

Who would brain wash me to believe this? Why would they do that? What would they have to gain?

Uniformity and bloody mindedness to attain extremist goals....your whole education system and general political approach of being the victims and 100% rightousness are all brain washing methods you have to break out of that box and see that these TCs also have a point, only then will you be able to understand TCs and how to resolve problems.

You've got me all wrong. I went to school in north London and have always viewed politics, especially Cypriot politics, with cynicism; actually stoicism would be a better word. I was never in the box to break out of it.

Doesnt matter what its called any plan will be rejected by the GCs as they do not want to compromise on key issues,

A plan will not be rejected. A plan will not be presented unless it will be accepted. It's not a question of wanting to compromise. It's a question of needing to. And they don't. And any deal on offer must be an improvement to the status quo, not a deterioration. The same applies to the side occupied by Turkey's army. But that's a choice you have to make. Make no mistake, free Cypriots will not allow themselves to be responsible for another 'No'.

so name it what you will if GCs do not 100% of their demands in other words a free hand to do as they widh they will reject any plan pu before them.

I don't believe they will. If it is fair, if it complies with international law and is in accordance with EU principles, they will accept it. And so should you.

Do TCs have 50% of the weight in any new plan?

They too will have to accept it... the settlers voting on it is an other matter. Another example of international law being side-stepped. Given that they are in the majority now in the north, TC weight is clearly reduced substantially.

But the agreement will have to suit Cypriots, not settlers who really shouldn't be there in the first place. If that means the north rejects the plan because you gave them voting rights, then that will be a shame, for TCs as well as for Turkey.

[Nikitas]

"Wasnt 1983 the biggest statement possible?"

NO IT WAS NOT! The biggesty indication is the insistence by Turkey, that despite the division and so called independence of the TRNC, it insists that RoC has no rights to exploit its marine resources in the south.

Another indication is the withdrawal of recognition of the RoC.

The messages so far have not been those of a side that wants to separate and leave well alone, but of a rapacious neighbor who keeps moving the fence to suit his appetite.

[Viewpoint]

"Wasnt 1983 the biggest statement possible?"

NO IT WAS NOT! The biggesty indication is the insistence by Turkey, that despite the division and so called independence of the TRNC, it insists that RoC has no rights to exploit its marine resources in the south.

Another indication is the withdrawal of recognition of the RoC.

The messages so far have not been those of a side that wants to separate and leave well alone, but of a rapacious neighbor who keeps moving the fence to suit his appetite.

Lame excuses.

[Viewpoint]

The Cypriot

Recognition as is will not be agreed;
Agreed partition: the legal implications would need to be examined as this would involved the Republic ceding land which perhaps could be challenged in the courts;
Return to 1960: constitution would need amending to be in line with EU law and to remove foreign intervention rights. But essentially this means reunification.
War: essentially the status quo war, but upping the stakes

Never say never if talks fail yet again moves will be taken to help us get closer to recognition, feel free to reject away.

A fair amount of the above has merit, and I'm sure is being discussed by Christofias but the objective must be to agree to work, in stages, towards real unification. Any agreement must allow for and encourage this; not lead to and cement division.

Thank you for acknowledging realıty which should be taken into account when trying to find a solution.

You've got me all wrong. I went to school in north London and have always viewed politics, especially Cypriot politics, with cynicism; actually stoicism would be a better word. I was never in the box to break out of it.

You obviously have been brainwashed by your famıly and regualr visits to the GC south.

A plan will not be rejected. A plan will not be presented unless it will be accepted. It's not a question of wanting to compromise. It's a question of needing to. And they don't. And any deal on offer must be an improvement to the status quo, not a deterioration. The same applies to the side occupied by Turkey's army. But that's a choice you have to make. Make no mistake, free Cypriots will not allow themselves to be responsible for another 'No'

The problem is when the world tells you that TC concerns and fears have to be accomadated in any new agreement, what will you do then? What you GCs want and what we want appear to differ and neither side is willing to back down, so what will give?

They too will have to accept it... the settlers voting on it is an other matter. Another example of international law being side-stepped. Given that they are in the majority now in the north, TC weight is clearly reduced substantially.

But the agreement will have to suit Cypriots, not settlers who really shouldn't be there in the first place. If that means the north rejects the plan because you gave them voting rights, then that will be a shame, for TCs as well as for Turkey.

Lets put it this way does our side have 50% of the say? and do you need it to agree a solution?

[The Cypriot]

Never say never if talks fail yet again moves will be taken to help us get closer to recognition, feel free to reject away.

No, if recognition was an option certain parties would want to engineer a failure to achieve this. There will be no rejection.

You obviously have been brainwashed by your famıly and regualr visits to the GC south.

I am what I am. A product of my experiences. I do not blindly follow what the politicians, the press and the text books say. I suggest you do likewise, if you don't already, as our minds are more likely to meet.

The problem is when the world tells you that TC concerns and fears have to be accomadated in any new agreement, what will you do then?

I would recommend that as much as is reasonably possible is done to address any genuine fears. That would be the logical, reasonable thing to do.

What you GCs want and what we want appear to differ and neither side is willing to back down, so what will give?

There is not as much difference as perhaps you'd like to believe. As perhaps Turkey's military would like you to believe, for its own purposes.

Lets put it this way does our side have 50% of the say? and do you need it to agree a solution?

We need to agree a solution, where both sides of the current divide stand to benefit, and feel safe, or the status quo remains.

[NikosGB23]

NikosGB23

I am sticking to what I have proposed. And is it our fault that TCs are a minority? Every country has a minority and if you can't handle being a monority than leave. And if you can't trust us, the feelings mutual.

We are not going anywhere so get over it, the mistrust is of course mutual we understand you but you do not appear to want to understand us. Being a numerical majority does not make us any less a partner in 1960 or 2009, this is something you have to understand and maybe then you will be able put forward propositions we can agree to.

If your not willing to put ethnical differences aside than thats your problem as well. Facts are facts. youre a minority and your going to have to deal with being a minority. This is a Greek island by nature. But we've accepted the fact that there are Turks here as well and have tried to cope with them but Turkey wants more. Thats the real problem.

This is not a Greek island never was never will be, your previous post stated it was a Cypriot island arent you contradicting yourself? All we want is what the UN and the rest of the world support a BBF with politcal equality of the 2 states, yet you want want it all the whole island under the control of Cypriots who happen to be 90% GCs.

So if the only answer is having an ethnically greek-run peaceful cyprus, than so be it. I'm no goverment offical or anything but you must agree, the having a TC run state wouldnt be any better

As I stated before 2 states under a BBF will suit us just fine but this is something GCs object to has this is not what they want a GC state run by GCs for GCs, a free hand to dominate and discriminate against TCs as they wish.

I did say it was a Cypriot island, which it is. But ethnically it is Greek. you dont even understand my point. I was in no way contradicting myself. The island has clear evidence of having a greek ethnical presence. Yes, it was ruled by venetians, arabs, and turks at one point, but the greek culture has remained and is its strongest today. youre the one bringing ethnicity into this, so i will too. I believe that Cyprus should have one identity, which cypriot, GC, TC aside. but it's people like you who seem to think that just because turkey has a presence their they have a say in everything.

and the only reason why TCs to have 2 states is so they can try to pick apart everything the GC state does and find more reasons to invade. the TC state wont be TC, it will just be a Turkish state. if all you have to say about having a GC state is the fact that turks will be descriminated against then think of something new. GCs will be descriminated agains as well.

Lets face it, all the GCs want is 1 peaceful country. thats it. and all the TCs want is another excuse is to get turkey involved in someone elses business

Nikos Sampson is it? first you claim sthenticity should go out of the window to get what you want then continue to contradict yourself yet again by claiming the island is ethnically Greek for gods sake make up your mind you cannot chage as it suits. This island was never Greek and will never be we will make sure of that. You are a bastardized people so many other ethnic groups have pssed through Cyprus that your "Greekness" at best is very doubtful and shaddy but hey whatever makes you happy.

This sudden surge of we are all Cypriots spouted out by GCs doesnt cut it with TCs it is to little to late this ideology will only evlove over many years of trust and understanding which is non exsistent between our 2 communities. As for Turkeys presence, you keep them here by your past and present actions, what do you expect us to do when when you have 20.000 troops and 120.000 armed reservists? they have acted as a deterrant for over 35 years and will continue to do so until or if ever a solution is found.

A 2 state BBF solution is backed by the world, so isnt it time you got used to the idea? If it shte guarantees you are worried about then dont do anything wrong and no one will intervene, what are you afraid of yourselves? do you think that after all the bad blood that has passed between us we should just trust you?

Why do GCs want 1 peaceful county? so they can use their numerical advantage to push us to one side discriminating against us turning us into second class citizens with no say in our own future. This we will never accept and unless safeguards and guarantees are firmly in place the current status quo can continue. So time you GCs wised up and understood you have equal partners in the north with whom you can share the whole island but not by stamping all over them and bruching them under the carpet we demand a guaranteed say in our own future,one you cannot take way when you wish.

thats exactly why we can't have a peaceful country. because you TCs arent willing to accept the fact that theres a reason why 90% of Cyprus' population is Greek. IT IS A GREEK ISLAND. but youre too stupid to understand what i'm saying. i am in no way, shape, or form contradicting myself. i am simply saying that being "Cypriot" is only a nationality, not an ethnicity. and you stupid turks can't comprehend that. i am trying to label everyone as Cypriot but all you are doing is bringing in ethnicity. if Cyprus had the support of Greece, just as the TRNC did of Turkey, Cyprus would be a Greek island right now. but Greece doesn't want that trouble. you think Turkey has any kind of say in this, which it shouldn't, but since you guys are greedy and selfish you think the whole fucking island should belong to you.

you, my friend, are naive.

[Viewpoint]

NikosGB23

thats exactly why we can't have a peaceful country. because you TCs arent willing to accept the fact that theres a reason why 90% of Cyprus' population is Greek. IT IS A GREEK ISLAND. but youre too stupid to understand what i'm saying. i am in no way, shape, or form contradicting myself. i am simply saying that being "Cypriot" is only a nationality, not an ethnicity. and you stupid turks can't comprehend that. i am trying to label everyone as Cypriot but all you are doing is bringing in ethnicity. if Cyprus had the support of Greece, just as the TRNC did of Turkey, Cyprus would be a Greek island right now. but Greece doesn't want that trouble. you think Turkey has any kind of say in this, which it shouldn't, but since you guys are greedy and selfish you think the whole fucking island should belong to you.

You are stupid for not understanding that Greek Cypriot and Greek are not the same, once you work that one out we can talk.

[Viewpoint]

The Cypriot

No, if recognition was an option certain parties would want to engineer a failure to achieve this. There will be no rejection.

Lets hope there will be no rejection but even walking away from the talks will mean steps will be taken to bring a relaxation of isolation on the TRNC as there is no hope of returning to the negotiating table how many times can we do this without a result?

I am what I am. A product of my experiences. I do not blindly follow what the politicians, the press and the text books say. I suggest you do likewise, if you don't already, as our minds are more likely to meet.

I was also educated in the UK and was an optimist like yourself but living here in the TRNC and seeing thibgs first hand meeting GCs and visiting the south and this forum has really brought home how wide the chasm is between our 2 people and that a forced solution will only bring more pain and hardship.

I would recommend that as much as is reasonably possible is done to address any genuine fears. That would be the logical, reasonable thing to do.

But our concerns seem to be trampled over by the GCs or the GCs arent showing they care about what we put forwaerd, they push forward what they think is right and show no sign of compromise.

There is not as much difference as perhaps you'd like to believe. As perhaps Turkey's military would like you to believe, for its own purposes.

Property?????
Security?????
Settlers????

Looks like the key issues to me.

We need to agree a solution, where both sides of the current divide stand to benefit, and feel safe, or the status quo remains.

I agree with you that we need a solution but dont think the status will make us just accept any solution we would rather stay as we are than be a minority in a GC state run by GCs who have shown in the past how they deal with TCs.