Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

100% of CY belongs to the tissies and 100% belongs to the grissies.

Isn't that one of the things we mean when we speak of "equal communities"?

Not in Turkish it ain't :):) and my Turkish is limited ...... translation ...... what's mine is mine n what's yours is mine also ......

[Kikapu]

What do people think obvioulsy we cannot agree a solution as the chasm is clearly to wide so we will all gradually start to realize that a clean break is the best bet and has worked for 35 years. Would everyone accept the above split?

The chasm is wide and will get even wider, but not with whom you think though.!

The chasm is getting wider between the "trnc" and the EU Principles and the longer there is no solution based on the EU Principles, there will be even more hurdles for the "trnc" to jump in the future, such as ECJ rulings and any other policies that the EU may set for themselves.

Just look and see how much easier it would have been for the "trnc" to have had a settlement before 2004, before the RoC became a EU member, but unfortunately, greed had set in and the AP was overloaded with unacceptable policies and terms. I guess someone forgot to tell the "trnc" that, "if something is too good to be true, it often is" and the 2004 AP was such a case which fizzled away. Had it been a more balanced and just peace plan, it would have passed without all the headaches the "trnc" and Turkey faces today.

So, to answer your question, the 80%-20% may have been attractive consideration for the GCs before 2004, but since then them being in the EU with all the EU Principles that will apply in any settlement, the stock value of your 80%-20% have lost a lot of ground, I'm afraid, specially when the RoC has got the "trnc" and Turkey right where she wants them, politically speaking of course. My guess is, if you want your offer for a "clean break", you gonna have to sweeten your offer a bit. What is it.?

But before you answer that question, there are other things to consider.

First of all, Turkey has never shown any inclination for the north to become an independent and sovereign country, so that is a negative for you. Secondly, the moment the EU talks with Turkey is suspended come this December, unless she opens her ports to the RoC's planes and ships with full recognition of the RoC, I expect her stock market will take a 30% dive followed by the Turkish Lira on the same day. I don't even want to think about what will happen on the second day.! If you thought the Turks in general did not like TCs very much before, you are going to have tsunami of hate from your average Turks in Turkey for having ruined their economy, currency and the chance to be in the EU sometime in the future. So all of a sudden, your proposal’s 80%-20% stock value has also taken a further dive. Quite frankly, I don't know what you would have left to make a deal with, because at this point if Turkey is smart, and I believe they are, they will cut a deal with the RoC that will most benefit their country of Turkey which I support for them being in the EU. Now what have you got to bargain with.?

So VP, what will be your final offer in the end.?????

You are a real doom and gloom merchant, 35 years of TRNC prove you wrong we can continue like this for as long as we wish and dont churn out the TCs are disappearing as this does not have the effect you want it to. Turkey will choose us everytime she showed this when you were foaming at the moth with the thought of recognition, what did she choose the TRNC to your dismay, you over estimate EU worth, life in Turkey does not revolve around a christian club which they have come to accept they will never be admited due to double standards, they are just going through the motions. The final blow will come when they are told to walk away but what you have to worry about is not what Turkey will do because believe me they will be fine, its what you GCs will do up the swanny without a paddle, your leverage gone forever.

Do you know who made EU laws and regulations that you think are written in stone? once you solve that you will understand why changes can be made to resolve specific situations and problems.

It may seem all doom and gloom to you, but to me, it all fits in place since Time Does Not Stand Still and everything is always changing. Before 2004 you never asked for a 80%-20%, so why not.?? Let me guess and say, you did not need to, because the Cyprus problem was sorted out in '74, but today, 5 years after the RoC becoming a member of the EU, things have taken a 180° turn for you. Well, I guess shit happens after all and now looking for ways to try and keep 20% legally than 37% illegally. There is nothing wrong with your thinking, except for the fact, you have chosen the wrong time to do it, by at least 5 years to be exact.

I don't know anything about foaming in the mouth in the prospect of Turkey recognising the RoC over the "trnc". I was not around at that time on the forum. You must have gotten me mistaken by someone else. But I will be around in December to see what happens between Turkey and the EU. I hope for Turkey’s sake, they make the right decision.

Do you know who made EU laws and regulations that you think are written in stone? once you solve that you will understand why changes can be made to resolve specific situations and problems.

No I don't, but I'm sure you are going to tell me.

This should be interesting to read, that the 27 nation block is going to change their EU principles to accommodate the 100,000 TCs with policies that goes against all their principles by allowing Racist , Undemocratic, violation of Human Rights and International laws. I think you must have gotten the EU mixed up with what South Africa was 20 years ago.! Just a hunch.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

It may seem all doom and gloom to you, but to me, it all fits in place since Time Does Not Stand Still and everything is always changing. Before 2004 you never asked for a 80%-20%, so why not.?? Let me guess and say, you did not need to, because the Cyprus problem was sorted out in '74, but today, 5 years after the RoC becoming a member of the EU, things have taken a 180° turn for you. Well, I guess shit happens after all and now looking for ways to try and keep 20% legally than 37% illegally. There is nothing wrong with your thinking, except for the fact, you have chosen the wrong time to do it, by at least 5 years to be exact.

This is where your memory has let you down and as you do make things up as you go along I have even accepted 18% for a clean break but I do not think this would be accepted by the majority of TCs, you can stimulate your own mindset by painting pictures of our demise but we have been around for 450 years and we will be around for a lot longer now that we have our own space recognized or not its worth much more than being exposed to GC injustice and discrimination.

One point I do agree with you on is the time does not stand still and opinions do change as other nations realize that unification will not be reached and that they can benefit from the current division or recognition, they will do what they wish not what some spoilt 800.000 GCs demand. You are one to count your chickens before they hatch, I am not and prefer to know that we are here for the long haul and that if nothing better is put before us that we can commit to we will continue as we are which is far better than anything we would be forced into and exposed to by GCs.

I don't know anything about foaming in the mouth in the prospect of Turkey recognising the RoC over the "trnc". I was not around at that time on the forum. You must have gotten me mistaken by someone else. But I will be around in December to see what happens between Turkey and the EU. I hope for Turkey’s sake, they make the right decision.

Ho your foaming is clear for all to see we all read where you get excited and how you love running the TCs into the ground at every opportunity but remember Turkey is a tough cookie and always performs best under pressure, will you suprised if they come up smelling roses and the GCs walk away with nothing yet again???? Will you make some slimey excuse and avoid saying that I was right,never under estimate Turkey it was a mistake in 1974 and will be the same in 2009.

No I don't, but I'm sure you are going to tell me.

This should be interesting to read, that the 27 nation block is going to change their EU principles to accommodate the 100,000 TCs with policies that goes against all their principles by allowing Racist , Undemocratic, violation of Human Rights and International laws. I think you must have gotten the EU mixed up with what South Africa was 20 years ago.! Just a hunch.!

The EU will sell their mothers if they are to benefit, their hands are burnt by the hot potatoe you put there, the first opportunity and they will happily accept derrogrations to drop you like a hot potato you really are. Man made laws can always be changed and amended, its standard practice and not written in stone. If the EU can back the AP they can do many things to accomadate a solution.

[Nikitas]

Obviously someone has done the sums needed to compensate for properties and finally realised that a more equitable territorial arrangement will be a way out of that impasse.

A 80-20 split would also give a very, and I mean a VERY good excuse to the TCs to stop Turkish settelement by pleading lack of territory. It is after all better to be your own master on 20 per cent than a slave in 37 per cent.

Nami told Politis last week that the money for property comensation would come from "international donors". In the present itnernational climate I do not see many donors coming forth offering to pay money so that TCs can hold on to property which the ECHR has repeatedly judged does not belong to them.

Someone above mentioned Megali Idea yet again. This slogan, like Enosis, seems to mean a lot to some posters. For the sake of historic accuracy Megali Idea never included Cyprus, check your history books.

Shah mentioned that Turkey has defeated Greece twice. Again a misreading of history. The modern Greek state through a series of succesful military actions multiplied the area of territory it liberated from the Ottoman Empire. With the exception of 1897 and 1922 I do not see any other campaigns that Greece lost, and even in those it did not lose any national territory. Which proves what I had said above, all armies can be defeated and the Turkish army has had its share of defeats. No matter what generals tell you, in war there are no certainties. Remember Israel and Lebanon? Who would ever have thought it!

[Kikapu]

This is where your memory has let you down and as you do make things up as you go along I have even accepted 18% for a clean break but I do not think this would be accepted by the majority of TCs, you can stimulate your own mindset by painting pictures of our demise but we have been around for 450 years and we will be around for a lot longer now that we have our own space recognized or not its worth much more than being exposed to GC injustice and discrimination.

No VP, my memory has not let me down as always since my memory is sharp as a tack. If anything has let anyone down, is the lack of your ability to read and understand the English language, which has let you down many times in the past. I said that before 2004 you would not have considered a 18%, because as far as you were concerned, the Cyprus problem was solved with you (Turkey) holding 37%. But since 2004 when the RoC became a EU member, all of a sudden the Cyprus problem was not so quite over yet, hence the fact in your willingness to settle for a legal ownership of 18% over illegal occupation of 37%. As I've stated earlier, your "offer" may have been somewhat agreeable to the RoC before 2004, but right now, I really do not think you are in a position to make such an offer when you don't have any legal claim to the north what so ever, hence the fact the talks are based on Federated states under one Federal government and not as two founding states (virgin birth) which would give you ownership of what ever land is in the north's "founding state".

One point I do agree with you on is the time does not stand still and opinions do change as other nations realize that unification will not be reached and that they can benefit from the current division or recognition, they will do what they wish not what some spoilt 800.000 GCs demand. You are one to count your chickens before they hatch, I am not and prefer to know that we are here for the long haul and that if nothing better is put before us that we can commit to we will continue as we are which is far better than anything we would be forced into and exposed to by GCs.

Do as you please, but also know that time is not on your side. Your 450 year history in Cyprus as a Cypriot will be forever lost with your present mindset and all you would become eventually, is a diluted Turk which will be seen by the RoC as nothing but Illegal Aliens, and in time they will leave the island when Turkey's interests in wanting to be in the EU will outweigh on holding onto that piece of land in Cyprus, which is miniscule in relationship to overall territory of Turkey, you would have helped in a major way to turn Cyprus into a "Greek" island.

If the RoC in demanding True Democracy, Human Rights and International laws to be the norm in Cyprus for all Cypriots is the demand of “spoiled” 800,000 GCs according to you, then good luck in finding anyone in the 27 EU club nations to support you in denying the RoC of such rights but instead support your version of "Democracy" which is nothing but a Racist, Undemocratic and violations of Human Rights and International laws. If your demands were agreeable to the UN and the EU, you would not be in isolation today but instead a recognised country with all the rights of any other nation. Clearly, you are not, therefore what the RoC will demand as a full member of the EU are very legitimate, because your demands cannot be accepted by any of the "spoiled" 450 million citizens in the EU.

Ho your foaming is clear for all to see we all read where you get excited and how you love running the TCs into the ground at every opportunity but remember Turkey is a tough cookie and always performs best under pressure, will you suprised if they come up smelling roses and the GCs walk away with nothing yet again???? Will you make some slimey excuse and avoid saying that I was right,never under estimate Turkey it was a mistake in 1974 and will be the same in 2009.

I only challage the ideas and foolish propagandas of Fascists NeoPartitionist and the "trnc", since it seems like in everything you do in the north tends to go against UN resolutions, EU Principles and against International Laws, and you expect me to accept all this rubbish and not make any comments, and when I do, you label it as "foaming in the mouth". Well, I can assure you, if the actions by the above culprits were honourable, you will find me in support of their policies to bring the TC's into the 21st century world and not the world you want to keep them in, which is the 16th century ideology. No my friend, I do not take pleasure in tearing you and all the Fascist down with all your Racist and Fascistic ideologies with constant lies, exaggerations and deceptive propaganda for my own enjoyment, but rather to show others that not all TCs are like your kind and that there are many decent TCs who do accept the values of the west and want to be part of the EU as equal citizens and with all their right preserved as equal citizens of Cyprus as well. We do not need to deny others their rights so that we can have more than our next door neighbour in the same country and expect to be treated fairly without hostilities as the case was in the 1960's. Repeating past mistakes can only mean repeating past problems. I will not allow that to happen, and that's why I'm always defending the interests of the decent TCs who do not share your views and your intentions of remaining in a "corrupted society" that your kind has built in the north which has gotten you nowhere other than to be treated as an outcast by the rest of the world. Decent TCs deserve much more than what your kind have prepared for them. It's time to move forward and leave the past behind, and that's what we want and that’s what we will get.!

The EU will sell their mothers if they are to benefit, their hands are burnt by the hot potatoe you put there, the first opportunity and they will happily accept derrogrations to drop you like a hot potato you really are. Man made laws can always be changed and amended, its standard practice and not written in stone. If the EU can back the AP they can do many things to accomadate a solution.

I thought you were going to surprise and shock me by stating that it is the "trnc" who makes up the EU laws. Now I am disappointed to learn that it is not the case.!

You overestimate the "trnc" worth to the EU in order for them to support your policies for a settlement. No matter how the RoC gotten into the EU is no longer a debate worth talking about, other than to say, the EU knew what they were doing in allowing the RoC into the union before a settlement. By doing what they did, is the only reason why there are peace talks, otherwise it would be as it was before 2004, and the second reason as to why the RoC was allowed to join, was to have a veto power over Turkey to level the playing field in finding a solution, and the EU had succeeded with their plans. All that remains to happen, is for Turkey to accept the present political atmosphere and everyone can be friends in the EU as soon as Turkey reforms her country, which I for one will support their membership in the EU where as you will not, so that you can maintain your "spoils of war". That's the difference between us, where I'm in favour of us earning our rights and our place in a civilized society as a EU citizens and as a equal citizens in Cyprus, where as you want to maintain injustices in place for your own benefit and wanting to be part of the EU at the same time. Sorry, no can do and if you haven't learned that you will not get what you want, especially after 2004, it is no wonder why you want to settle for a 80%-20%. If you want to continue with your present Fascistic views, then I would recommend that you take the 80%-20% if it's offered to you, but somehow, it will not be and your counter offer can only be in the single digits if it were to have any appeal to the RoC, specially after 2004. But even if the single digit offer was to be acceptable to the RoC, it will mean that the "trnc" and Turkey will be vetoed out of the EU by the RoC. Timing is everything sometimes and the train for your present offer left the station in 2004.........sorry.!

[shahmaran]

Well you just mentioned 2 yourself just as I did Nikitas what are you complaining about?

I never said a word about losing territory but even more relevant to the thread, we were talking about a theoretical scenario where Greece and RoC would attack Turkey and I mentioned that they were both defeated before, nothing wrong there.

Greece attacked Turkey 2 times and lost both, how is that "misreading history", I think you are twisting my words or not reading carefully again Sir.

On the other hand, if you are talking about the Ottoman territories being taken back during her collapse, that's a whole other issue and definitely not Greece's "successful military actions" alone.

Greece was ruled for 600 years, what "serious military actions" ?

They fought a collapsing Empire, not modern Turkey...

Both Greece and RoC have a long way to go in order to challenge Turkey militarily.

[Viewpoint]

This is where your memory has let you down and as you do make things up as you go along I have even accepted 18% for a clean break but I do not think this would be accepted by the majority of TCs, you can stimulate your own mindset by painting pictures of our demise but we have been around for 450 years and we will be around for a lot longer now that we have our own space recognized or not its worth much more than being exposed to GC injustice and discrimination.

No VP, my memory has not let me down as always since my memory is sharp as a tack. If anything has let anyone down, is the lack of your ability to read and understand the English language, which has let you down many times in the past. I said that before 2004 you would not have considered a 18%, because as far as you were concerned, the Cyprus problem was solved with you (Turkey) holding 37%. But since 2004 when the RoC became a EU member, all of a sudden the Cyprus problem was not so quite over yet, hence the fact in your willingness to settle for a legal ownership of 18% over illegal occupation of 37%. As I've stated earlier, your "offer" may have been somewhat agreeable to the RoC before 2004, but right now, I really do not think you are in a position to make such an offer when you don't have any legal claim to the north what so ever, hence the fact the talks are based on Federated states under one Federal government and not as two founding states (virgin birth) which would give you ownership of what ever land is in the north's "founding state".

One point I do agree with you on is the time does not stand still and opinions do change as other nations realize that unification will not be reached and that they can benefit from the current division or recognition, they will do what they wish not what some spoilt 800.000 GCs demand. You are one to count your chickens before they hatch, I am not and prefer to know that we are here for the long haul and that if nothing better is put before us that we can commit to we will continue as we are which is far better than anything we would be forced into and exposed to by GCs.

Do as you please, but also know that time is not on your side. Your 450 year history in Cyprus as a Cypriot will be forever lost with your present mindset and all you would become eventually, is a diluted Turk which will be seen by the RoC as nothing but Illegal Aliens, and in time they will leave the island when Turkey's interests in wanting to be in the EU will outweigh on holding onto that piece of land in Cyprus, which is miniscule in relationship to overall territory of Turkey, you would have helped in a major way to turn Cyprus into a "Greek" island.

If the RoC in demanding True Democracy, Human Rights and International laws to be the norm in Cyprus for all Cypriots is the demand of “spoiled” 800,000 GCs according to you, then good luck in finding anyone in the 27 EU club nations to support you in denying the RoC of such rights but instead support your version of "Democracy" which is nothing but a Racist, Undemocratic and violations of Human Rights and International laws. If your demands were agreeable to the UN and the EU, you would not be in isolation today but instead a recognised country with all the rights of any other nation. Clearly, you are not, therefore what the RoC will demand as a full member of the EU are very legitimate, because your demands cannot be accepted by any of the "spoiled" 450 million citizens in the EU.

Ho your foaming is clear for all to see we all read where you get excited and how you love running the TCs into the ground at every opportunity but remember Turkey is a tough cookie and always performs best under pressure, will you suprised if they come up smelling roses and the GCs walk away with nothing yet again???? Will you make some slimey excuse and avoid saying that I was right,never under estimate Turkey it was a mistake in 1974 and will be the same in 2009.

I only challage the ideas and foolish propagandas of Fascists NeoPartitionist and the "trnc", since it seems like in everything you do in the north tends to go against UN resolutions, EU Principles and against International Laws, and you expect me to accept all this rubbish and not make any comments, and when I do, you label it as "foaming in the mouth". Well, I can assure you, if the actions by the above culprits were honourable, you will find me in support of their policies to bring the TC's into the 21st century world and not the world you want to keep them in, which is the 16th century ideology. No my friend, I do not take pleasure in tearing you and all the Fascist down with all your Racist and Fascistic ideologies with constant lies, exaggerations and deceptive propaganda for my own enjoyment, but rather to show others that not all TCs are like your kind and that there are many decent TCs who do accept the values of the west and want to be part of the EU as equal citizens and with all their right preserved as equal citizens of Cyprus as well. We do not need to deny others their rights so that we can have more than our next door neighbour in the same country and expect to be treated fairly without hostilities as the case was in the 1960's. Repeating past mistakes can only mean repeating past problems. I will not allow that to happen, and that's why I'm always defending the interests of the decent TCs who do not share your views and your intentions of remaining in a "corrupted society" that your kind has built in the north which has gotten you nowhere other than to be treated as an outcast by the rest of the world. Decent TCs deserve much more than what your kind have prepared for them. It's time to move forward and leave the past behind, and that's what we want and that’s what we will get.!

The EU will sell their mothers if they are to benefit, their hands are burnt by the hot potatoe you put there, the first opportunity and they will happily accept derrogrations to drop you like a hot potato you really are. Man made laws can always be changed and amended, its standard practice and not written in stone. If the EU can back the AP they can do many things to accomadate a solution.

I thought you were going to surprise and shock me by stating that it is the "trnc" who makes up the EU laws. Now I am disappointed to learn that it is not the case.!

You overestimate the "trnc" worth to the EU in order for them to support your policies for a settlement. No matter how the RoC gotten into the EU is no longer a debate worth talking about, other than to say, the EU knew what they were doing in allowing the RoC into the union before a settlement. By doing what they did, is the only reason why there are peace talks, otherwise it would be as it was before 2004, and the second reason as to why the RoC was allowed to join, was to have a veto power over Turkey to level the playing field in finding a solution, and the EU had succeeded with their plans. All that remains to happen, is for Turkey to accept the present political atmosphere and everyone can be friends in the EU as soon as Turkey reforms her country, which I for one will support their membership in the EU where as you will not, so that you can maintain your "spoils of war". That's the difference between us, where I'm in favour of us earning our rights and our place in a civilized society as a EU citizens and as a equal citizens in Cyprus, where as you want to maintain injustices in place for your own benefit and wanting to be part of the EU at the same time. Sorry, no can do and if you haven't learned that you will not get what you want, especially after 2004, it is no wonder why you want to settle for a 80%-20%. If you want to continue with your present Fascistic views, then I would recommend that you take the 80%-20% if it's offered to you, but somehow, it will not be and your counter offer can only be in the single digits if it were to have any appeal to the RoC, specially after 2004. But even if the single digit offer was to be acceptable to the RoC, it will mean that the "trnc" and Turkey will be vetoed out of the EU by the RoC. Timing is everything sometimes and the train for your present offer left the station in 2004.........sorry.!

I disagree with everthing you say and you are proof enough why there will never be a solution, our differencies are to far to wide to bridge and forcing us to live in a united Cyprus without our commitment would be explosive as it is not the knife we oppose but the surgeon that will place that knife to our throats at the first opportunity. If the talks fail things will change completely and we will pursue other options it doesnt matter if we are recognized or not the current situation is preferred to unification with a crazied surgeon.

Once you realize this facts you will understand why safeguards and guarantees are necessary to stop that surgeon from perfroming operations as he sees fit.

[NikosGB23]

How about we get rid of the TRNC and live as normal people, not divided, all differences aside?

[Viewpoint]

How about we get rid of the TRNC and live as normal people, not divided, all differences aside?

Who will run the country? how will the TCs get a look in? how will you stop discriminative practices? what will do with security issues or the settlers? you appear very naive.

[NikosGB23]

How about we get rid of the TRNC and live as normal people, not divided, all differences aside?

Who will run the country? how will the TCs get a look in? how will you stop discriminative practices? what will do with security issues or the settlers? you appear very naive.

Naive? Are you saying being an optomist is being naive? I'm sorry, you're right this illegal TRNC is working great.

Look, all countries will have their issues such as the ones you have listed above, that's just the way the world is. We can't cure every problem existing on the island, but we can at least get rid of one of the most biggest problems here. I believe getting rid of the TRNC is a start.

Who will run the country? I have an idea. Cypriots.