Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

YFred wrote:

"And these people took power in Cyprus but had no plans to kill a single TC. Now that is almost laughable. "

YFred, you must bear in mind that this Papapostolou guy was a sui generis personality even when you judge him agains the backdrop of the Greek junta. He was a special forces officer with very peculiar ideas. He is reputed to have been the local (in Cyprus) planner of the attempts to kill Makarios.

There are hand written texts in Papapostolou's handwriting reporting back to the Junta that Makarios was a traitor to the cause etc.

Papapostolou was withdrawn from Cyprus and retired from the army. He gave a few interviews on Greek TV about his role before 1974 as well as during the invasion when he tried to get to Cyprus with a ferry boat full of Cypriot student volunteers. Among those students were some childhood friends of mine from Famagusta. Their account of what happened differes radically from the accounts provided by Papapostolou on TV. I think the man is a nutter by the way.

Were they friends with Sampson prior to his removal from Cyprus?

[Nikitas]

YFred, do not forget the Evros agreement between chief dictator Papadopoulos and the Turkish government. It was the beginning of the end. Personally I think that the agreement contained (undisclosed till today) secret provisions forf double union.

The accident in the deal was that Makarios survived and the junta fell. So the double union could not be implemented.

I believe that the above is contained in the so called Cyprus file, which was never made public for reasons of national interest in Greece. As one politician said, making the file public would reveal the extent that the then Greek government had agreed to go regarding Cyprus. This comment says a lot.

The other fascinating aspect is that the chief perpetrator of the 15 July coup, brigadier Ioannides is in jail. He refused to accept his release from jail, preferring to die there, than to publicly state his remorse over his actions. And he has kept his mouth shut regarding the events of 1974.

[Nikitas]

There is no direct proof that Papapostolou and Sampson were friends. Having seen both on TV, and having met Sampson once when I was a child, I would say they were both of the same ideology and mind set. But I must add an observation- Sampson was a Cypriot Enosis fanatic, to him it would be unthinkable to attach any conditions to Enosis, it was either full union with Greece or nothing.

To the Greek jutna officers it was a different matter. Half of Cyprus was still a gain of territory where none existed before. Papapostolou and the rest saw things from a Greek mainlanders point of view and I am sure they kept this view well hidden from naive Cypriots like Sampson.

[Tim Drayton]

Can a TC find the original article in www.tanea.gr ?

http://www.zaman.com.tr/haber.do?habern ... ale-edemez

You haven't even read the article that you quote, idiot. The allegation is that the Junta in Athens (which if you study the history of Cyprus a little you would discover overthrew the Makarios government in the 1974 coup) was planning to murder all the TCs after the coup. The same source also alleges that the Junta was planning to liberate Constantinople. How plausible does that sound?

[Tim Drayton]

Although the originator of this thread is clearly out of his/her depth - and why, when he recently claimed to be a TC is he/she asking if any TC can identify the original text - and has no idea what he/she is talking about, the article that he provides a link to actually contains some pertinent - if not particularly novel - points. Here is my translation of an excerpt:

ORIGINAL

Ankara'nın barış harekâtını düzenlemesine sebep olan olayların perde arkasını anlatan Stavros, Türkiye'nin adaya çıkmasının baş sorumlusu olarak 1967 yılından 1974'e kadar Yunanistan'da egemen olan Albaylar Cuntası'nı gösterdi. Eski bakan, Yunanistan'daki cuntanın bütün Kıbrıs Türklerini katletmeyi planladığını ve böylece Ankara'nın adaya müdahale gerekçesi kalmayacağını düşündüğünü açıkladı. 'Türkiye'nin zaten Kıbrıs'ı işgal etmek istediğini ve Yunan subayların adada yaptığı darbenin bu müdahaleye zemin hazırladığını' savunduğunu Stavros, cuntanın lideri Dimitrios İoannidis için 'Bilinçli bir hain değildi. O, bilinçsiz bir hain idi, saf ve aptalın biri.' ifadelerini kullandı. Eski Kıbrıslı Rum bakan, Amerika'nın da olaylardaki rolüne dikkat çekerek, "Cuntanın hamileri, Kissinger'ın adamları ve CIA Türkiye'ye haber vermişlerdi. Buna paralel olarak da bunlar, Türkiye'nin müdahale etmeyeceğine dair cuntaya teminat veriyorlardı." dedi.

TRANSLATION

Stavros, shedding light on the background to the events that caused Ankara to stage the peace operation, pointed the finger of blame for Turkey's landing on the island chiefly at the Colonels' Junta that was in charge in Greece from 1967 to 1974. The former minister explained that the Junta in Greece planned to slaughter all the Turkish Cypriots, and that they thought Ankara would then be deprived of any justification to intervene on the island. Stavros, arguing that 'Turkey in any case wished to occupy the island and the coup staged by the Greek officers paved the way for this intervention,' said the following about the Junta leader Dimitrois Ioannides: 'He was not a conscious traitor. He was an unconscious traitor, a simple and stupid person.' The former Greek Cypriot minister, drawing attention to America's role in the events, said 'the guardians of the junta, Kissinger's men and the CIA, informed Turkey. In parallel to this, they assured the junta that Turkey would not intervene.

[Tim Drayton]

What the TC Afrika newspaper has to say about these events:

http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.p ... =0&thold=0

We are still celebrating the day on which thousands of people were killed, many of whom were slaughtered or tossed into murky wells, or were buried in mass graves with bulldozers, women were raped, one quarter of the population became refugees and the island was divided into two. The Greek Cypriots, on the other hand, are mourning. July 1974 was a total disaster for Cypriots. The 15 July fascist Greek coup was followed by the 20 July Turkish military operation. All of this left in its wake heaps of ruins, around 2000 dead, roughly 1400 missing and more than 200,000 refugees. The Turkish side calls this the ‘Happy Peace Operation’, while the Greek Cypriot side refers to ‘occupation’. Cyprus has had more than its fair share of all of the barbarism that has been experienced in human history up until now.

(My translation)

[YFred]

What the TC Afrika newspaper has to say about these events:

http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.p ... =0&thold=0

We are still celebrating the day on which thousands of people were killed, many of whom were slaughtered or tossed into murky wells, or were buried in mass graves with bulldozers, women were raped, one quarter of the population became refugees and the island was divided into two. The Greek Cypriots, on the other hand, are mourning. July 1974 was a total disaster for Cypriots. The 15 July fascist Greek coup was followed by the 20 July Turkish military operation. All of this left in its wake heaps of ruins, around 2000 dead, roughly 1400 missing and more than 200,000 refugees. The Turkish side calls this the ‘Happy Peace Operation’, while the Greek Cypriot side refers to ‘occupation’. Cyprus has had more than its fair share of all of the barbarism that has been experienced in human history up until now.

(My translation)

Tim, you left out the best/last bit.
"The perpetrators of murder have not been investigated or punished. On this powder keg of an island, we still do not have peace, we only have a ceasefire."

I can understand pseudo state not investigating or punishing murders , but the Legal government?

[Nikitas]

Killing TCs in CYprus would have caused an intolerably high inernational furore and would have isolated Greece, not to mention to a full scale war with Turkey. I think Patroclos Stavrou has it all wrong on this point.

The scant evidence made public so far points to a deal in 1968 between the Junta and Turkey to proceed with double union, hence that disgusting speech by dictator Papadopoulos likening Cyprus to a woman with two lovers etc.

In 1973 Ioannides overthrew Papadopoulos after the Polytechnic revolt in Athens. Ioannides was a rabid super patriot who was more anticommunist than anti Turk. His plan was to overthorw Makarios and finish with Cyprus once and for all. If his plan had been to murder all TCs there would have been no problem making it public in the subsequent Cyprus File parliamentary probe. After all, he was by that time in jail convicted for high treason.

The Cyprus file has been sealed because publication might cause national harm, ie it will show that there was a measure of consent to the Turkish occupation even if that consent was during the dictatorship. It also would show that two other nations, namely USA and UK had colluded with the dictators and conspired to dissolve a state member of the UN.

I believe the game would have played out but for two wild cards that surfaced in the midst of what was meant to have been a managed crisis- 1- Makarios survived and inspired resistance by his followers who were the crushin majority of GCs, 2- Turkey bamboozled everyone and proceded to Attila II which was not part of the orginal plan.

[YFred]

Killing TCs in CYprus would have caused an intolerably high inernational furore and would have isolated Greece, not to mention to a full scale war with Turkey. I think Patroclos Stavrou has it all wrong on this point.

The scant evidence made public so far points to a deal in 1968 between the Junta and Turkey to proceed with double union, hence that disgusting speech by dictator Papadopoulos likening Cyprus to a woman with two lovers etc.

In 1973 Ioannides overthrew Papadopoulos after the Polytechnic revolt in Athens. Ioannides was a rabid super patriot who was more anticommunist than anti Turk. His plan was to overthorw Makarios and finish with Cyprus once and for all. If his plan had been to murder all TCs there would have been no problem making it public in the subsequent Cyprus File parliamentary probe. After all, he was by that time in jail convicted for high treason.

The Cyprus file has been sealed because publication might cause national harm, ie it will show that there was a measure of consent to the Turkish occupation even if that consent was during the dictatorship. It also would show that two other nations, namely USA and UK had colluded with the dictators and conspired to dissolve a state member of the UN.

I believe the game would have played out but for two wild cards that surfaced in the midst of what was meant to have been a managed crisis- 1- Makarios survived and inspired resistance by his followers who were the crushin majority of GCs, 2- Turkey bamboozled everyone and proceded to Attila II which was not part of the orginal plan.

Thanks for all that. Is it possible that the Atilla II was part of the original plan and is kept secret?

[Nikitas]

YFred,

If you look up Kissinger's satements you will see that he wanted the Turks to have an equal advantage in Cyprus to offset the advantage the Greeks had gained with the coup. He let it be understood that he regarded the Attila I as sufficient. This is corroborated by statements made by soldiers during the first cesefire. Their mainland Greek army officers would reassure them that the "Turks are only carrying out an exercise" and would tell them to withdraw to predetermined points.

One UN officer told me that on the Myrtou road there had been an argument, a sort of haggling, between the mainland Turk and Greek officers because the National Guard had not retreated to the west of the road. Both officers had maps with the relevant lines drawn in.

My take on this, the original beachead was a sort of guarantee to Turkey and the final division would have followed as part of a comprehensive settlement which would have been presented as a victory to the public of both Greece and Turkey. On Cyprus itself there would have been no opposition since both motherlands would have their people in power and in full control, backed by mainland armies. But Makarios survived. Never underestimate a monk.