Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

What are you talking about Oracle, we have stolen Mosques too now?

Because your entire argument is based on 500 year old tales, it is bound to fail.

Tell me why our heritage is insignificant and yours is.

We have not "borrowed" anything, we simply built Mosques on OUR country and you destroyed them while blaming us for not respecting your heritage.

It is a 2 way road Oracle, you cant ignore one of the lanes

What is it Piratis called you the other day? ... Oh yes! Straw Man!

Your summations, although frequent, are as reliable as your "history"; full of distortions and lies. You seem to take pleasure in repeating how insignificant your heritage is because, poor pitiless soul, you do not have a clue what is yours and what is stolen!

Of course all the things you steal from us and the Arabs that went before you, are now your "heritage"!

It is funny because that is what I used to tell Piratis.

I wonder from whom you first stole that, then?

His cheap argument has been easily crumbled using extracts from his own document, which he relies on so much.

To be honest, just like you, he never REALLY had a solid argument other than a fabricated history to fall back on.

Only according to you, because you cannot read independent sources without dismissing them!

And just like you, he cleverly ignores the documentation put before him while supporting the ones he provides, never mind how blatantly bias they are.

When was the last time you put forward independent documentation, shah?

Methinks this is another of your fabrications.

I have not once insisted that I feel bad about the destruction of the heritage of either side or commented on how significant/insignificant they are, as a cold blooded atheist I could not care less.

Heritage means a lot of things to many people and not just to the pious. Your wanton disregard explains a lot!

Personally, the sight of religious symbols to me is nothing but the representation of centuries long wars fought under the biggest illusion of the deepest ignorance, mankind has dwelt in throughout our entire history and still counting.

Perhaps you need to reflect on those wars and realise how wrong it is to perpetuate stealing other peoples' territory!

However what I do defend and take great pleasure in pointing out, as usual, is how bias and hypocritical GC claims generally are and how they manage to infiltrate even the most "independent" bodies.

Only you seem unable to grasp the significance of independent bodies, because you do not like what you read!

Nothing personal Oracle, you just happen to be at the front line of each one of them

I don't take anything personally, that is your weakness

In fact, the silly stance you and Piratis defend are so incredibly unique and ridiculous that I am starting to think you 2 might be the same person

There are many like Piratis who respect law, justice, human rights; and he has the patience to correct those who do not appreciate their value. Maybe you should try and evaluate the ethical and moral choices he presents you with as an opportunity for some free education .... you could end up a much better person .... too!

[shahmaran]

Oracle, if you took the time and read the "independent" documentation that he put forward (you are obviously talking with no real knowledge of anything), you could clearly see that all I had done was to point out extracts from the same document that he cleverly missed out, actually admitting that the TC community took NO part in the making of that particular research and that their figures were far from accurate thus making it a very bias research.

He was trying to cover up a key point in history with his so called "independent and VERY reliable" source.

If this is the so called "free teaching" I get from a person who uses such data to back up his racist theories then I can certainly give it a pass and it is no surprise that you would back him up.

The great thing about you people, is to know that anything you say does not really come from real fact or documentation but purely fueled by your racist hate, the rest is just detail and a matter of research.

From the moment I start reading your text I just KNOW that it is either a fat lie or a bent and bias version of the truth, because you are so out of phase with reality.

But of course who am I talking to, I mean both you and him are so far up your back sides with racism that you cannot bare to even smell a view that may cross your delusions.

The only thing that I find comfort in regarding people like you, is the fact that you are on the serious minority on both sides and if you were not, it would be extremely hard to see any hope in the future of this island.

I truly believe this!

I do not take anything personal as there is no point in doing so on a forum Oracle.

However, do not confuse this with my will to point out the hypocrisy within people like you, I think that is the duty of any human being, as racism is definitely a sub-human mindset.

[Oracle]

... you are so out of phase with reality.

My reality is scores of Turkish troops occupying nearly half my country and violently threatening my people against returning to their homes! Instead the Turks give my peoples' homes to those of their choosing.

That is morally, ethically and legally wrong according to ALL members of Mankind

You are the one trying to phase out this reality!

[shahmaran]

... you are so out of phase with reality.

My reality is scores of Turkish troops occupying nearly half my country and violently threatening my people against returning to their homes! Instead the Turks give my peoples' homes to those of their choosing.

That is morally, ethically and legally wrong according to ALL members of Mankind

You are the one trying to phase out this reality!

Again, that sounds like a selective-amnesiac version of reality Oracle..

[samarkeolog]

Good post Cypriot!

Where is Samarkeolog?

On my way!

I'm trying to get hold of the full 50-page report...

[samarkeolog]

Before I say anything else, let me again, as always, say that yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been stolen, either out of the ground, or out of homes and churches; and yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been damaged, some of it even destroyed. I'm not denying that, or downplaying that; a lot of my work has been on that looting and violence.

Okay, I haven't been able to get hold of the full report yet, and I haven't read through the unofficial transcript of the hearing yet, but having read the press release and the newspaper article, my initial concerns would be:

(1) the ricockulous title: "Destruction of Cultural Property in the Northern Part of Cyprus and Violations of International Law".

If it doesn't study destruction in the southern part of Cyprus, too, it is obviously, necessarily, going to produce a biased report.

(2) the word games: "The report by the U.S. Helsinki Commission, which monitors compliance with agreements among members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, included this claim [of damage to/destruction of 103 mosques] by Turkey. But the report also added that Cyprus, which exercises effective control over the southern two-thirds of the island, has spent about $600,000 since 2000 to renovate 17 historic mosques."

As Prof. Jerome Bowers said in the article - as the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe documented - it is absolutely certain that a mosque in Paphos was destroyed during the intercommunal conflict. If the report is going to deny that (and other) destruction, or exclude it by excluding anything that happened anywhere in southern Cyprus ever, it's going to be a historically inaccurate and socially harmful report.

It is true and good that the RoC has spent money on restoration, but to say that without saying what damage and destruction happened before the restoration is denial of the damage and destruction; it makes it sound like the places decayed naturally. Look at Evdimou Mosque, which the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe noted had been virtually rebuilt (which must have cost money); it had to be rebuilt because it had been destroyed.

(3) the witnesses at the hearing are all Greek Cypriot-aligned.

It's all well and good to have Greek Cypriot-aligned witnesses, to ensure that damage to and destruction of Greek Cypriot objects and buildings is documented, that Greek Cypriot suffering is recognised.

But it is unfair and biased not to have Turkish Cypriot-aligned witnesses, too.

It is absurd that they have the fantastic, bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, but apparently did not call it as a witness.

And it is a huge, huge problem if the witnesses they call are unreliable. I don't know about Chotzakoglou; I'm not sure about Gallas (although I remember him accusing the TRNC of giving an export licence for smuggled antiquities, when everybody else accepted that the licence had been forged, so he seems unreliable).

But I've read Michael Jansen's 1986 article and 2005 book, and her more recent speeches and papers, and she is a poor scholar and a worse propagandist, who misuses sources, including the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe's report and the Cyprus Temples project's remarkable work.

[The Cypriot]

Before I say anything else, let me again, as always, say that yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been stolen, either out of the ground, or out of homes and churches; and yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been damaged, some of it even destroyed. I'm not denying that, or downplaying that; a lot of my work has been on that looting and violence.

Okay, I haven't been able to get hold of the full report yet, and I haven't read through the unofficial transcript of the hearing yet, but having read the press release and the newspaper article, my initial concerns would be:

(1) the ricockulous title: "Destruction of Cultural Property in the Northern Part of Cyprus and Violations of International Law".

If it doesn't study destruction in the southern part of Cyprus, too, it is obviously, necessarily, going to produce a biased report.

(2) the word games: "The report by the U.S. Helsinki Commission, which monitors compliance with agreements among members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, included this claim [of damage to/destruction of 103 mosques] by Turkey. But the report also added that Cyprus, which exercises effective control over the southern two-thirds of the island, has spent about $600,000 since 2000 to renovate 17 historic mosques."

As Prof. Jerome Bowers said in the article - as the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe documented - it is absolutely certain that a mosque in Paphos was destroyed during the intercommunal conflict. If the report is going to deny that (and other) destruction, or exclude it by excluding anything that happened anywhere in southern Cyprus ever, it's going to be a historically inaccurate and socially harmful report.

It is true and good that the RoC has spent money on restoration, but to say that without saying what damage and destruction happened before the restoration is denial of the damage and destruction; it makes it sound like the places decayed naturally. Look at Evdimou Mosque, which the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe noted had been virtually rebuilt (which must have cost money); it had to be rebuilt because it had been destroyed.

(3) the witnesses at the hearing are all Greek Cypriot-aligned.

It's all well and good to have Greek Cypriot-aligned witnesses, to ensure that damage to and destruction of Greek Cypriot objects and buildings is documented, that Greek Cypriot suffering is recognised.

But it is unfair and biased not to have Turkish Cypriot-aligned witnesses, too.

It is absurd that they have the fantastic, bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, but apparently did not call it as a witness.

And it is a huge, huge problem if the witnesses they call are unreliable. I don't know about Chotzakoglou; I'm not sure about Gallas (although I remember him accusing the TRNC of giving an export licence for smuggled antiquities, when everybody else accepted that the licence had been forged, so he seems unreliable).

But I've read Michael Jansen's 1986 article and 2005 book, and her more recent speeches and papers, and she is a poor scholar and a worse propagandist, who misuses sources, including the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe's report and the Cyprus Temples project's remarkable work.

Hi samarkeolog.... thanks for this post. Some food for thought.

[EPSILON]

Before I say anything else, let me again, as always, say that yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been stolen, either out of the ground, or out of homes and churches; and yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been damaged, some of it even destroyed. I'm not denying that, or downplaying that; a lot of my work has been on that looting and violence.

Okay, I haven't been able to get hold of the full report yet, and I haven't read through the unofficial transcript of the hearing yet, but having read the press release and the newspaper article, my initial concerns would be:

(1) the ricockulous title: "Destruction of Cultural Property in the Northern Part of Cyprus and Violations of International Law".

If it doesn't study destruction in the southern part of Cyprus, too, it is obviously, necessarily, going to produce a biased report.

(2) the word games: "The report by the U.S. Helsinki Commission, which monitors compliance with agreements among members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, included this claim [of damage to/destruction of 103 mosques] by Turkey. But the report also added that Cyprus, which exercises effective control over the southern two-thirds of the island, has spent about $600,000 since 2000 to renovate 17 historic mosques."

As Prof. Jerome Bowers said in the article - as the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe documented - it is absolutely certain that a mosque in Paphos was destroyed during the intercommunal conflict. If the report is going to deny that (and other) destruction, or exclude it by excluding anything that happened anywhere in southern Cyprus ever, it's going to be a historically inaccurate and socially harmful report.

It is true and good that the RoC has spent money on restoration, but to say that without saying what damage and destruction happened before the restoration is denial of the damage and destruction; it makes it sound like the places decayed naturally. Look at Evdimou Mosque, which the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe noted had been virtually rebuilt (which must have cost money); it had to be rebuilt because it had been destroyed.

(3) the witnesses at the hearing are all Greek Cypriot-aligned.

It's all well and good to have Greek Cypriot-aligned witnesses, to ensure that damage to and destruction of Greek Cypriot objects and buildings is documented, that Greek Cypriot suffering is recognised.

But it is unfair and biased not to have Turkish Cypriot-aligned witnesses, too.

It is absurd that they have the fantastic, bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, but apparently did not call it as a witness.

And it is a huge, huge problem if the witnesses they call are unreliable. I don't know about Chotzakoglou; I'm not sure about Gallas (although I remember him accusing the TRNC of giving an export licence for smuggled antiquities, when everybody else accepted that the licence had been forged, so he seems unreliable).

But I've read Michael Jansen's 1986 article and 2005 book, and her more recent speeches and papers, and she is a poor scholar and a worse propagandist, who misuses sources, including the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe's report and the Cyprus Temples project's remarkable work.

The position that rebuild means destruction is wrong.Apostolos Antreas never destroyed by anybody but only by the the force of time.!!!

[samarkeolog]

Before I say anything else, let me again, as always, say that yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been stolen, either out of the ground, or out of homes and churches; and yes, a fuck of a lot of stuff has been damaged, some of it even destroyed. I'm not denying that, or downplaying that; a lot of my work has been on that looting and violence.

Okay, I haven't been able to get hold of the full report yet, and I haven't read through the unofficial transcript of the hearing yet, but having read the press release and the newspaper article, my initial concerns would be:

(1) the ricockulous title: "Destruction of Cultural Property in the Northern Part of Cyprus and Violations of International Law".

If it doesn't study destruction in the southern part of Cyprus, too, it is obviously, necessarily, going to produce a biased report.

(2) the word games: "The report by the U.S. Helsinki Commission, which monitors compliance with agreements among members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, included this claim [of damage to/destruction of 103 mosques] by Turkey. But the report also added that Cyprus, which exercises effective control over the southern two-thirds of the island, has spent about $600,000 since 2000 to renovate 17 historic mosques."

As Prof. Jerome Bowers said in the article - as the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe documented - it is absolutely certain that a mosque in Paphos was destroyed during the intercommunal conflict. If the report is going to deny that (and other) destruction, or exclude it by excluding anything that happened anywhere in southern Cyprus ever, it's going to be a historically inaccurate and socially harmful report.

It is true and good that the RoC has spent money on restoration, but to say that without saying what damage and destruction happened before the restoration is denial of the damage and destruction; it makes it sound like the places decayed naturally. Look at Evdimou Mosque, which the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe noted had been virtually rebuilt (which must have cost money); it had to be rebuilt because it had been destroyed.

(3) the witnesses at the hearing are all Greek Cypriot-aligned.

It's all well and good to have Greek Cypriot-aligned witnesses, to ensure that damage to and destruction of Greek Cypriot objects and buildings is documented, that Greek Cypriot suffering is recognised.

But it is unfair and biased not to have Turkish Cypriot-aligned witnesses, too.

It is absurd that they have the fantastic, bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, but apparently did not call it as a witness.

And it is a huge, huge problem if the witnesses they call are unreliable. I don't know about Chotzakoglou; I'm not sure about Gallas (although I remember him accusing the TRNC of giving an export licence for smuggled antiquities, when everybody else accepted that the licence had been forged, so he seems unreliable).

But I've read Michael Jansen's 1986 article and 2005 book, and her more recent speeches and papers, and she is a poor scholar and a worse propagandist, who misuses sources, including the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe's report and the Cyprus Temples project's remarkable work.

The position that rebuild means destruction is wrong.Apostolos Antreas never destroyed by anybody but only by the the force of time.!!!

I didn't say that any restoration was always proof of destruction. Lots of places in northern Cyprus only need restoration because they have decayed (not because they have been damaged or destroyed).

But Evdimou Mosque had been destroyed.

[samarkeolog]

My first thoughts - based on the public sources of information - are basically that:

(1) they are not doing two reports, or a number of them, one on each aspect of the problem. The only report, "Destruction of Cultural Property in the Northern Part of Cyprus and Violations of International Law", has automatically excluded any destruction of cultural property in the southern part of Cyprus. That can only be a deliberate bias, and proof of the untrustworthy nature of the report.

(2) that it is impossible not to think this report has been made this week to exploit the anniversary. It is an abuse of the emotions of Greek Cypriot victims as much as it is a denial of the suffering of the Turkish Cypriots.

I don't think I'm going to enjoy reading the hearing or the report...