Cyprus-Forum.com

[Turan Tankgirl]

As a an inhabitant of the province of Brabant in Holland the discussion reminds me the famous words of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Destr%C3%A9e

As a paraphrase I notice that there are no Cypriots, Sire. There are Greek and Turk Cypriots. But Cypriots ? Light me a candle.

[Get Real!]

As a paraphrase I notice that there are no Cypriots, Sire. There are Greek and Turk Cypriots. But Cypriots ? Light me a candle.

I could light you two candles but if you’re blind what good will it do?

[samarkeolog]

The GCs also destroyed lots of mosques and damaged lots of others. (And many of the damaged or destroyed churches were damaged or destroyed by TCs.)

This is where numbers would serve a purpose, if only to shut you up with trying to make out the magnitude was the same and hence tarring the GCs with the same brush as the Turks. This is unhelpful, not because we wish propaganda, but a rightful end to the atrocities on our island. Do not fall victim to the liberalist view that everything in life is equal ... Sometimes one party really is more destructive than the other!

I can't remember claiming the destruction was precisely equal. I can remember saying that the amount of destruction of Turkish Cypriot cultural heritage was unknown. I also remember explaining that that was why I had to spend more time finding out about it. There has been a lot of destruction of Turkish Cypriot cultural heritage. See Cyprus Temples.

In 2007, the RoC said that 25/520 churches had been demolished, that is, 4.81%.

I believe, the last time I counted, Cyprus Temples project had published the records from 85 mosques, and 11 of them had been demolished. (There were some called ruins, the walls of which were still standing, but others called ruins which had been razed to the ground. I ignored any that were half-demolished, or that had "only" had the minaret demolished.)

Even if we consider those 11 within the 115 mosques Cyprus Temples studied (ignoring the fact that some of the unpublished mosques might have been demolished; ignoring the fact that some of the mosques in northern Cyprus had also been demolished; etc., etc., etc.), 11/115 is 9.56%.

So, a greater number of churches were destroyed (again, again, again, like always, I've never denied that), but, proportionally, about twice as many of Cyprus's mosques (9.56%) were destroyed as churches (4.81%). You felt magnitude was all-important. And the Turkish Cypriots suffered a greater magnitude of destruction than the Greek Cypriots.

Akritas, EOKA-B - they didn't have any impact, or they weren't nationalists?

So tell me what they did in the few years they were reputed to have been active?

Well, as far as I know, most of the destruction of Turkish Cypriot cultural heritage happened between 1963 and 1974. Unless you're saying the mosques Cyprus Temples recorded as destroyed were destroyed by EOKA between 1955 and 1959, or by the RoC after 1974, or by ordinary villagers, then Akritas and EOKA-B (or Enosist Array or one of the other GC paramilitaries) destroyed them.

And the EOKA campaign was not just to remove the Brits, but to Hellenise the island and achieve enosis.)

Irrelevant to the context ... did they take time out to destroy Mosques? I think NOT!
Prove otherwise with more than words!

It wasn't irrelevant to the context because you called it an anti-colonial struggle. It wasn't, or, it wasn't only an anti-colonial struggle. It was a struggle for enosis, for giving away control of itself to yet another foreign power.

You may think NOT! But Nearchos Georgiades and Charalampos Chotzakoglou (and the Monastery of Kykko) agree that EOKA did damage mosques.

(Georgiades also said that they would have done far worse if they hadn't been caught, so, even if no mosques were completely destroyed by EOKA, that was only because they didn't get the chance to fulfil their wishes.)

Are you telling me you don't know of any streets named after EOKA heroes?

Yup ... my street is NOW named after an EOKA hero ... but that's because it never once in its history had a name (and was not even recognised as a street until the 90's).

You really are so out of touch with the reality on the ground!

How so? Did I deny streets previously without names had been given names, or did I say that your street's name had been changed? (No.)

Okay, if you're going to be so pedantic as to dodge my question so obviously and lazily: are you telling me you don't know of any streets whose names were changed to those of EOKA heroes?

Many of the Brits knew ancient Greek, so used that to talk with the Greek Cypriots; and being Christian, they tended to socialise with the GCs rather than the TCs. So, they produced a Hellenocentric map. The Brits made the place names less "Turkish".

What tosh! Ancient Greek speaking squaddies!

'Greek skills [were] imparted in middle-class academies.... Greek was absorbed into upper-class education.... public schools... offer[ed] detailed instruction in Greek.'

Arthur Rimbaud, for example, found work in Cyprus because he could speak Greek.

The British mapper of Cyprus, Henry Horatio Kitchener, translated Greek inscriptions.

The Brits knew the enemy were the GCs who loved Cyprus more than the expansionist opportunist Turks.

They socialised with Turk-TCs or no one ... certainly not GCs who despised them for taking away their freedom and giving inordinate power to the TCs!

Indeed, Kitchener was part of a cabinet that offered Cyprus to Greece.

You need to read history with open eyes, a questioning mind, and from disparate sources as your simplistic view is an embarrassment to your credentials.

I've already given you a tiny sample of the sources I have used (all of the ones stored in my Excel file of sites), and it showed that not only were they disparate, but they included far more Greek Cypriot/GC-aligned sources than they did Turkish Cypriot/TC-aligned.

Did they bulldoze your home?

No because it was not abandoned or in such a state of disrepair that it needed to be bulldozed for safety. But they bulldozed my aunts house just a few hundred yards away after the Paphos earthquake ... she supervised having a new one erected in its place ... but if she was abroad or "away" this may not have happened.

Sometimes these things have a perfectly innocent explanation, Mr. Angry young Man.

... And yes, the rest of your between-the-line-comments are pitifully, transparently biased ....

The ones where I cited international and bicommunal sources and told you to complain to them rather than me?

The one where I showed you even Greek Cypriot propaganda admitted damage to mosques and you said that I 'cannot find more than a small weak example, with... an ulterior motive'? That one where I pointed out 'you ignored the sentence afterwards, where I once more directed you to PACE and UNESCO's documentation of damage to and destruction of TC cultural heritage, and 'also, yet again again again again direct[ed] you to Cyprus Temples'?

I hope you have an intelligent external examiner as you need a wake up call!

I hope I do too. I want my viva to be as challenging as possible.

Look, I tried and tried and tried to talk sensibly with you, but you have continued to ignore all of the evidence I put before you, even when it comes from sources like PACE and UNESCO, and from bicommunal Cypriot studies like Cyprus Temples.

I felt it was my scholarly responsibility to present my data as I collected it, and to try to engage with the community for whom I'm doing the work. I have certainly benefited from others' corrections, and comments, and information.

I have wasted so, so, so much time trying to reason with you; but you go on and on and on like this. And the only way I can explain your behaviour is that you hope people will remember your false claims that I have biased sources and no evidence, instead of remembering the masses of varied sources I have, and the masses of real evidence I have presented.

I'm simply not going to waste any more time on it. I have better things to do with my life: going for coffee with my mate Yianni in Wood Greek, getting gyro from the Famagustan refugee kebabery down the road, listening to 103.3FM; daytime TV.

[halil]

samarkeolog ,
The destruction of Turkish Cypriot villages in southern Cyprus was not only carried out by abandoning them to ruin but in many cases the the GC's also used industrial machinery to demolish houses,raze religious sites and destroy cemeteries.In addition to this ,based on information from GC press,authentic stones from houses of Turkish Cypriot villages were dismantled and sold.

The 34 Turkish Cypriots villages which were abondoned between years 1963-1975 by Turkish Cypriots were intentionally destroyed or left to ruin.

As part of population exchange agreement the TC's moved to north from south and 158 Turkish Cypriot cities,villages and settlements were left behind in South Cyprus under the Greek Cypriots adminstration .

After the unilateral opening of the the gates by the North Cyprus Authorities on 23 april 2003 , the evaluation commitee for the the cultural assets in north and south Cyprus, established under the TRNC president office, started investigations regarding the state of the Turkish Cypriot villages in south that TC's were forced to abondon in 1963, 1968 and in 1974 by population exchange agreement.
Information and resurch from experts of history,culture and social sciences were brought together and it was clearly established that 34 Turkish Cypriots villages under the the control of the Greek Cypriot Adminstration were distroyed.

Since 1963 the various Turkish Cypriot Adminstrationes have tried to prevent further deteration of the Turkish Cypriot villages in South.

Destroyed villages are :

Paphos Province
1.Akkargi(Pitargou)
2.Beşiktepe(Melendra)
3.Dağaşan(Vretça)
4.Dereboyu(Evrotu)
5.Fesli(Faslı)
6.Finike(Finikas)
7.Gökçebel(Falia)
8.Gündoğdu(Antriluku)
9.Kervanyol-Karamulla(Karamullidhes)
10.Kurtağa(Kourttaka)
11.Kuşluca(sarama)
12.Küçüksu(Moronero)
13.Olukönü(Loukrounou)
14.Susuz(Souskiou)
15.Tabanlı-Istinco(Kio)
16.Tatlıca(Zakharia)
17.Uluçam(Marona)
18.Uzunmeşe(Trimeithousa)
19.Yakacık (Makaounta)
20.Yuvalı(Pristo)

Larnaka Province

21.Esendağ(Petrfani)
22.Üçşehitler(Goshi)
23.Softalar(Sophades)

Nicosia Province

24.Alevkaya(Alevga)
25.Zeytinlik(Eliophotes)
26.Arpalık(Aios Sozomenos)
27.Esendağ-Aybifan(Aios Epifanios)
28.Katalyonda(Kataliondas)
29.Selçuklu(Selain T'appi)
30.Yağmuralan(Vroisha)
31.Yukarı Kurtboğan(Pano Koutraphas)


Lemasol Province

32.Aşşağı Sandık (Kato Kividhes)
33.Çayönü(Paramali)
34.Yerovası(Yerovasa)

details of the villages will come later on .

[Turan Tankgirl]

As a paraphrase I notice that there are no Cypriots, Sire. There are Greek and Turk Cypriots. But Cypriots ? Light me a candle.

I could light you two candles but if you’re blind what good will it do?

Just try http://www.sint-jan.nl/kaars.html It's free

On Sunday 28/6/2009 we were inside http://www.cyprustemples.com/templedetails.asp?id=405 admired the many icons there and lit no less than 5 candles and made a donation of 10 €

The most famous church in Holland was demolished in 1566 as result of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm and from 1629 till 1810 in hands of the so called Protestants. Napoleon returned the church - who was severely damaged - to the Roman-Catholics. The total amount of restauration costs where till today more than 50.000.000 (fifty million) euro's. Just for one church. I read in the Cyrpus Star that no less than 177 wardens of musea etc will be sacked by the T.R.N.C. due to the lack of money. So who will pay the restauration of all those churches ? The E.U. ? Turkey ? I would say : ask the Church of Cyprus. I heard that she owns 20% of the whole of Cyprus !

[Oracle]

[Even if we consider those 11 within the 115 mosques Cyprus Temples studied (ignoring the fact that some of the unpublished mosques might have been demolished; ignoring the fact that some of the mosques in northern Cyprus had also been demolished; etc., etc., etc.), 11/115 is 9.56%.

So, a greater number of churches were destroyed (again, again, again, like always, I've never denied that), but, proportionally, about twice as many of Cyprus's mosques (9.56%) were destroyed as churches (4.81%). You felt magnitude was all-important. And the Turkish Cypriots suffered a greater magnitude of destruction than the Greek Cypriots.

Congratulations ... so you choose to ignore the hundreds of Churches that were stripped of antiquities, re-used as stables etc and chose something you can manipulate to suggest the TCs have suffered a greater loss. You guiltlessly ignore that nearly 100% of the Churches in the northern half are made inaccessible to the GCs, not just by being destroyed, or through cultural destruction, but also by order of Turkey to keep GCs away!


"The last church standing in north Cyprus"

How the Christian history was erased

One lone church struggles to survive in a land where hundreds have been damaged or destroyed. But this is no ordinary land; it is the very ground where Apostle Paul took his first missionary journey to proclaim salvation through Jesus Christ to the Roman Empire.

Now 2,000 years later, the small Mediterranean island of Cyprus is divided into two with the northern third occupied by Turkey. In the span of three decades under Turkish control, more than 530 churches and monasteries have been pillaged, vandalized, or destroyed in the northern area, according to The Republic of Cyprus.

"I cannot say that it (destruction of churches) is encouraged openly by the Turkish government," said Cyprus's Ambassador to the United States, Andreas Kakouris, to The Christian Post. "All I can say is that it is taking place in the area that is under direct control of the Turkish military and I leave you to make your own conclusions from that."

Since its 1974 invasion, Turkey has controlled northern Cyprus which it calls the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus." No international nation has ever recognized this entity except for Turkey. The United States has only recognized the Republic of Cyprus.

Starting in 2003, Greek-Cypriots again were allowed to cross the border between the Republic of Cyprus and the area under Turkish control. It was around this time that scholars and photographers were able to visit northern Cyprus to document the destruction of historic churches and artifacts.

St. Mamas Church in the northwest town of Morphou is the only notable church that is known to be semi-active in Turkey-controlled Cyprus, according to the New York-based Hellenic Times and the Embassy of The Republic of Cyprus in the United States. Turkish officials who rule the area reportedly give permission twice a year for remaining residents - who were there before Turkish occupation - to worship in the church.

But other churches did not fare so well.

About 133 churches, chapels and monasteries have been converted to military storage facilities, stables and night-clubs. Seventy-eight churches have been converted to mosques, and dozens more are used as military facilities, medical storage facilities, or stockyards or hay barns, according to statistics from The Republic of Cyprus.

Agia Anastasia church in Lapithos was converted into a hotel and casino, while Sourp Magar Armenian monastery - founded in the medieval period - was converted into a cafeteria.

A Neolithic settlement at the Cape of Apostolos Andreas-Kastros in the occupied area of Rizokapraso - a site declared an ancient monument by the Republic of Cyprus - was bulldozed by the Turkish Army in order to plant two of its flagpoles on top of the historic hill.

"This is not a Muslim-Christian issue," contends Ambassador Kakouris, who is a Greek Orthodox Christian.

Turkey, a constitutionally secular country, is made up of more than a 99 percent Muslim population, according to the CIA World Factbook. "I don't think the Cyprus problem has ever been a religious issue between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots," said Kakouris.

But he added that if the Turkish government hadn't given the "green light" on the destruction of churches and artifacts, they have not given the "red light" either.

"So it is ... either directly taking place or with their blind eye or whatever you want to call it. But they are responsible for what is taking place there," says Kakouris.

Furthermore, over 15,000 portable religious icons were stolen and auctioned off around the world.

Relics - which include fine icons, mosaics and frescoes from ancient Byzantine era - have turned up at auction houses around the world, including at the prestigious Sotheby's in New York.

In January 2007, six icons were returned to the Church of Cyprus after being smuggled out of the country. They were to be put up for auction at Sotheby's.

Also, back in 1988, four pieces of an invaluable work of art, dating between 525 and 530 A.D., were recovered when a Turkish art dealer offered to sell it to an American antique dealer for $1 million. The American dealer contacted the Paul Getty Museum in Malibu to resell the mosaics for $20 million. The museum then informed the Cypriot Church about the art work.

In the end, the United States courts ruled that the Cypriot Church was the legitimate owner of the pieces, and they are now shown in the Byzantine Museum of Nicosia.

It is estimated that more than 60,000 ancient artifacts have been illegally transferred to other countries, according to the Republic of Cyprus. Sadly, most of these artifacts were not recovered.

Cyprus has some of the finest collections of Byzantine art in the world, offering scholars and others the priceless study on the development of Byzantine wall-painting art from the 8th-9th century until the 18th century A.D.

The United States has recognized Cyprus' endangered cultural heritage, and in 1999 and 2003 the U.S. Treasury Department issued emergency import restrictions on Byzantine Ecclesiastical and Ritual Ethnological Materials from Cyprus.

Then in 2002, the United States and Cyprus signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) concerning the import restrictions on pre-classical and classical archeological objects from Cyprus. The MOU was amended and renewed in 2006 and 2007 to include additional artifacts.

Kakouris commented that the Cyprus issue has been ignored for decades by the United States.

"There is only so much oxygen that exists from a journalistic point of view," he said. "When one picks up the paper and looks at international issues what does one see? Either a bombing that took place in the Middle East or a bombing in Iraq or loss of life in Afghanistan - issues such as that.

He continued, "Although there are issues that appear to be more important than the Cyprus issue - because we don't have that immediacy of seeing deaths or events on a daily basis in Cyprus, and thankfully - that does not make the continuing occupation by Turkey of the northern part of Cyprus any more acceptable."

There were 20,000 Greek Cypriots in the Turkish-controlled area after 1974, but today there are about 450 Greek Cypriots remaining.


http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/pre ... church.htm

[samarkeolog]

[Even if we consider those 11 within the 115 mosques Cyprus Temples studied (ignoring the fact that some of the unpublished mosques might have been demolished; ignoring the fact that some of the mosques in northern Cyprus had also been demolished; etc., etc., etc.), 11/115 is 9.56%.

So, a greater number of churches were destroyed (again, again, again, like always, I've never denied that), but, proportionally, about twice as many of Cyprus's mosques (9.56%) were destroyed as churches (4.81%). You felt magnitude was all-important. And the Turkish Cypriots suffered a greater magnitude of destruction than the Greek Cypriots.

Congratulations ... so you choose to ignore the hundreds of Churches that were stripped of antiquities, re-used as stables etc and chose something you can manipulate to suggest the TCs have suffered a greater loss.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but one last hurrah...

I didn't ignore looting of, damage to, or reuse of churches, but I don't have numbers for the looting of and damage to mosques, so I used the thing where I had numbers for what happened, so that we could compare magnitude.

And I didn't know what the result would be when I found the numbers, so no, I didn't "cho[o]se something [I could] manipulate to suggest the TCs have suffered a greater loss".

I had been talking about damage and destruction, and you asked for numbers; I got you the numbers for destruction.

Looting was a separate business, anyway. It is pure business - the looters loot archaeological sites as well as churches, and mosques. The same Turkish deep state gang that has looted churches in northern Cyprus has looted mosques in Turkey (and when it didn't simply steal stuff, it even used the same tricks to get hold of artefacts to sell).

Even your Department of Antiquities and your Orthodox Church don't have exact numbers for looting, so there's no way you can expect me to have them.

You guiltlessly ignore that nearly 100% of the Churches in the northern half are made inaccessible to the GCs, not just by being destroyed, or through cultural destruction, but also by order of Turkey to keep GCs away!

If I'm an angry little man, why are you using (false) emotive language like 'guiltlessly'?

"The last church standing in north Cyprus"

How the Christian history was erased

Uf. Again with the lazy copy-and-pasting of this article to crowd out discussion of anything else?

One lone church struggles to survive in a land where hundreds have been damaged or destroyed. But this is no ordinary land; it is the very ground where Apostle Paul took his first missionary journey to proclaim salvation through Jesus Christ to the Roman Empire.

Now 2,000 years later, the small Mediterranean island of Cyprus is divided into two with the northern third occupied by Turkey. In the span of three decades under Turkish control, more than 530 churches and monasteries have been pillaged, vandalized, or destroyed in the northern area, according to The Republic of Cyprus.

My link was to the Republic of Cyprus, and it said there were 520 Christian buildings in northern Cyprus in total. How did Turkey mistreat more than 530?

"I cannot say that it (destruction of churches) is encouraged openly by the Turkish government," said Cyprus's Ambassador to the United States, Andreas Kakouris, to The Christian Post. "All I can say is that it is taking place in the area that is under direct control of the Turkish military and I leave you to make your own conclusions from that."

Since its 1974 invasion, Turkey has controlled northern Cyprus which it calls the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus." No international nation has ever recognized this entity except for Turkey. The United States has only recognized the Republic of Cyprus.

Starting in 2003, Greek-Cypriots again were allowed to cross the border between the Republic of Cyprus and the area under Turkish control. It was around this time that scholars and photographers were able to visit northern Cyprus to document the destruction of historic churches and artifacts.

Surprise, surprise, a sense of deja vu - it's like I've already complained about this article before.

All of the biggest and best Hellenist propaganda - Cyprus, the Plundering of a 9,000 Year-Old Civilisation (1985); Flagellum Dei (1997); Cyprus, a Civilisation Plundered (1998) - were first published before the opening of the border in 2003, and they were all full of photographs.

St. Mamas Church in the northwest town of Morphou is the only notable church that is known to be semi-active in Turkey-controlled Cyprus, according to the New York-based Hellenic Times and the Embassy of The Republic of Cyprus in the United States. Turkish officials who rule the area reportedly give permission twice a year for remaining residents - who were there before Turkish occupation - to worship in the church.

But other churches did not fare so well.

About 133 churches, chapels and monasteries have been converted to military storage facilities, stables and night-clubs. Seventy-eight churches have been converted to mosques, and dozens more are used as military facilities, medical storage facilities, or stockyards or hay barns, according to statistics from The Republic of Cyprus.

Agia Anastasia church in Lapithos was converted into a hotel and casino, while Sourp Magar Armenian monastery - founded in the medieval period - was converted into a cafeteria.

A Neolithic settlement at the Cape of Apostolos Andreas-Kastros in the occupied area of Rizokapraso - a site declared an ancient monument by the Republic of Cyprus - was bulldozed by the Turkish Army in order to plant two of its flagpoles on top of the historic hill.

"This is not a Muslim-Christian issue," contends Ambassador Kakouris, who is a Greek Orthodox Christian.

Turkey, a constitutionally secular country, is made up of more than a 99 percent Muslim population, according to the CIA World Factbook. "I don't think the Cyprus problem has ever been a religious issue between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots," said Kakouris.

But he added that if the Turkish government hadn't given the "green light" on the destruction of churches and artifacts, they have not given the "red light" either.

"So it is ... either directly taking place or with their blind eye or whatever you want to call it. But they are responsible for what is taking place there," says Kakouris.

Furthermore, over 15,000 portable religious icons were stolen and auctioned off around the world.

Relics - which include fine icons, mosaics and frescoes from ancient Byzantine era - have turned up at auction houses around the world, including at the prestigious Sotheby's in New York.

In January 2007, six icons were returned to the Church of Cyprus after being smuggled out of the country. They were to be put up for auction at Sotheby's.

Also, back in 1988, four pieces of an invaluable work of art, dating between 525 and 530 A.D., were recovered when a Turkish art dealer offered to sell it to an American antique dealer for $1 million. The American dealer contacted the Paul Getty Museum in Malibu to resell the mosaics for $20 million. The museum then informed the Cypriot Church about the art work.

In the end, the United States courts ruled that the Cypriot Church was the legitimate owner of the pieces, and they are now shown in the Byzantine Museum of Nicosia.

It is estimated that more than 60,000 ancient artifacts have been illegally transferred to other countries, according to the Republic of Cyprus. Sadly, most of these artifacts were not recovered.

Cyprus has some of the finest collections of Byzantine art in the world, offering scholars and others the priceless study on the development of Byzantine wall-painting art from the 8th-9th century until the 18th century A.D.

The United States has recognized Cyprus' endangered cultural heritage, and in 1999 and 2003 the U.S. Treasury Department issued emergency import restrictions on Byzantine Ecclesiastical and Ritual Ethnological Materials from Cyprus.

Then in 2002, the United States and Cyprus signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) concerning the import restrictions on pre-classical and classical archeological objects from Cyprus. The MOU was amended and renewed in 2006 and 2007 to include additional artifacts.

Kakouris commented that the Cyprus issue has been ignored for decades by the United States.

"There is only so much oxygen that exists from a journalistic point of view," he said. "When one picks up the paper and looks at international issues what does one see? Either a bombing that took place in the Middle East or a bombing in Iraq or loss of life in Afghanistan - issues such as that.

He continued, "Although there are issues that appear to be more important than the Cyprus issue - because we don't have that immediacy of seeing deaths or events on a daily basis in Cyprus, and thankfully - that does not make the continuing occupation by Turkey of the northern part of Cyprus any more acceptable."

There were 20,000 Greek Cypriots in the Turkish-controlled area after 1974, but today there are about 450 Greek Cypriots remaining.


http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/pre ... church.htm

So, you misrepresented what I'd said and done, you ignored all of my international and bicommunal evidence - and even the evidence I found in Hellenist propaganda - then you presented more one-sided evidence...

Yes, I was right - I do have better things to do with my time.

[samarkeolog]

[Even if we consider those 11 within the 115 mosques Cyprus Temples studied (ignoring the fact that some of the unpublished mosques might have been demolished; ignoring the fact that some of the mosques in northern Cyprus had also been demolished; etc., etc., etc.), 11/115 is 9.56%.

So, a greater number of churches were destroyed (again, again, again, like always, I've never denied that), but, proportionally, about twice as many of Cyprus's mosques (9.56%) were destroyed as churches (4.81%). You felt magnitude was all-important. And the Turkish Cypriots suffered a greater magnitude of destruction than the Greek Cypriots.

Congratulations ... so you choose to ignore the hundreds of Churches that were stripped of antiquities, re-used as stables etc and chose something you can manipulate to suggest the TCs have suffered a greater loss.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but one last hurrah...

I didn't ignore looting of, damage to, or reuse of churches, but I don't have numbers for the looting of and damage to mosques, so I used the thing where I had numbers for what happened, so that we could compare magnitude.

And I didn't know what the result would be when I found the numbers, so no, I didn't "cho[o]se something [I could] manipulate to suggest the TCs have suffered a greater loss".

I had been talking about damage and destruction, and you asked for numbers; I got you the numbers for destruction.

Looting was a separate business, anyway. It is pure business - the looters loot archaeological sites as well as churches, and mosques. The same Turkish deep state gang that has looted churches in northern Cyprus has looted mosques in Turkey (and when it didn't simply steal stuff, it even used the same tricks to get hold of artefacts to sell).

Even your Department of Antiquities and your Orthodox Church don't have exact numbers for looting, so there's no way you can expect me to have them.

You guiltlessly ignore that nearly 100% of the Churches in the northern half are made inaccessible to the GCs, not just by being destroyed, or through cultural destruction, but also by order of Turkey to keep GCs away!

If I'm an angry little man, why are you using (false) emotive language like 'guiltlessly'?

"The last church standing in north Cyprus"

How the Christian history was erased

Uf. Again with the lazy copy-and-pasting of this article to crowd out discussion of anything else?

One lone church struggles to survive in a land where hundreds have been damaged or destroyed. But this is no ordinary land; it is the very ground where Apostle Paul took his first missionary journey to proclaim salvation through Jesus Christ to the Roman Empire.

Now 2,000 years later, the small Mediterranean island of Cyprus is divided into two with the northern third occupied by Turkey. In the span of three decades under Turkish control, more than 530 churches and monasteries have been pillaged, vandalized, or destroyed in the northern area, according to The Republic of Cyprus.

My link was to the Republic of Cyprus, and it said there were 520 Christian buildings in northern Cyprus in total. How did Turkey mistreat more than 530?

"I cannot say that it (destruction of churches) is encouraged openly by the Turkish government," said Cyprus's Ambassador to the United States, Andreas Kakouris, to The Christian Post. "All I can say is that it is taking place in the area that is under direct control of the Turkish military and I leave you to make your own conclusions from that."

Since its 1974 invasion, Turkey has controlled northern Cyprus which it calls the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus." No international nation has ever recognized this entity except for Turkey. The United States has only recognized the Republic of Cyprus.

Starting in 2003, Greek-Cypriots again were allowed to cross the border between the Republic of Cyprus and the area under Turkish control. It was around this time that scholars and photographers were able to visit northern Cyprus to document the destruction of historic churches and artifacts.

Surprise, surprise, a sense of deja vu - it's like I've already complained about this article before.

All of the biggest and best Hellenist propaganda - Cyprus, the Plundering of a 9,000 Year-Old Civilisation (1985); Flagellum Dei (1997); Cyprus, a Civilisation Plundered (1998) - were first published before the opening of the border in 2003, and they were all full of photographs.

St. Mamas Church in the northwest town of Morphou is the only notable church that is known to be semi-active in Turkey-controlled Cyprus, according to the New York-based Hellenic Times and the Embassy of The Republic of Cyprus in the United States. Turkish officials who rule the area reportedly give permission twice a year for remaining residents - who were there before Turkish occupation - to worship in the church.

But other churches did not fare so well.

About 133 churches, chapels and monasteries have been converted to military storage facilities, stables and night-clubs. Seventy-eight churches have been converted to mosques, and dozens more are used as military facilities, medical storage facilities, or stockyards or hay barns, according to statistics from The Republic of Cyprus.

Agia Anastasia church in Lapithos was converted into a hotel and casino, while Sourp Magar Armenian monastery - founded in the medieval period - was converted into a cafeteria.

A Neolithic settlement at the Cape of Apostolos Andreas-Kastros in the occupied area of Rizokapraso - a site declared an ancient monument by the Republic of Cyprus - was bulldozed by the Turkish Army in order to plant two of its flagpoles on top of the historic hill.

"This is not a Muslim-Christian issue," contends Ambassador Kakouris, who is a Greek Orthodox Christian.

Turkey, a constitutionally secular country, is made up of more than a 99 percent Muslim population, according to the CIA World Factbook. "I don't think the Cyprus problem has ever been a religious issue between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots," said Kakouris.

But he added that if the Turkish government hadn't given the "green light" on the destruction of churches and artifacts, they have not given the "red light" either.

"So it is ... either directly taking place or with their blind eye or whatever you want to call it. But they are responsible for what is taking place there," says Kakouris.

Furthermore, over 15,000 portable religious icons were stolen and auctioned off around the world.

Relics - which include fine icons, mosaics and frescoes from ancient Byzantine era - have turned up at auction houses around the world, including at the prestigious Sotheby's in New York.

In January 2007, six icons were returned to the Church of Cyprus after being smuggled out of the country. They were to be put up for auction at Sotheby's.

Also, back in 1988, four pieces of an invaluable work of art, dating between 525 and 530 A.D., were recovered when a Turkish art dealer offered to sell it to an American antique dealer for $1 million. The American dealer contacted the Paul Getty Museum in Malibu to resell the mosaics for $20 million. The museum then informed the Cypriot Church about the art work.

In the end, the United States courts ruled that the Cypriot Church was the legitimate owner of the pieces, and they are now shown in the Byzantine Museum of Nicosia.

It is estimated that more than 60,000 ancient artifacts have been illegally transferred to other countries, according to the Republic of Cyprus. Sadly, most of these artifacts were not recovered.

Cyprus has some of the finest collections of Byzantine art in the world, offering scholars and others the priceless study on the development of Byzantine wall-painting art from the 8th-9th century until the 18th century A.D.

The United States has recognized Cyprus' endangered cultural heritage, and in 1999 and 2003 the U.S. Treasury Department issued emergency import restrictions on Byzantine Ecclesiastical and Ritual Ethnological Materials from Cyprus.

Then in 2002, the United States and Cyprus signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) concerning the import restrictions on pre-classical and classical archeological objects from Cyprus. The MOU was amended and renewed in 2006 and 2007 to include additional artifacts.

Kakouris commented that the Cyprus issue has been ignored for decades by the United States.

"There is only so much oxygen that exists from a journalistic point of view," he said. "When one picks up the paper and looks at international issues what does one see? Either a bombing that took place in the Middle East or a bombing in Iraq or loss of life in Afghanistan - issues such as that.

He continued, "Although there are issues that appear to be more important than the Cyprus issue - because we don't have that immediacy of seeing deaths or events on a daily basis in Cyprus, and thankfully - that does not make the continuing occupation by Turkey of the northern part of Cyprus any more acceptable."

There were 20,000 Greek Cypriots in the Turkish-controlled area after 1974, but today there are about 450 Greek Cypriots remaining.


http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/pre ... church.htm

So, you misrepresented what I'd said and done, you ignored all of my international and bicommunal evidence - and even the evidence I found in Hellenist propaganda - then you presented more one-sided evidence...

Yes, I was right - I do have better things to do with my time.

[samarkeolog]

Sorry about the double post, my computer had an epi.

And thanks, Halil. Were you thinking of those three Karaokcu articles on the condition of Turkish Cypriot villages in the South?

[Oracle]

Sam your link doesn't work. I don't know why some numbers don't add up from one source to the next. Some may include Armenian and Maronite Churches in the totals and some just GO. Some numbers may include Churches which were converted to Mosques long ago etc. ... can't tell without comparing all the articles.

I had been talking about damage and destruction, and you asked for numbers; I got you the numbers for destruction.

I didn't ask for numbers, I happen to know how difficult it is for the RoC to determine the extent of the destruction in the north. But, even the little they have managed to garner, exposes a malevolent practice of overwhelming proportions and points to a policy practiced by Turkey of an aim to erase the whole history and presence of GCs in the north. The cultural destruction seen with Churches and village name changes, and removal of people implicate Turkey in something most sinister. Looting and destruction are merely the means to their ultimate goal; it is this which you fail to address.

Why does Turkey systematically remove people, then remove any signs of their presence ... even rename animals with reference to the people that were there before, for example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4328285.stm

And what happened to the Armenian churches in Western Armenia? That's the fate that awaits Cyprus.

Turkey has a history of ethnic cleansing and sanitising territory of original inhabitants by removal of their cultural artifacts. It is in the process of doing that NOW in Cyprus. It has NOT stopped! It will NOT stop destroying all remaining signs of GCs in the north, because its ultimate aim is expansionism! And it hides behind a veneer by distorting the most minor signs of wear and tear in any mosques (even if they were originally churches) to pretend it is tit for tat. Collecting numbers will always yield inaccuracies because the numbers keep changing because Turkey continues to plunder!

Now tell me how the RoC is equally expanding?