Cyprus-Forum.com

[Turan Tankgirl]

samarkeolog, I have a slight suspicion that you might be wasting your time giving perfectly logical arguments to Oracle on the matter.

She wont ever take anything in consideration if it slightly means leaving her hard-right-racist view of the whole world, she won't even take a short walk that way, EVER!

"So the last time I was in Famagusta, there was a photograph – you
can see there – it was the medieval Gothic church of the 13th century in
Famagusta of the Templars, and now it’s a nightclub. You can have your drink there, and it’s unbelievable for us, for such a desecration of a holy place"

Excerpt from the report as mentioned above.

A Templars Church converted in a nightclub in a muslimcountry could be a joke of Hodja. We went there some weeks ago and to our disappointment there was none. No nightclub at all but just a historic site and in use as an art gallery.

[Oracle]

I would also say that the most important thing is not the exact amounts of destruction, but the facts of the destruction, and the destroyers. I think the most important thing is to know that small groups of extremists and paramilitaries destroyed Cypriot community and society, and how they destroyed them, so that we can try to undo some of their damage, and try to save others from a similar fate.

The amount of destruction may be an indicator of the intent or ultimate aim of the destruction, which I think is the real issue.

Obviously, I'm not dismissing the importance [s]of[/s] or the informativeness of the amount of destruction.

In which case I hope you appreciate the polarising differences in the amount of destruction suffered by the GCs in their own country, compared to those who came here to impart their own culture!.

The intent of both sides' nationalists' destruction was clearly the destruction of the other community, destruction of their identity and the proof of their historic presence on the island.

Why would the RoC attempt to erase the presence of the TCs when it is concentrating on having them return, as well as caring for the many that are comfortably living in the RoC, and the hordes working in the RoC?

The only "nationalists" GCs that had any impact in their activities in Cyprus were EOKA, in the 50's, who were rather too busy focusing on removing the Brits to play silly buggers with buildings.

(Although you did make a fool of yourself, again, with such a claim last time and DT. put you right.)

]And if you want to understand the intent of the destruction of churches, you have to begin with the destruction of mosques, because it was the Greek Cypriots' destruction of mosques that caused the Turkish Cypriots'/Turks' destruction of churches.

Thanks for cleverly starting a chicken an egg scenario, but we all know how many mosques there were before the Ottomans arrived; that serves as a good example of the care shown by GCs to maintaining heritage.

On the other hand, the hundreds of churches, centuries old, that the Ottomans found in Cyprus, were not so lucky to meet with equal respect!

When the Hellenist extremists' violence was used to destroy the Islamic/Turkish Cypriot presence on the island, the Turkist extremists' violence used their violence to destroy the Christian/Greek Cypriot presence in northern Cyprus.

As good as that sounds for philosophising, there is very little evidence to back up your inclusion of Hellenic extremists ... and what is 'Hellenist extremist' anyway? One who muses all day?

Systematic or state sponsored destruction is obviously of major concern being less amenable to preventative measures.

We know from habit and history that the victors or conquerors aim to erase the influences of the predecessors. There is much evidence to suggest the Turks are systematically, via state endorsement, attempting to remove Greek history, symbols (icons), language (village names), buildings (churches) and most of all ... people!

The Hellenist extremists did the same thing, they established every practice that the Turkist extremists now use: destruction of mosques; changes in street names (to those of EOKA heroes, etc.) - and even changes in suburb/village names (like the change in the spelling of Aglantzia(?)); and people too, through the enclaving of the Turkish Cypriots.

Again you are talking from desiring a simple picture, uncluttered by evidence.

Are you suggesting the GCs taught the Turks the art of deconstructing Ayia Sophia in Constantinople? You are a joke of a historian!

Which mosques were destroyed?

Virtually all the village names had Greek derived names originally ... if they were changed, they were changed to Turkish.

However, the British did change some names and I think that influenced some further name changes.

In this context, the RoC has absolutely no desire to eradicate the TCs' history, (is there even one mosque converted to a church?). There is unlikely to be any (RoC) state endorsed destruction, as the aim is to restore a reunified island with all the people accessing their homes.

Sam, you are a good mental distraction ... but I bid you goodnight!

It depends upon your definition of a church and a mosque: there are no buildings originally built as mosques, which have been converted into churches. But there are buildings that were originally built as churches, which had been mosques for half a millennium, which have been converted into churches, or at least which have had their wall-paintings exposed, so that Orthodox Muslims could no longer worship in those buildings, so that they will be converted into churches.

So what is your gripe here?

As far as I know the Churches that were converted to mosques still remain so, or have been turned into museums or stables and unless you know of any that have gone from Church to Mosque, back to practicing Church (presumably without original furnishings), then please let us know.

]But I know you probably won't accept that a building that was a mosque for [s]500[/s] 400 [sorry, still waking up] years was a mosque; still, there was damage to and destruction of mosques during the EOKA campaign and during the intercommunal conflict. (The Hellenic Open University's Dr. Charalampos Chotzakoglou briefly acknowledged 'damages' (in Religious Monuments in Turkish-Occupied Cyprus: Evidence and Acts of Continuous Destruction (2008: 57)), but only so he could praise the restoration work. By ignoring the complete destruction documented by the Council of Europe and UNESCO, he effectively denied it.) Homes were targeted too.

Good attempt to pad out and waffle since you cannot find more than a small weak example, with as you say an ulterior motive.

The damage done during the EOKA campaign was done by forces under the control of the people who would become the Republic of Cyprus, and the damage done during the intercommunal conflict was done sometimes by forces under the state's control, sometimes by forces outside the state's control.

You need to provide some evidence for such a claim since EOKA were busy removing Brits unless thy were defending themselves from TMT actions.

Damage done since 1974 has been sometimes outside of the state's control, but sometimes under its control. All of those road improvement schemes [that] somehow required/caused the destruction of Turkish Cypriot homes were state/state-approved projects, weren't they?

Well that's an allegation you have to substantiate with comparative data from GC land appropriated by the state and see if there is any favouritism ... And you can start by adding my family to the list who lost some coastline, a field for road developments and orchards for Dam building. And because we were abroad (mostly) we received no compensation (although my dad being a communist did not seek any, if any was on offer).

[samarkeolog]

I would also say that the most important thing is not the exact amounts of destruction, but the facts of the destruction, and the destroyers. I think the most important thing is to know that small groups of extremists and paramilitaries destroyed Cypriot community and society, and how they destroyed them, so that we can try to undo some of their damage, and try to save others from a similar fate.

The amount of destruction may be an indicator of the intent or ultimate aim of the destruction, which I think is the real issue.

Obviously, I'm not dismissing the importance [s]of[/s] or the informativeness of the amount of destruction.

The intent of both sides' nationalists' destruction was clearly the destruction of the other community, destruction of their identity and the proof of their historic presence on the island.

And if you want to understand the intent of the destruction of churches, you have to begin with the destruction of mosques, because it was the Greek Cypriots' destruction of mosques that caused the Turkish Cypriots'/Turks' destruction of churches.

When the Hellenist extremists' violence was used to destroy the Islamic/Turkish Cypriot presence on the island, the Turkist extremists' violence used their violence to destroy the Christian/Greek Cypriot presence in northern Cyprus.

Systematic or state sponsored destruction is obviously of major concern being less amenable to preventative measures.

We know from habit and history that the victors or conquerors aim to erase the influences of the predecessors. There is much evidence to suggest the Turks are systematically, via state endorsement, attempting to remove Greek history, symbols (icons), language (village names), buildings (churches) and most of all ... people!

The Hellenist extremists did the same thing, they established every practice that the Turkist extremists now use: destruction of mosques; changes in street names (to those of EOKA heroes, etc.) - and even changes in suburb/village names (like the change in the spelling of Aglantzia(?)); and people too, through the enclaving of the Turkish Cypriots.

In this context, the RoC has absolutely no desire to eradicate the TCs' history, (is there even one mosque converted to a church?). There is unlikely to be any (RoC) state endorsed destruction, as the aim is to restore a reunified island with all the people accessing their homes.

Sam, you are a good mental distraction ... but I bid you goodnight!

It depends upon your definition of a church and a mosque: there are no buildings originally built as mosques, which have been converted into churches. But there are buildings that were originally built as churches, which had been mosques for half a millennium, which have been converted into churches, or at least which have had their wall-paintings exposed, so that Orthodox Muslims could no longer worship in those buildings, so that they will be converted into churches.

What are you rambling on about you blithering idiot? Let me get this right, half a millenia ago...the Ottomans conquered Cyprus and it was at this time the natives converted original Mosques into churches. Really, who cares what your trying to say.

WHAT!?

No, I was saying that the buildings, first used as Latin churches, before the Ottoman Conquest, were converted into mosques after the Ottoman Conquest, in the late 16th Century. They remained mosques until the late 20th Century. Then after 1974, the RoC started "restoring" the mosques by stripping their whitewash off the walls to reveal the wall-paintings, etc.

In 1989, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe warned them that when they revealed the wall-paintings, they made the mosques unsuitable for use as mosques because of the human images in the art. (Obviously, the RoC knew that before, and they continued to do that afterwards.)

tHE UNQUESTIONABLE proof are from those two million tourists who visit Cyprus each year. When these tourists visit the RoC...they see mosques every where and some that are actually being restored by the government of the RoC.

You have more faith in the tourists' interest in culture than I do.

Neither the tourists nor the GCs see the mosques that were razed to the ground, do they? Many of them won't see or recognise the ruins of some of the others. And when they see "restored" - according to the PACE, 'virtually rebuilt' - Evdimou Mosque, do they know its history, or do they just think it's an abandoned mosque that the RoC is generously restoring?

But when they visit the occupied north, they see destruction of everything none Turkic...why is that?

Actually, look at the state of the hamam in southern Nicosia and the hamam in northern Nicosia. The one in the South is restored and making lots of money, the one in the North is collapsing (or was the last I heard).

Lots of stuff - including "Turkish" stuff - is falling apart up there, because they have no money.

Listen, you dont have to take my word or anyone else in this forum. The proof is from those who actually visit Cyprus.

The following article appeared in the Christian Post on 28 April written by Michelle A Vu.

"The last church standing in north Cyprus

How the Christian history was erased

One lone church struggles to survive in a land where hundreds have been damaged or destroyed. But this is no ordinary land; it is the very ground where Apostle Paul took his first missionary journey to proclaim salvation through Jesus Christ to the Roman Empire.

Now 2,000 years later, the small Mediterranean island of Cyprus is divided into two with the northern third occupied by Turkey. In the span of three decades under Turkish control, more than 530 churches and monasteries have been pillaged, vandalized, or destroyed in the northern area, according to The Republic of Cyprus.

"I cannot say that it (destruction of churches) is encouraged openly by the Turkish government," said Cyprus's Ambassador to the United States, Andreas Kakouris, to The Christian Post. "All I can say is that it is taking place in the area that is under direct control of the Turkish military and I leave you to make your own conclusions from that."

Since its 1974 invasion, Turkey has controlled northern Cyprus which it calls the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus." No international nation has ever recognized this entity except for Turkey. The United States has only recognized the Republic of Cyprus.

Starting in 2003, Greek-Cypriots again were allowed to cross the border between the Republic of Cyprus and the area under Turkish control. It was around this time that scholars and photographers were able to visit northern Cyprus to document the destruction of historic churches and artifacts.

Hellenists produced three massive books of propaganda, with lots of photographs in them, in 1985, 1997 and 1998; the 1997 book, Flagellum Dei, was made by the RoC itself.

St. Mamas Church in the northwest town of Morphou is the only notable church that is known to be semi-active in Turkey-controlled Cyprus, according to the New York-based Hellenic Times and the Embassy of The Republic of Cyprus in the United States. Turkish officials who rule the area reportedly give permission twice a year for remaining residents - who were there before Turkish occupation - to worship in the church.

But other churches did not fare so well.

About 133 churches, chapels and monasteries have been converted to military storage facilities, stables and night-clubs. Seventy-eight churches have been converted to mosques, and dozens more are used as military facilities, medical storage facilities, or stockyards or hay barns, according to statistics from The Republic of Cyprus.

Agia Anastasia church in Lapithos was converted into a hotel and casino, while Sourp Magar Armenian monastery - founded in the medieval period - was converted into a cafeteria.

A Neolithic settlement at the Cape of Apostolos Andreas-Kastros in the occupied area of Rizokapraso - a site declared an ancient monument by the Republic of Cyprus - was bulldozed by the Turkish Army in order to plant two of its flagpoles on top of the historic hill.

"This is not a Muslim-Christian issue," contends Ambassador Kakouris, who is a Greek Orthodox Christian.

Turkey, a constitutionally secular country, is made up of more than a 99 percent Muslim population, according to the CIA World Factbook. "I don't think the Cyprus problem has ever been a religious issue between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots," said Kakouris.

But he added that if the Turkish government hadn't given the "green light" on the destruction of churches and artifacts, they have not given the "red light" either.

"So it is ... either directly taking place or with their blind eye or whatever you want to call it. But they are responsible for what is taking place there," says Kakouris.

Furthermore, over 15,000 portable religious icons were stolen and auctioned off around the world.

Relics - which include fine icons, mosaics and frescoes from ancient Byzantine era - have turned up at auction houses around the world, including at the prestigious Sotheby's in New York.

In January 2007, six icons were returned to the Church of Cyprus after being smuggled out of the country. They were to be put up for auction at Sotheby's.

Also, back in 1988, four pieces of an invaluable work of art, dating between 525 and 530 A.D., were recovered when a Turkish art dealer offered to sell it to an American antique dealer for $1 million. The American dealer contacted the Paul Getty Museum in Malibu to resell the mosaics for $20 million. The museum then informed the Cypriot Church about the art work.

In the end, the United States courts ruled that the Cypriot Church was the legitimate owner of the pieces, and they are now shown in the Byzantine Museum of Nicosia.

It is estimated that more than 60,000 ancient artifacts have been illegally transferred to other countries, according to the Republic of Cyprus. Sadly, most of these artifacts were not recovered.

Cyprus has some of the finest collections of Byzantine art in the world, offering scholars and others the priceless study on the development of Byzantine wall-painting art from the 8th-9th century until the 18th century A.D.

The United States has recognized Cyprus' endangered cultural heritage, and in 1999 and 2003 the U.S. Treasury Department issued emergency import restrictions on Byzantine Ecclesiastical and Ritual Ethnological Materials from Cyprus.

Then in 2002, the United States and Cyprus signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) concerning the import restrictions on pre-classical and classical archeological objects from Cyprus. The MOU was amended and renewed in 2006 and 2007 to include additional artifacts.

Kakouris commented that the Cyprus issue has been ignored for decades by the United States.

"There is only so much oxygen that exists from a journalistic point of view," he said. "When one picks up the paper and looks at international issues what does one see? Either a bombing that took place in the Middle East or a bombing in Iraq or loss of life in Afghanistan - issues such as that.

He continued, "Although there are issues that appear to be more important than the Cyprus issue - because we don't have that immediacy of seeing deaths or events on a daily basis in Cyprus, and thankfully - that does not make the continuing occupation by Turkey of the northern part of Cyprus any more acceptable."

There were 20,000 Greek Cypriots in the Turkish-controlled area after 1974, but today there are about 450 Greek Cypriots remaining.

Over 80 percent of the Republic of Cyprus population is Christian. While the island population is only 800,000, it is a major tourist attraction, drawing over 2 million tourists each year."

Did she actually go there at all? Everything she says is 'according to' someone else. The only photograph is an archive photograph. She wrote that article by telephone.

Regardless, I didn't deny there had been damage and destruction in northern Cyprus. I started my post by saying that there had been damage and destruction in northern Cyprus. Some of my work was visiting the damaged and destroyed places in northern Cyprus.

Now, instead of reprinting Christian propaganda, or trying to associate me with denial of the damage and destruction, why don't you try to deal with what I actually said?

[samarkeolog]

Are there really two sides to every issue? On every issue? Well, the Turks would have us believe that wouldnt they? Destruction of Greek Cypriot culture...hold on, not so fast my EOKA gayreek friend, there two sides two this, always have and always will be. Yes, Mehmeti, your always right Mr. Mehmeti, as you say Mr. Mehmeti....

Well, lazy sarcasm aside, mosques were destroyed, and homes were destroyed, and villages were destroyed. So yes, there are two sides. Next question.

[samarkeolog]

Turkey’s policy on Cyprus. Churches converted into mosques. Why not just bid new mosques? really, whats going on?

Why destroy old mosques?

Weve seen that churches and monasteries converted into stables and hostels. Again, why not just build new stables or new hostels?

Why make old mosques unsuitable for use as mosques?

Cemeteries destroyed and desecrated. Even the dead cant rest in peace.

Either you don't live in southern Cyprus, or you've never been anywhere that has an old Turkish Cypriot cemeter, or you're really bad at this nationalist shit-stirring. I guess practice makes perfect... Loads of Turkish Cypriot cemeteries have been damaged or destroyed too.

Icons and artifacts looted and smuggled abroad.

Who bought them and paid for their smuggling?

Why are you whining gayreek is the response im hearing from some TCs in this forum. Names of towns and villages have been changed and were converted into Turkish ones. Is it really hard to say Morphou? After peace operation 1974, its been given the name Güzelyurt.

Say it with me now....G ü z e l y u r t.

Where in history is Morphou called G ü z e l y u r t?

Doesn't Guzelyurt mean Morphou in Turkish? "Beautiful place" or something like that? I vaguely remember someone saying that "yurt" might mean it referred to the beautiful Turkish homeland, but I'm not sure.

Are there really two sides to the destruction of anything GC in the North?

The only thing i see from the TC contributors here (with the exception of one) is how happy they are to be a Turk and living in the TRNC.

Well, sometimes Pontic Turkish Muslim settlers converted a church into a mosque to protect the church from destruction by Turkish Cypriot nationalists. So yes, sometimes there are two sides even to the treatment of churches in the North. But again, no-one (sensible) is saying that churches were not damaged or destroyed. They are saying, however, that Turkish Cypriot mosques, homes and villages were also destroyed, and propaganda does not help anyone.

[samarkeolog]

samarkeolog, I have a slight suspicion that you might be wasting your time giving perfectly logical arguments to Oracle on the matter.

She wont ever take anything in consideration if it slightly means leaving her hard-right-racist view of the whole world, she won't even take a short walk that way, EVER!

"So the last time I was in Famagusta, there was a photograph – you
can see there – it was the medieval Gothic church of the 13th century in
Famagusta of the Templars, and now it’s a nightclub. You can have your drink there, and it’s unbelievable for us, for such a desecration of a holy place"

Excerpt from the report as mentioned above.

A Templars Church converted in a nightclub in a muslimcountry could be a joke of Hodja. We went there some weeks ago and to our disappointment there was none. No nightclub at all but just a historic site and in use as an art gallery.

One has been converted into a bar, though - near the square, on the way to the lahmacun joint.

[samarkeolog]

I would also say that the most important thing is not the exact amounts of destruction, but the facts of the destruction, and the destroyers. I think the most important thing is to know that small groups of extremists and paramilitaries destroyed Cypriot community and society, and how they destroyed them, so that we can try to undo some of their damage, and try to save others from a similar fate.

The amount of destruction may be an indicator of the intent or ultimate aim of the destruction, which I think is the real issue.

Obviously, I'm not dismissing the importance [s]of[/s] or the informativeness of the amount of destruction.

In which case I hope you appreciate the polarising differences in the amount of destruction suffered by the GCs in their own country, compared to those who came here to impart their own culture!.

The GCs also destroyed lots of mosques and damaged lots of others. (And many of the damaged or destroyed churches were damaged or destroyed by TCs.)

The intent of both sides' nationalists' destruction was clearly the destruction of the other community, destruction of their identity and the proof of their historic presence on the island.

Why would the RoC attempt to erase the presence of the TCs when it is concentrating on having them return, as well as caring for the many that are comfortably living in the RoC, and the hordes working in the RoC?

The only "nationalists" GCs that had any impact in their activities in Cyprus were EOKA, in the 50's, who were rather too busy focusing on removing the Brits to play silly buggers with buildings.

Akritas, EOKA-B - they didn't have any impact, or they weren't nationalists?

(Although you did make a fool of yourself, again, with such a claim last time and DT. put you right.)

I got the date of graffiti wrong, because my source got the date of the graffiti wrong, and my source had worked with the military in Cyprus, so I trusted him. I admitted my mistake and corrected it immediately. But I mistakenly dated the '80s damage to the '60s (not the '50s).

I Googled CF references to Greek Cypriot Nearchos Georgiades' claim that EOKA attacked a mosque in 1958, but couldn't find our previous discussion of it. Did DT correct me on that, too?

Nevertheless, some time employee of the Museum of the Monastery of Kykko, Dr. Charalampos G. Chotzakoglou said that there had been damage to mosques during the EOKA campaign and during the intercommunal conflict. So disagree with him and Kykko, not me.

(And the EOKA campaign was not just to remove the Brits, but to Hellenise the island and achieve enosis.)

I refer you, yet again, to Dalibard's documentation of damage to mosques, and to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe's documentation of the destruction of a mosque, and to the Cyprus Temples project's documentation of demolished mosques.

]And if you want to understand the intent of the destruction of churches, you have to begin with the destruction of mosques, because it was the Greek Cypriots' destruction of mosques that caused the Turkish Cypriots'/Turks' destruction of churches.

Thanks for cleverly starting a chicken an egg scenario,

It's not so much a chicken-and-egg scenario as a bomb-and-fire one.

but we all know how many mosques there were before the Ottomans arrived; that serves as a good example of the care shown by GCs to maintaining heritage.

PACE, UNESCO, Cyprus Temples... I do tire of this.

On the other hand, the hundreds of churches, centuries old, that the Ottomans found in Cyprus, were not so lucky to meet with equal respect!

I agree. But the Orthodox Christians and Muslims joined together to punish the Latins.

When the Hellenist extremists' violence was used to destroy the Islamic/Turkish Cypriot presence on the island, the Turkist extremists' violence used their violence to destroy the Christian/Greek Cypriot presence in northern Cyprus.

As good as that sounds for philosophising, there is very little evidence to back up your inclusion of Hellenic extremists ... and what is 'Hellenist extremist' anyway? One who muses all day?

I was using it as a shorthand for EOKA, Akritas, EOKA-B, random nationalist villagers...

And as for evidence, PACE, UNESCO, Cyprus Temples...

Systematic or state sponsored destruction is obviously of major concern being less amenable to preventative measures.

We know from habit and history that the victors or conquerors aim to erase the influences of the predecessors. There is much evidence to suggest the Turks are systematically, via state endorsement, attempting to remove Greek history, symbols (icons), language (village names), buildings (churches) and most of all ... people!

The Hellenist extremists did the same thing, they established every practice that the Turkist extremists now use: destruction of mosques; changes in street names (to those of EOKA heroes, etc.) - and even changes in suburb/village names (like the change in the spelling of Aglantzia(?)); and people too, through the enclaving of the Turkish Cypriots.

Again you are talking from desiring a simple picture, uncluttered by evidence.

PACE, UNESCO, Cyprus Temples... Are you telling me you don't know of any streets named after EOKA heroes? When I was in Nicosia, I heard about the argument over the Hellenisation of the spelling of Aglantzia (because the administration wanted to change it, but the locals wanted to keep its old, original spelling, which was closer to its original Turkish Eglence)... And you need evidence for the enclaves...?

Precisely what haven't I provided evidence for?

Are you suggesting the GCs taught the Turks the art of deconstructing Ayia Sophia in Constantinople? You are a joke of a historian!

Are you suggesting that when Turkish Cypriot and Turkish nationalists saw Greek Cypriots destroying mosques to make the island purely Greek during the intercommunal conflict, they didn't think, "we'll destroy churches to make the island purely Turkish", but, "... do you remember Agia Sophia?" It was a clear, direct, equal response to Greek Cypriot strategy.

Which mosques were destroyed?

We've been through this before, and I gave you all of the names of the ones destroyed on Cyprus Temples (even though it only recorded mosques in the South, and even though its record of the South is incomplete).

Virtually all the village names had Greek derived names originally ... if they were changed, they were changed to Turkish.

However, the British did change some names and I think that influenced some further name changes.

Many of the Brits knew ancient Greek, so used that to talk with the Greek Cypriots; and being Christian, they tended to socialise with the GCs rather than the TCs. So, they produced a Hellenocentric map. The Brits made the place names less "Turkish".

Some villages' names were changed because a community of TC refugees from the South took the name of their village with them. (Didn't the TCs from Mari/Tatlisu in the South renamed Akanthou Tatlisu?)

But I didn't deny changes of names of villages in the North.

In this context, the RoC has absolutely no desire to eradicate the TCs' history, (is there even one mosque converted to a church?). There is unlikely to be any (RoC) state endorsed destruction, as the aim is to restore a reunified island with all the people accessing their homes.

Sam, you are a good mental distraction ... but I bid you goodnight!

It depends upon your definition of a church and a mosque: there are no buildings originally built as mosques, which have been converted into churches. But there are buildings that were originally built as churches, which had been mosques for half a millennium, which have been converted into churches, or at least which have had their wall-paintings exposed, so that Orthodox Muslims could no longer worship in those buildings, so that they will be converted into churches.

So what is your gripe here?

As far as I know the Churches that were converted to mosques still remain so, or have been turned into museums or stables and unless you know of any that have gone from Church to Mosque, back to practicing Church (presumably without original furnishings), then please let us know.

My gripe is the same one the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has. Take it up with them.

]But I know you probably won't accept that a building that was a mosque for [s]500[/s] 400 [sorry, still waking up] years was a mosque; still, there was damage to and destruction of mosques during the EOKA campaign and during the intercommunal conflict. (The Hellenic Open University's Dr. Charalampos Chotzakoglou briefly acknowledged 'damages' (in Religious Monuments in Turkish-Occupied Cyprus: Evidence and Acts of Continuous Destruction (2008: 57)), but only so he could praise the restoration work. By ignoring the complete destruction documented by the Council of Europe and UNESCO, he effectively denied it.) Homes were targeted too.

Good attempt to pad out and waffle since you cannot find more than a small weak example, with as you say an ulterior motive.

Now you're criticising GC propaganda for not acknowledging destruction of TC cultural heritage?

And you ignored the sentence afterwards, where I once more directed you to PACE and UNESCO's documentation of damage to and destruction of TC cultural heritage. I would also, yet again again again again direct you to Cyprus Temples.

The damage done during the EOKA campaign was done by forces under the control of the people who would become the Republic of Cyprus, and the damage done during the intercommunal conflict was done sometimes by forces under the state's control, sometimes by forces outside the state's control.

You need to provide some evidence for such a claim since EOKA were busy removing Brits unless thy were defending themselves from TMT actions.

They were busy killing GCs, too, don't forget.

See the link to Nearchos Georgiades' confession above, or read the Monastery of Kykko's propaganda, which admits damage to mosques between 1955 and 1959 and between 1963 and 1964. (It said the intercommunal conflict ended then, because it needed to make the Turkish invasion seem a strange action. It would ruin its propaganda if it acknowledged fighting sometimes restarted (e.g. in 1967), and TCs remained in enclaves until 1974.)

Damage done since 1974 has been sometimes outside of the state's control, but sometimes under its control. All of those road improvement schemes [that] somehow required/caused the destruction of Turkish Cypriot homes were state/state-approved projects, weren't they?

Well that's an allegation you have to substantiate with comparative data from GC land appropriated by the state and see if there is any favouritism ... And you can start by adding my family to the list who lost some coastline, a field for road developments and orchards for Dam building. And because we were abroad (mostly) we received no compensation (although my dad being a communist did not seek any, if any was on offer).

Did they bulldoze your home?

Well, yet again again again, I've wasted an age telling you things you must have already known, not least because I'd already repeatedly told you those things myself. I'm not going to continue to waste my time with you. If you ask things I've already answered before, I'm just going to ignore them.

TTFN.

[Lit]

Turkey’s policy on Cyprus. Churches converted into mosques. Why not just bid new mosques? really, whats going on?

Why destroy old mosques?

Are you dense? It is clear to anyone who visits the RoC knows that this is not the case as they can see mosques everywhere from small villages to large towns. The government of the RoC has even contributed hundreds of thousands of Euros for maintenance purposes.

Weve seen that churches and monasteries converted into stables and hostels. Again, why not just build new stables or new hostels?

Why make old mosques unsuitable for use as mosques?

Unsuitable? Not the Turkish Cypriot mosques that are being used by Arabs who pray in them all the time!?

Cemeteries destroyed and desecrated. Even the dead cant rest in peace.

Either you don't live in southern Cyprus, or you've never been anywhere that has an old Turkish Cypriot cemeter, or you're really bad at this nationalist shit-stirring. I guess practice makes perfect... Loads of Turkish Cypriot cemeteries have been damaged or destroyed too.

Not only do i live in Cyprus but i pass by a Turkish Cypriot cemetery in Larnaca all the time.

Icons and artifacts looted and smuggled abroad.

Who bought them and paid for their smuggling?

Why dont you read here to find out:

http://www.archaeology.org/9807/etc/special.html

"A major break came this past October when Munich police arrested 60-year-old Aydin Dikman, a central figure in the looting and selling of the church treasures."

Why are you whining gayreek is the response im hearing from some TCs in this forum. Names of towns and villages have been changed and were converted into Turkish ones. Is it really hard to say Morphou? After peace operation 1974, its been given the name Güzelyurt.

Say it with me now....G ü z e l y u r t.

Where in history is Morphou called G ü z e l y u r t?

Doesn't Guzelyurt mean Morphou in Turkish? "Beautiful place" or something like that? I vaguely remember someone saying that "yurt" might mean it referred to the beautiful Turkish homeland, but I'm not sure.

What??? Before the expulsion of the entire GC population in 1974 from Morphou, the city was called Omorfo by the Turkish Cypriots. Omorfo not Güzelyurt!

Are there really two sides to the destruction of anything GC in the North?

The only thing i see from the TC contributors here (with the exception of one) is how happy they are to be a Turk and living in the TRNC.

Well, sometimes Pontic Turkish Muslim settlers converted a church into a mosque to protect the church from destruction by Turkish Cypriot nationalists. So yes, sometimes there are two sides even to the treatment of churches in the North. But again, no-one (sensible) is saying that churches were not damaged or destroyed. They are saying, however, that Turkish Cypriot mosques, homes and villages were also destroyed, and propaganda does not help anyone.

They're no two sides to this war crime. Shame on you.

[samarkeolog]

Turkey’s policy on Cyprus. Churches converted into mosques. Why not just bid new mosques? really, whats going on?

Why destroy old mosques?

Are you dense? It is clear to anyone who visits the RoC knows that this is not the case as they can see mosques everywhere from small villages to large towns. The government of the RoC has even contributed hundreds of thousands of Euros for maintenance purposes.

See: Jacques Dalibard's 1976 UNESCO report; Ymenus van der Werff and Robin Cormack's 1989 Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe report; or the Cyprus Temples project's website.

Weve seen that churches and monasteries converted into stables and hostels. Again, why not just build new stables or new hostels?

Why make old mosques unsuitable for use as mosques?

Unsuitable? Not the Turkish Cypriot mosques that are being used by Arabs who pray in them all the time!?[/quote]

No, not them - the ones from which the GCs removed the whitewash, exposing the wall-paintings and human images that make them unsuitable for use. See van der Werff and Cormack's PACE report.

Cemeteries destroyed and desecrated. Even the dead cant rest in peace.

Either you don't live in southern Cyprus, or you've never been anywhere that has an old Turkish Cypriot cemeter, or you're really bad at this nationalist shit-stirring. I guess practice makes perfect... Loads of Turkish Cypriot cemeteries have been damaged or destroyed too.

Not only do i live in Cyprus but i pass by a Turkish Cypriot cemetery in Larnaca all the time.

Just ones that I or people I know have visited in Larnaca District: Anglisides/Aksu; Goshi/Kossi; Lefkara/Lefkara; and Petrophani/Esendag...

Outside that, Agios Sozomenos/Arpalik; Kato Deftera/Asagi Deftera; Deneia/Denya; Kotsiatis/Koccat; Kouklia/Sakarya; Pano Koutraphas/Yukari Kutrafa; Kato Lakatameia/Asagi Lakadamya; Mandria/Yesilova; Mathiatis/Matyat; Nicosia (Omeriye Mosque); Polemidia/Binatli; Vasileia-Keryneias; Vretsia/Dagacan; and Zacharia/Tatlica...

Icons and artifacts looted and smuggled abroad.

Who bought them and paid for their smuggling?

Why dont you read here to find out:

http://www.archaeology.org/9807/etc/special.html

"A major break came this past October when Munich police arrested 60-year-old Aydin Dikman, a central figure in the looting and selling of the church treasures."

I have read that; I know he did that.

Why don't you read your own (former) Director of Antiquities' autobiography, and his catalogues of private collections, to find out that the government and the private collectors all bought illicit antiquities between 1963 and 1974?

Why don't you read your side's propaganda to find out that the Republic, and the Church, and the Leventis Foundation have all bought illicit antiquities since 1974?

Why are you whining gayreek is the response im hearing from some TCs in this forum. Names of towns and villages have been changed and were converted into Turkish ones. Is it really hard to say Morphou? After peace operation 1974, its been given the name Güzelyurt.

Say it with me now....G ü z e l y u r t.

Where in history is Morphou called G ü z e l y u r t?

Doesn't Guzelyurt mean Morphou in Turkish? "Beautiful place" or something like that? I vaguely remember someone saying that "yurt" might mean it referred to the beautiful Turkish homeland, but I'm not sure.

What??? Before the expulsion of the entire GC population in 1974 from Morphou, the city was called Omorfo by the Turkish Cypriots. Omorfo not Güzelyurt!

Yes, but Omorfo isn't a Turkish word and doesn't mean anything in Turkish; (unless it does refer to the Turkish homeland...) Guzelyurt is the Turkish-language word for Morphou. (I suppose Guzelce, or Guzelli, or something might be slightly more direct translations.)

Again - as always, again - I'm not denying they changed places' names and I'm not defending it; but I'm not defending the Greek Cypriots doing the same thing, either.

Are there really two sides to the destruction of anything GC in the North?

The only thing i see from the TC contributors here (with the exception of one) is how happy they are to be a Turk and living in the TRNC.

Well, sometimes Pontic Turkish Muslim settlers converted a church into a mosque to protect the church from destruction by Turkish Cypriot nationalists. So yes, sometimes there are two sides even to the treatment of churches in the North. But again, no-one (sensible) is saying that churches were not damaged or destroyed. They are saying, however, that Turkish Cypriot mosques, homes and villages were also destroyed, and propaganda does not help anyone.

They're no two sides to this war crime. Shame on you.

I don't know whether you're deliberately trying to shit-stir, or whether you genuinely didn't understand. I'll assume you didn't understand.

I wasn't defending destruction.

I did defend conversion when it was done to prevent destruction.

I think destroying mosques and homes and villages is as bad as destroying churches.

I think both communities suffered; both sides' paramilitaries committed war crimes; and anyone's propaganda harms everyone.

[Oracle]

The GCs also destroyed lots of mosques and damaged lots of others. (And many of the damaged or destroyed churches were damaged or destroyed by TCs.)

This is where numbers would serve a purpose, if only to shut you up with trying to make out the magnitude was the same and hence tarring the GCs with the same brush as the Turks. This is unhelpful, not because we wish propaganda, but a rightful end to the atrocities on our island. Do not fall victim to the liberalist view that everything in life is equal ... Sometimes one party really is more destructive than the other!

Akritas, EOKA-B - they didn't have any impact, or they weren't nationalists?

So tell me what they did in the few years they were reputed to have been active?

And the EOKA campaign was not just to remove the Brits, but to Hellenise the island and achieve enosis.)

Irrelevant to the context ... did they take time out to destroy Mosques? I think NOT!
Prove otherwise with more than words!

Are you telling me you don't know of any streets named after EOKA heroes?

Yup ... my street is NOW named after an EOKA hero ... but that's because it never once in its history had a name (and was not even recognised as a street until the 90's).

You really are so out of touch with the reality on the ground!

Many of the Brits knew ancient Greek, so used that to talk with the Greek Cypriots; and being Christian, they tended to socialise with the GCs rather than the TCs. So, they produced a Hellenocentric map. The Brits made the place names less "Turkish".

What tosh! Ancient Greek speaking squaddies!

The Brits knew the enemy were the GCs who loved Cyprus more than the expansionist opportunist Turks.

They socialised with Turk-TCs or no one ... certainly not GCs who despised them for taking away their freedom and giving inordinate power to the TCs!

You need to read history with open eyes, a questioning mind, and from disparate sources as your simplistic view is an embarrassment to your credentials.

Did they bulldoze your home?

No because it was not abandoned or in such a state of disrepair that it needed to be bulldozed for safety. But they bulldozed my aunts house just a few hundred yards away after the Paphos earthquake ... she supervised having a new one erected in its place ... but if she was abroad or "away" this may not have happened.

Sometimes these things have a perfectly innocent explanation, Mr. Angry young Man.

... And yes, the rest of your between-the-line-comments are pitifully, transparently biased ....

I hope you have an intelligent external examiner as you need a wake up call!