Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

"Separately, there are specific rules for foreigners purchasing property in the north and you should ensure you are fully aware of these."

It obviously refers to the purchase of pre-1974 TC owned properties. There is no problem buying and selling these properties.

The UK Government clearly thinks that buying property in the TRNC is okay - otherwise why offer advice on how to go about it properly with awareness of local laws?

What the corrupted UK political establishment thinks is one thing and what the international legality or illegality of the situation is, is another issue. Obviously, the one who is going to stand in front of the court one day and suffer the consequences, is not the corrupted UK government but the poor, unaware and miss-informed UK citizen who made the illegal purchase.

[Kifeas]

Gentlemen
I try to stay out of these ‘property’ arguments as they go round and round the same circle year in year out. We have all probably lost land / houses in either the North or South. My family has lost a huge amount, however if history teaches us anything it teaches us to listen at the negotiating table and I am afraid in this instance we are not prepared to listen and then act accordingly but would much rather bleat on about the injustice and illegality to an ever decreasing audience. It is an unfortunate fact that possession is nine tenths of the law. How long are we going to go on bemoaning the fact that an injustice has occurred, will anybody care in 300 years time?
I have deepest sympathy for all who have lost ancestral homes, including myself, but until we find the intelligence to negotiate which must start by an acceptance of guilt by all parties then I am afraid our children’s children’s children will be referring to us as the morons who in the late 20th and early 21st centuries were incapable of communicating yet somehow managed to conquer inner and outer space. The fact is that the situation as it stands today is going to matter less to the majority of mankind as time moves on. The time, I am sorry to say, for moaning is over, it is now time to either put up or shut up. The world is moving on & it will not wait for anyone. We all want our properties back, of course we do, but we must face facts, like them or not and more importantly deal with them. In the meantime during the last 31 years of procrastination other generations are being born who will claim that the land as theirs and who could blame them.
Think of it another way, think of the Cypriots who were dispossessed during the troubles and fled to America, Australia and England. Many of them were housed and their offspring and theirs after them too are living as indigenous people. It could be said that they are occupying property that a true American, Australian or Englishman should have but can’t.
Animals in the wild learn to co exist and very quickly learn that united they stand but divided they fall, it is a shame that we are not capable of doing the same. Perhaps God has realised his dreadful mistake of allowing humans to occupy the planet only to see them slowly destroy it and themselves, perhaps the animals are the superior beings after all. We certainly do not seem to show any evidence to the contrary.

Michael Coumas! Please give us a break!

And thanks for comparing us with the Australian aborigines, the American Indians, the MaoMao and the Zulu of Africa! I am sorry to disappoint you but we have a slightly different view for our selves and definately some different sense of historical consciousness in this country, (if you know what this means.) Furthermore, It seems that although you live in the “civilised” UK of the 21st century and the EU, you are still thinking in terms of the middle ages were the usurping of other peoples lands was a “normal” thing to do by the imperial powers.

Can you tell us what else have we being doing for the last 30 years, other than negotiating?

[Michael Coumas]

Kifeas – You have me totally wrong. I am not comparing anybody with anyone else, merely trying to make a point. I did consider the phrase “put up or shut up” may raise an eyebrow or two but hoped it would be taken in the spirit within which it was intended. As this forum is in English may I respectfully point out the term is used as a way of saying it is now time for action rather than words (and I do not mean anything other than political action)
I currently live in the UK, although I am not sure I can agree with your comment that it is civilised, I guess that view is a subjective one, because that is where my work happens to be. Would it make any difference to anyone’s views if I was still to be living in Tripoli, Abu Dhabi, Stavanger or Gothenburg.
I am aware of the Countries problems in fact possibly a little more so than some, I lived through the period, lost members of my family and yes I do have feelings. My thinking is not formed by any legacy of “Imperial Powers” quite the contrary, my views are based on small Cypriot village community life coupled with a profession that basically means if you make a mistake you die. That becomes a good incentive to have foresight, forethought and to make doubly sure what the consequences of each of your actions will be and above all to have contingency plans. I merely wish that politicians had the same incentives to find solutions although accept that their actions are probably well intended. Kifeas, I respect your views and will fight to protect your right to those views even if they differ from mine and if we must have opposing views then so be it, we must agree to disagree, but I never accept that “negotiating” at least with the interests of the Cyprus at heart has been conducted for the last 30 years. A lot of talking, posturing, time wasting, socialising and finding compromises to best serve outside interests perhaps and maybe a bit of negotiating too. I think you get my meaning. It is fact that we are now in the real world and must act accordingly. However that is only my view and only presented as such.

[Agios Amvrosios]

Your authorities gave you none in order to keep the matter ongoing.

Ethnic cleansing was not accepted. This is why TRNC is a Pariah Statelet that is not recognized by anyone except your big fat mother.

[Viewpoint]

Agios Amvrosios

This is why TRNC is a Pariah Statelet that is not recognized by anyone except your big fat mother.

Deal with it, its reality and will continue to be until your administration genuinely tacklesthe issue and goes back to the negotiating table in goodfaith, Agios have you been back to Esentepe recently??? its become real popular after the building of the new road, the natural beautiful is stunning, tourists love it...

[Kifeas]

Michael,
What is your village /town of origin and what age are you?
I am from Lapithos, the most beautiful place on earth and “Lakonon ktisma kai Praxandrou,” according to Strabo. I am 39 y.o.

Kifeas – You have me totally wrong. I am not comparing anybody with anyone else, merely trying to make a point.

I made the comparison as a sort of insinuation to what I found the central idea of your message to be, which more or less was that we should become somehow willing and ready to accept as a "fait accompli," the results of the invasion and continuing occupation. Am I wrong?

I did consider the phrase “put up or shut up” may raise an eyebrow or two but hoped it would be taken in the spirit within which it was intended. As this forum is in English may I respectfully point out the term is used as a way of saying it is now time for action rather than words (and I do not mean anything other than political action)

Political action is and has always been taken, as I see it, although I agree there is always potential for more. However, action for the sake of action, or in other words pointless and aimless action, will most likely make no difference. Is there something specific that the political leadership could be doing but neglects to undertake?

I currently live in the UK, although I am not sure I can agree with your comment that it is civilised, I guess that view is a subjective one, because that is where my work happens to be.

I agree! If you look at it more carefully, I said it in an allegorical sense.

I am aware of the Countries problems in fact possibly a little more so than some, I lived through the period, lost members of my family and yes I do have feelings. My thinking is not formed by any legacy of “Imperial Powers” quite the contrary, my views are based on small Cypriot village community life coupled with a profession that basically means if you make a mistake you die. That becomes a good incentive to have foresight, forethought and to make doubly sure what the consequences of each of your actions will be and above all to have contingency plans.

Do you believe that the GC leadership doesn’t possess foresight and forethought abilities? Or contingency plans for this matter?

I merely wish that politicians had the same incentives to find solutions although accept that their actions are probably well intended. Kifeas, I respect your views and will fight to protect your right to those views even if they differ from mine and if we must have opposing views then so be it, we must agree to disagree, but I never accept that “negotiating” at least with the interests of the Cyprus at heart has been conducted for the last 30 years. A lot of talking, posturing, time wasting, socialising and finding compromises to best serve outside interests perhaps and maybe a bit of negotiating too. I think you get my meaning. It is fact that we are now in the real world and must act accordingly. However that is only my view and only presented as such.

Michael, there were numerous sincere attempts in the past. You have to study and consolidate who the other side really is and what their real outmost objectives were /are. And here I am referring to no one else other than the mainland Turkish “deep state, Kemalist” establishment. Unless you believe that the other side we have to deal with and/or negotiate is the TC community, something that I simply do not agree with. Denktash has always been, and still is, part of this establishment. He has never worked for the genuine interests of the TC community but instead for those of this establishment. They were and still are the main, almost absolute guiding force of Turkish politics.

Just read this article and you will get a good briefing of what this “deep state, Kemalist” establishment is up to. http://tovima.dolnet.gr/print_article.php?e=B&f=14498&m=A16&aa=1

[Anglo]

Anglo wrote:
"Separately, there are specific rules for foreigners purchasing property in the north and you should ensure you are fully aware of these."


Kifeas wrote:It obviously refers to the purchase of pre-1974 TC owned properties. There is no problem buying and selling these properties.


I do not agree, Kifeas. Are you saying that the north has rules that say you must only buy pre-74 TC title if you are a foreigner?

You are one of the loudest opponents of the sales of dispossessed GC land - if such a law existed in the north you would be jumping for joy.

So it looks like the UK Government does recognise that the distribution of land ownership in the TRNC is regulated and it recommends the UK citizens purchase within the rules of the TRNC. Which to me, is tanatmount to saying it is okay to buy in the TRNC

[-mikkie2-]

Anglo,

I think you are talking complete and utter rubbish.

It is clear that as far as various international bodies are concerned, be it EU, UN or CoE, the original owners of land in the north are deemed to be the rightful and legal owners.

'TRNC' title deeds are worthless outside of the north of Cyprus. The way I read the FO advice is that if the land being sold was owned by a TC or was state land (a grey area this) prior to 1974 then the chnaces are that they will be ok. If the land is owned by a GC but th 'trnc' has issued a title deed then, well expect the law to fully side with the original owner.

[cannedmoose]

So it looks like the UK Government does recognise that the distribution of land ownership in the TRNC is regulated and it recommends the UK citizens purchase within the rules of the TRNC. Which to me, is tanatmount to saying it is okay to buy in the TRNC [/b]

Sorry, that's wrong. The UK advice says that purchase of land that belonged to either to Turkish-Cypriot or foreign owners prior to 1974 is effectively a safe buy as there are unlikely to be any future claims upon it. However, the TRNC-title land is largely the spoils taken from former GC owners and is therefore likely to disputes over ownership in the future.

The fact that pre-1974 TC and foreign-owned land is exempt from the warning doesn't recognise the land-redistribution since then. It simply says that the title to the land is not likely to be disputed and hence there should be no barriers to buying it.

[Anglo]

Anglo wrote:
The UK Government clearly thinks that buying property in the TRNC is okay - otherwise why offer advice on how to go about it properly with awareness of local laws?


Kifeas wrote:
What the corrupted UK political establishment thinks is one thing and what the international legality or illegality of the situation is, is another issue. Obviously, the one who is going to stand in front of the court one day and suffer the consequences, is not the corrupted UK government but the poor, unaware and miss-informed UK citizen who made the illegal purchase.

You are making me laugh now.

You are saying that the opinions of a major European Union member, a permanent Security Council member at the UN and one of the G8, not to mention a Guarantor state in relation to Cyprus, are just to be shrugged off.

The only court cases will be in the Mickey Mouse courts of southern Cyprus where you can get a judge to rubber stamp a political decision. No impartial courts will entertain the latest round of propaganda.[/quote]