Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

As Shah quite rightly stated nothing stays the same and time coupled with the lack of a solution will at some point be used to force open the deadlock, Political gain always is explosive and can generate new situations everyday..eg the GC south entering the EU or the USA needing a favor from the Turks could change the whole ball game. We will not capitulate to GC demands in any way shape or form as we are a side that has to be say yes to any new agreements, we to just like the GCs have the right to reject anything we do not feel is right for us and be sure we will reject it.

Id rather wait for recognition in 100+ years time or even the slightest of hope for recognition than be reduced to minority status in a GC state run by GCs without safeguards and guarantees. This situation will change with another failure be sure of that and I get a feeling the GCs will not be to pleased just as they were not with the AP.

Of course time waits for no one, nor does it stay the same. I have sited this to you many times that "Time Does Not Stand Still" and it has not. But since 1974 when partition was forced on the island, who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still. Has it been the TCs in their newly found so called "country" in the north or the badly beaten and bruised GCs in the south. All evidence show that it has been the GCs who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still and the trajectory of this continued benefit seems to be all going in the GCs way in many folds each year and tremendous amount since 2004 when the RoC became a EU member. On the other hand, the TCs trajectory of "benefits" has gone down since 2004 by many folds. I'm no mathematician, but even a layman like myself can see the difference between the two trajectories for both the communities and quite clearly, the south is gaining far more than losing where it has been the complete opposite for the north, so yes, it is true, that Time Does Not Stand Still. You can wait for the Americans to be in need of a favour from Turkey so badly, so that in the hopes to change the trajectory of the north to reverse itself, or you may find that Turkey may not be a suitable partner for the Americans to count on given what happened in 2003. Americans have a long memory as to who their friends are in time of need and who they thought their friends were in time of need, specially if OIL is found in Cypriot waters and America being addicted to oil, can find new friends in Cyprus very easily. Time Does Not Stand Still. It has not in the past and it will not in the future, so don't wait for time to change your fortunes, or misfortunes as the case is with the downward trajectory of the north for the last 35 years.!

[Viewpoint]

As Shah quite rightly stated nothing stays the same and time coupled with the lack of a solution will at some point be used to force open the deadlock, Political gain always is explosive and can generate new situations everyday..eg the GC south entering the EU or the USA needing a favor from the Turks could change the whole ball game. We will not capitulate to GC demands in any way shape or form as we are a side that has to be say yes to any new agreements, we to just like the GCs have the right to reject anything we do not feel is right for us and be sure we will reject it.

Id rather wait for recognition in 100+ years time or even the slightest of hope for recognition than be reduced to minority status in a GC state run by GCs without safeguards and guarantees. This situation will change with another failure be sure of that and I get a feeling the GCs will not be to pleased just as they were not with the AP.

Of course time waits for no one, nor does it stay the same. I have sited this to you many times that "Time Does Not Stand Still" and it has not. But since 1974 when partition was forced on the island, who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still. Has it been the TCs in their newly found so called "country" in the north or the badly beaten and bruised GCs in the south. All evidence show that it has been the GCs who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still and the trajectory of this continued benefit seems to be all going in the GCs way in many folds each year and tremendous amount since 2004 when the RoC became a EU member. On the other hand, the TCs trajectory of "benefits" has gone down since 2004 by many folds. I'm no mathematician, but even a layman like myself can see the difference between the two trajectories for both the communities and quite clearly, the south is gaining far more than losing where it has been the complete opposite for the north, so yes, it is true, that Time Does Not Stand Still. You can wait for the Americans to be in need of a favour from Turkey so badly, so that in the hopes to change the trajectory of the north to reverse itself, or you may find that Turkey may not be a suitable partner for the Americans to count on given what happened in 2003. Americans have a long memory as to who their friends are in time of need and who they thought their friends were in time of need, specially if OIL is found in Cypriot waters and America being addicted to oil, can find new friends in Cyprus very easily. Time Does Not Stand Still. It has not in the past and it will not in the future, so don't wait for time to change your fortunes, or misfortunes as the case is with the downward trajectory of the north for the last 35 years.!

Good luck to the GCs they have stolen and milked recognition for all its worth (offshore accounts included) but when you consider where we were 35 years ago we are now in heaven, its all a matter of viewpoint and priority. The USA example was just something off the top of my head and there are many other variables that can suddenly change when yet again no solution is agreed. The petrol ssue could also be a catalyst that may propel recognition theres no telling what the big guys will cook up especially when they realize that TCs and Gcs cannot agree to live together as their differencies are to wide to bridge. All a matter of time as you say yourself nothing is guaranteed as you seem to think things will go all the GCs way but over many years the GCs may just well be in for the shock of thier lives when the tide turns against them.

As I have said before we would rather live in a TRNC with a 1000 times more problems than be second class citizens as a minority in a GC state run byy GCs where we are dominated and discriminated against....we demand safeguards and guarantees plenty of them to make sure no side including us steps out of line ever again.

[Kikapu]

As Shah quite rightly stated nothing stays the same and time coupled with the lack of a solution will at some point be used to force open the deadlock, Political gain always is explosive and can generate new situations everyday..eg the GC south entering the EU or the USA needing a favor from the Turks could change the whole ball game. We will not capitulate to GC demands in any way shape or form as we are a side that has to be say yes to any new agreements, we to just like the GCs have the right to reject anything we do not feel is right for us and be sure we will reject it.

Id rather wait for recognition in 100+ years time or even the slightest of hope for recognition than be reduced to minority status in a GC state run by GCs without safeguards and guarantees. This situation will change with another failure be sure of that and I get a feeling the GCs will not be to pleased just as they were not with the AP.

Of course time waits for no one, nor does it stay the same. I have sited this to you many times that "Time Does Not Stand Still" and it has not. But since 1974 when partition was forced on the island, who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still. Has it been the TCs in their newly found so called "country" in the north or the badly beaten and bruised GCs in the south. All evidence show that it has been the GCs who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still and the trajectory of this continued benefit seems to be all going in the GCs way in many folds each year and tremendous amount since 2004 when the RoC became a EU member. On the other hand, the TCs trajectory of "benefits" has gone down since 2004 by many folds. I'm no mathematician, but even a layman like myself can see the difference between the two trajectories for both the communities and quite clearly, the south is gaining far more than losing where it has been the complete opposite for the north, so yes, it is true, that Time Does Not Stand Still. You can wait for the Americans to be in need of a favour from Turkey so badly, so that in the hopes to change the trajectory of the north to reverse itself, or you may find that Turkey may not be a suitable partner for the Americans to count on given what happened in 2003. Americans have a long memory as to who their friends are in time of need and who they thought their friends were in time of need, specially if OIL is found in Cypriot waters and America being addicted to oil, can find new friends in Cyprus very easily. Time Does Not Stand Still. It has not in the past and it will not in the future, so don't wait for time to change your fortunes, or misfortunes as the case is with the downward trajectory of the north for the last 35 years.!

Good luck to the GCs they have stolen and milked recognition for all its worth (offshore accounts included) but when you consider where we were 35 years ago we are now in heaven, its all a matter of viewpoint and priority. The USA example was just something off the top of my head and there are many other variables that can suddenly change when yet again no solution is agreed. The petrol ssue could also be a catalyst that may propel recognition theres no telling what the big guys will cook up especially when they realize that TCs and Gcs cannot agree to live together as their differencies are to wide to bridge. All a matter of time as you say yourself nothing is guaranteed as you seem to think things will go all the GCs way but over many years the GCs may just well be in for the shock of thier lives when the tide turns against them.

As I have said before we would rather live in a TRNC with a 1000 times more problems than be second class citizens as a minority in a GC state run byy GCs where we are dominated and discriminated against....we demand safeguards and guarantees plenty of them to make sure no side including us steps out of line ever again.

You will need to explain to me how the TCs would become a second class citizens when they will enjoy all the benefits as a majority in the north state (if my BBF plan is followed). Federal and state offices and municipalities in the north will also employ mostly TCs because of language, so where do you see second class citizenship coming in.?

Over time, I have given you few versions of how I see a settlement based on Democracy, Human Rights, International laws and now the EU principles. You often talk about safeguards and guarantees but I never understood what they are exactly and how you can implement them with the above principles that I have given you. Can you please tell us how you would apply the safeguards and guarantees and not violate anyone else’s Democratic and Human Rights. If you can do it, I would support them, so lets see what these safeguards and guarantees are first and then show us how you would implement them without committing any violations of other basic rights.......thanks.!

[Viewpoint]

As Shah quite rightly stated nothing stays the same and time coupled with the lack of a solution will at some point be used to force open the deadlock, Political gain always is explosive and can generate new situations everyday..eg the GC south entering the EU or the USA needing a favor from the Turks could change the whole ball game. We will not capitulate to GC demands in any way shape or form as we are a side that has to be say yes to any new agreements, we to just like the GCs have the right to reject anything we do not feel is right for us and be sure we will reject it.

Id rather wait for recognition in 100+ years time or even the slightest of hope for recognition than be reduced to minority status in a GC state run by GCs without safeguards and guarantees. This situation will change with another failure be sure of that and I get a feeling the GCs will not be to pleased just as they were not with the AP.

Of course time waits for no one, nor does it stay the same. I have sited this to you many times that "Time Does Not Stand Still" and it has not. But since 1974 when partition was forced on the island, who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still. Has it been the TCs in their newly found so called "country" in the north or the badly beaten and bruised GCs in the south. All evidence show that it has been the GCs who has benefited the most from Time Not Standing Still and the trajectory of this continued benefit seems to be all going in the GCs way in many folds each year and tremendous amount since 2004 when the RoC became a EU member. On the other hand, the TCs trajectory of "benefits" has gone down since 2004 by many folds. I'm no mathematician, but even a layman like myself can see the difference between the two trajectories for both the communities and quite clearly, the south is gaining far more than losing where it has been the complete opposite for the north, so yes, it is true, that Time Does Not Stand Still. You can wait for the Americans to be in need of a favour from Turkey so badly, so that in the hopes to change the trajectory of the north to reverse itself, or you may find that Turkey may not be a suitable partner for the Americans to count on given what happened in 2003. Americans have a long memory as to who their friends are in time of need and who they thought their friends were in time of need, specially if OIL is found in Cypriot waters and America being addicted to oil, can find new friends in Cyprus very easily. Time Does Not Stand Still. It has not in the past and it will not in the future, so don't wait for time to change your fortunes, or misfortunes as the case is with the downward trajectory of the north for the last 35 years.!

Good luck to the GCs they have stolen and milked recognition for all its worth (offshore accounts included) but when you consider where we were 35 years ago we are now in heaven, its all a matter of viewpoint and priority. The USA example was just something off the top of my head and there are many other variables that can suddenly change when yet again no solution is agreed. The petrol ssue could also be a catalyst that may propel recognition theres no telling what the big guys will cook up especially when they realize that TCs and Gcs cannot agree to live together as their differencies are to wide to bridge. All a matter of time as you say yourself nothing is guaranteed as you seem to think things will go all the GCs way but over many years the GCs may just well be in for the shock of thier lives when the tide turns against them.

As I have said before we would rather live in a TRNC with a 1000 times more problems than be second class citizens as a minority in a GC state run byy GCs where we are dominated and discriminated against....we demand safeguards and guarantees plenty of them to make sure no side including us steps out of line ever again.

You will need to explain to me how the TCs would become a second class citizens when they will enjoy all the benefits as a majority in the north state (if my BBF plan is followed). Federal and state offices and municipalities in the north will also employ mostly TCs because of language, so where do you see second class citizenship coming in.?

Over time, I have given you few versions of how I see a settlement based on Democracy, Human Rights, International laws and now the EU principles. You often talk about safeguards and guarantees but I never understood what they are exactly and how you can implement them with the above principles that I have given you. Can you please tell us how you would apply the safeguards and guarantees and not violate anyone else’s Democratic and Human Rights. If you can do it, I would support them, so lets see what these safeguards and guarantees are first and then show us how you would implement them without committing any violations of other basic rights.......thanks.!

Wıthout the safeguards and guarantees I talk about we will be pushed to one side in Federal and state offices and municipalities, to counter this we have to have specified representation in all walks of life so that GCs are not lallowed to create conditions where they can discriminate and reduce us to second class citizens. The guarantees are both for security eg Turkey and a guaranteed balance in power that would allow us to say no when we are threatened or exploited by the numerical majority, this does not have to be on ever issue but those that have not been built into the consitituion and open to manipulation by the experts who will try to use loop holes to their benefit. Safeguards acting as deterrants should also be put firmly in place to stop deviation for the original agreement as experienced in the past.

[boulio]

how about 25% in all offices and positions for ethnic minorities of the republic?

[Kikapu]

Wıthout the safeguards and guarantees I talk about we will be pushed to one side in Federal and state offices and municipalities, to counter this we have to have specified representation in all walks of life so that GCs are not lallowed to create conditions where they can discriminate and reduce us to second class citizens. The guarantees are both for security eg Turkey and a guaranteed balance in power that would allow us to say no when we are threatened or exploited by the numerical majority, this does not have to be on ever issue but those that have not been built into the consitituion and open to manipulation by the experts who will try to use loop holes to their benefit. Safeguards acting as deterrants should also be put firmly in place to stop deviation for the original agreement as experienced in the past.

Wıthout the safeguards and guarantees I talk about we will be pushed to one side in Federal and state offices and municipalities, to counter this we have to have specified representation in all walks of life so that GCs are not lallowed to create conditions where they can discriminate and reduce us to second class citizens.

So what does that mean exactly when you say "specified representation in all walks of life ".? Do you mean Proportionate Representation or does it mean equal numbers from the GCs and the TCs in every situation. Lets take a national airline like Cyprus Airways as an example. You have a CEO & President and board of directors I presume. Now, how do you want to run this company. Do you want to have 2 CEO's and 2 Presidents and equal number of board members made up from TCs and GCs, or TCs in this company at 1:4 ratio as in Proportionate Representation. The second one I can go along with you, but the first one will never fly, excuse the pun. I'm personally against quotas because it will place in the minds of people that the TCs are not just a numerical minorities, but they actually are, since quotas has always been associated with minorities. Quotas give the impression that the only reason a TC got a job in certain position and company, is because of quotas and not because they had earned it. It is a terrible stigma which I really do not want for the TCs to have quotas, but in our last conversation on this many months ago, I have also told you that quotas may need to be introduced perhaps for the first 10 years just to play "catch up" with the GCs . The second reason why I do not like quotas is, it puts a ceiling on number of TCs that can be hired by any particular company of political offices, no matter how good the TC candidate for the job may be, they will be refused admission, because the TC quotas had been already reached. Therefore, after the first 10 years, all quotas must come to an end and make the job market place free for all.

The guarantees are both for security eg Turkey and a guaranteed balance in power that would allow us to say no when we are threatened or exploited by the numerical majority, this does not have to be on ever issue but those that have not been built into the consitituion and open to manipulation by the experts who will try to use loop holes to their benefit. Safeguards acting as deterrants should also be put firmly in place to stop deviation for the original agreement as experienced in the past.

Turkey never had the role as a TC protectorate in the 1960 Constitution. Turkey was a guarantee power along with Greece and the UK for only to restore the government in the event. Therefore, Turkey was a guarantors for everyone and not just the TCs, and since they all failed to restore the RoC government after the 1974 coup, non of them can be trusted to be a guarantor any longer. Not only they did not keep to their obligations, but they also violated many of the articles in the 1960 Constitution. Funny enough, despite the coup happened by the Junta in Greece, a non elected entity, Greece today comes out smelling like a Rose over Turkey actions in Cyprus for the last 35 years and UK who did absolutely nothing to help the Cypriots, therefore they too will not be needed as guarantors any longer, What for, they all broke their obligations. They have all failed in their duty, so it's time to tell them all to look somewhere else to be a guarantor, but not in Cyprus.

Having a "NO" vote will not be allowed in my opinion, because you too can abuse this power. All your concerns about "safeguards" can be put in the constitution, so if there ever were to be a case where it appears to be unconstitutional, the legal system will take care of it. You can appeal it all the way the ECHR if you are not satisfied with the Supreme court's decision in Cyprus. A NO vote is totally undemocratic and it will not be accepted in a Democratic country. I would make it really difficult to amend the constitution, so that all your safeguards are protected from being changed too easily. At the same time, Constitutions must be allowed to amend from time to time, since situations change with the times, and so must the constitution.

[Nikitas]

Unforeseeable variables are just that, unforeseeable. They could favor the other side just as easily. Discovering oil in the south is one possibility, the other is the EU getting fed up with Turkish games over illegal immigrants flooding the EU through its deliberately unguarded ports. It could be anything since it is unforeseeable.

[YFred]

Nikitas, have you considered the unknown unknowns?

[CBBB]

I may be simple, but how could an EU member state pass laws that discriminate against any legally resident minority within in it's border?

I know there are dickheads on both sides, but the EU Aquis would protect all residents of a unified island.

[YFred]

I may be simple, but how could an EU member state pass laws that discriminate against any legally resident minority within in it's border?

I know there are dickheads on both sides, but the EU Aquis would protect all residents of a unified island.

You are right. You are simple.

It’s not the passing of the laws that one has to worry about; it’s the implementation of them. In UK we have anti-racist laws, does that mean that racism does not exist. Hell it doesn’t!