Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu has never been to the TRNC, I am also very suspiscious that he is a GC fighting their corner disguised as a TC, not once has put forward or supported anything remotely in favour of the TCs and their viewpoint. You will see his posts run us into the ground and he revels in ridiculing and degrading anything we put forward.

You wished that I was a GC, so that you can say "Kikapu is always beating me up because of my Fascistic views, because he is a GC and I'm a "Turk of Cyprus".!

I fight my corner as a Cypriot for the benefit for all Cypriots. I don't care if you are a GC, TC or any other numerical minorities in Cyprus.

Any proposals I put can only include True Democracy, Human Rights and International Laws. Anything other than those principles, I do not support, so give me something to support that the TCs agree with the above principles. Recently I had asked you to do just that and your response was;

"Im not putting anything forward for you to rip to shreds, fell into that trap to many times."

A true Cypriot indeed and Kikapu has my utmost respect .We both stand for what is just and right for Cyprus not for what is Turkish and what is Greek.

So you support the fact the he has not once supported or defended an arguement put forward by any TCs, at least you have from time to time you have supported or defended us unlike Kikapu, that in itself speaks volumes.

I gave the TCs a wonderful BBF Power sharing plan but you refused, because it was not the Annan Plan, so you did not like it. What I gave you is what you will be force to accept as far as Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and the EU Principles goes if the north or Turkey ever wants to be in the EU. "The Racist AP Train" left the station in 2004 and it is long gone. You better get use to that fact, because it is on a one-way trip to nowhere and it's not coming back.................R.I.P.!

"Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!"

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

What you tried to fool us with was a death trap..total capituation.

Says the Idiot who does not believe in Democracy, Human Rights and International Laws. I say idiot, because I laid everything in plain English for you and you still thought it was another version of the Annan plan in the beginning. After you were told it was not another AP, you started to sulk, so don't pretend now that you discovered something that was hidden. You couldn't find your way out of maze without directions, let alone finding hidden parts in my plan. If you were so good discovering disguised plans, how come you did not discover that the AP was actually a partition plan, because even today, after 5 years, you are stuck on that plan as if it was the second coming of Christ. Well, then again, it was, wasn't it, but you will never admit to it, because you are morally corrupted who would knowingly accept such a Racist and Disgusting plan. That just about sums up all you Fascist NeoPartitionist.

I guess you are happy that Talat wants to negotiate on territorial split where he wants to give less land to the GCs than the AP did, which means you are going to have around 150,000 GC refugees right to return to the north who will be equal with you in numbers, after 50,000 settlers have been given Cypriot citizenship that is. Therefore, from day one, you will be 50-50 with the GCs in everything in the north, from the upper house to all the state offices, because unlike the AP, the EU will not have any permanent derogations. This means that the game is over for the TCs in the north, because with this kind of an advantage given to the GCs from day one, if each GC family brought just one more family member to come and live with them a little later on, the population in the north is going to be 60%-40% for the GCs in no time, and with their democratic voice, they will ask to unite with the south state. My plan was the reverse which would have had very few GCs from day one. I hope you are happy with Talat, because I have told you before, that in this case, more land is not better for the TCs under "BBF" Federation which is what the UN resolutions call for and specially with no permanent derogations from the EU.!

Easily solvable guaranteed seats in the upper house. Can you cut out the sarcastic insults as I will be oblidged to stoop to your level yet again, why is it that you cannot maintain a civilized debate.

[boulio]

WIll the g/c in the north be allowed to vote for the t/c in those guranteed seats.Because im sure a g/c would vote for KIks(MODERATE T/C)THEN someone like you v/p.

[YFred]

Kikapu has never been to the TRNC, I am also very suspiscious that he is a GC fighting their corner disguised as a TC, not once has put forward or supported anything remotely in favour of the TCs and their viewpoint. You will see his posts run us into the ground and he revels in ridiculing and degrading anything we put forward.

You wished that I was a GC, so that you can say "Kikapu is always beating me up because of my Fascistic views, because he is a GC and I'm a "Turk of Cyprus".!

I fight my corner as a Cypriot for the benefit for all Cypriots. I don't care if you are a GC, TC or any other numerical minorities in Cyprus.

Any proposals I put can only include True Democracy, Human Rights and International Laws. Anything other than those principles, I do not support, so give me something to support that the TCs agree with the above principles. Recently I had asked you to do just that and your response was;

"Im not putting anything forward for you to rip to shreds, fell into that trap to many times."

A true Cypriot indeed and Kikapu has my utmost respect .We both stand for what is just and right for Cyprus not for what is Turkish and what is Greek.

So you support the fact the he has not once supported or defended an arguement put forward by any TCs, at least you have from time to time you have supported or defended us unlike Kikapu, that in itself speaks volumes.

I gave the TCs a wonderful BBF Power sharing plan but you refused, because it was not the Annan Plan, so you did not like it. What I gave you is what you will be force to accept as far as Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and the EU Principles goes if the north or Turkey ever wants to be in the EU. "The Racist AP Train" left the station in 2004 and it is long gone. You better get use to that fact, because it is on a one-way trip to nowhere and it's not coming back.................R.I.P.!

"Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!"

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

Those bloody unappreciative TCs, they don’t know a good thing even if it hits them like a steam train hey? I hope you sent the famous plan to Mr T and Mr X. They needed a bit of cheering up, and I am absolutely certain it would have worked.

You are wasted on this forum. Have you tried your luck on the comedy circuit? You may get a few laughs, but work on it and don’t give up your day job for a while, old boy, you know what I mean?

Is that the best you can do to try and demoralize me, YFred.??

Did you read any part of that plan? Actually, that was a rhetorical question, because I know you refuse to read anything, other than Racist NeoPartitionist crap. Your brain is as liquid as a Clam Chowder Soup my friend. New England style I may add, because that's how your brain's Grey Matter would look like as a soup.!

Now, go and read the plan and stop bothering me with your idiotic posts and let me when you are ready to apologize for your previous comments. Don't make the mistake of taking my kindness to you up to this point as a sign of weakness.! Idiots often do, otherwise you will live to regret it, if you did.!

From this point onwards I'll leave you alone old boy. This is the last post for you. Enjoy.

[Kikapu]

Easily solvable guaranteed seats in the upper house.

Easily solved for whom exactly, you.??

Yes, that may solve the problem for you as a small numerical minority with a "grand fathered" rights to all the seats in the upper house in your hands to do as you wish. For example, what if the repeat of 1963 will happen and an overzealous TC leader will walk off the government taking the upper house seats with him and hold the government hostage to grant them an independence for the north state, since they will be the 50% power in the government, and also having Turkey as a guarantor, they will intervene/invade to make sure those wishes are granted, and you wonder why no such thing can happen, where power is divided by the communities and not by the states, which is after all, is what the TCs agreed to in the late 70's. That example is just the tip of the iceberg with problems to come in what you have suggested. That experiment with such constitution has been tried out following the 1960 constitution and it has gotten us here today, and you still want to do it again. What's your problem, VP, do you have a learning problems from mistakes, or what.?

Lets look at the other problems that will happen if we were to go down the road you suggested.

1. The GCs will not go for it.
2. It's undemocratic and that it will violate others Human Rights in the north state who are not TCs.
3. You cannot expect people to pay taxes in the north and not have any political rights
4. It is the states who will have political equality and not communities within those state.
5. No longer one man one vote system
6. The EU will not go for it, so forget it.


These are just few things that will become a problem and if you don't see this, then I don't know what else to tell you.! The EU already told you that there will not be any derogations, which is not just for Freedom of Movement, but on everything. What you are asking for will never be agreed by anyone, and nobody will sympathize with you if you back out of the settlements talks on this issue. No self respecting country in the EU or the USA will agree to this in 2009. No way. Past morally corrupted individuals are no longer around to give it to you like Bush, Blair or Annan. You are on your own on this one and no one will buy your argument that you must have it or else. They will just show you the way to the door, that's all.!

Can you cut out the sarcastic insults as I will be oblidged to stoop to your level yet again, why is it that you cannot maintain a civilized debate.

Don't expect me to send you "love & kisses" when you write insulting crap, just like what you wrote below. You want to be treated nicely, then act accordingly, otherwise you will get more of the same.!

"What you tried to fool us with was a death trap..total capituation"

[The Cypriot]

Kiks, you have the logic of a mathematician, and the patience of a saint.

[Viewpoint]

Easily solvable guaranteed seats in the upper house.

Easily solved for whom exactly, you.??

Yes, that may solve the problem for you as a small numerical minority with a "grand fathered" rights to all the seats in the upper house in your hands to do as you wish. For example, what if the repeat of 1963 will happen and an overzealous TC leader will walk off the government taking the upper house seats with him and hold the government hostage to grant them an independence for the north state, since they will be the 50% power in the government, and also having Turkey as a guarantor, they will intervene/invade to make sure those wishes are granted, and you wonder why no such thing can happen, where power is divided by the communities and not by the states, which is after all, is what the TCs agreed to in the late 70's. That example is just the tip of the iceberg with problems to come in what you have suggested. That experiment with such constitution has been tried out following the 1960 constitution and it has gotten us here today, and you still want to do it again. What's your problem, VP, do you have a learning problems from mistakes, or what.?

Lets look at the other problems that will happen if we were to go down the road you suggested.

1. The GCs will not go for it.
2. It's undemocratic and that it will violate others Human Rights in the north state who are not TCs.
3. You cannot expect people to pay taxes in the north and not have any political rights
4. It is the states who will have political equality and not communities within those state.
5. No longer one man one vote system
6. The EU will not go for it, so forget it.


These are just few things that will become a problem and if you don't see this, then I don't know what else to tell you.! The EU already told you that there will not be any derogations, which is not just for Freedom of Movement, but on everything. What you are asking for will never be agreed by anyone, and nobody will sympathize with you if you back out of the settlements talks on this issue. No self respecting country in the EU or the USA will agree to this in 2009. No way. Past morally corrupted individuals are no longer around to give it to you like Bush, Blair or Annan. You are on your own on this one and no one will buy your argument that you must have it or else. They will just show you the way to the door, that's all.!

Can you cut out the sarcastic insults as I will be oblidged to stoop to your level yet again, why is it that you cannot maintain a civilized debate.

Don't expect me to send you "love & kisses" when you write insulting crap, just like what you wrote below. You want to be treated nicely, then act accordingly, otherwise you will get more of the same.!

"What you tried to fool us with was a death trap..total capituation"

Ho we have learned very well from the past dont you worry about that thats why safeguards and guarantees a paramount for a solution. Where have i stated we should have all the seats in the upper house? what I have said is that their should be a balance that will allow us to say no when it is necessary, where there is a risk to the TC community as was the case in the past. If you allow the GCs the right to do as they wish with no restraints or deterrants they will manipulate twist and push us aside without a second thought. The upper house should have 5 TCs and 5 GCs if they cannot pass a bill then Vice President and President use their vote to stop or pas the the bill just as you described in your plan, only difference is the seats in the upper house are guarantted to 5tcs and 5gcs with the President and Vice president rotating.

I would never expect love and kisses from someone like you but I do expect the minimum of good conduct where you do not revert to personal insults and stick to the debate matter.

[Kikapu]

Kiks, you have the logic of a mathematician, and the patience of a saint.

Amen, Brother Cypriot..!

[shahmaran]

If he has never lived here obviously it would be hard for him to "know" what is for the "benefit of all Cypriots", if there really is such a thing in the first place

So what are you saying, Shah, that one has to live in the country to know that Democracy, Human Rights and International laws are what is expected of them so that they can be part of the western values system and in particular, to be part of the EU with their principles which also involves Freedom of Movement. If that's the case, why don't I hear any support on this from the Fascist forum members who live in the north, or don't you think those living in the north do not deserve the above principles. If your answer is a NO, that they don't deserve it, then you must be happy with everything that is going on in the north, therefore I don't know why the north wants to be part of the EU. I live far away from the north, and yet, I want the best for the TCs, and the best can only come from the above principles, because without those principle, you got what you have today, a "corrupted society", ruled by Turkey, under occupation per the UN and the EU, outnumbered by the settlers/ Illegal Aliens who are now in a position to out-vote you and impose their rules on you, starting with building up mosques and religious fanaticism that you hate so much, just because the TC leaders in the past have sold the TCs votes to the settlers.

I don't need to be there to know what most decent TCs want. They don’t want to live in a “corrupted society”, Shah, by continually being lead by the nose with promises of their own land that will be built mostly on stolen GC land. The present situation only seems to serve the interest of all the morally corrupted Fascist NeoPartitionist who are enjoying in committing the “Sins of Haram” with the GCs properties and since partition is never going to happen, unless of course the GCs agree to it, you are only left with two choices. Continue with the present situation, in which case you should not make any complaints at all regarding the mosques or embargoes imposed on the north, or change to a western style values with the above principles to be included in a settlement, which will benefit all Cypriots. Anything else is not worth talking about, so lets not.!

Sure if you are hoping for a solution in the next year, that might be true, but what about 50 or 100 years from now?

That would be a whole new ball game, making all your points totally void as it wont matter whether we are a part of the South or the EU.

We wont be isolated for ever Kikapu.

[Kikapu]

If he has never lived here obviously it would be hard for him to "know" what is for the "benefit of all Cypriots", if there really is such a thing in the first place

So what are you saying, Shah, that one has to live in the country to know that Democracy, Human Rights and International laws are what is expected of them so that they can be part of the western values system and in particular, to be part of the EU with their principles which also involves Freedom of Movement. If that's the case, why don't I hear any support on this from the Fascist forum members who live in the north, or don't you think those living in the north do not deserve the above principles. If your answer is a NO, that they don't deserve it, then you must be happy with everything that is going on in the north, therefore I don't know why the north wants to be part of the EU. I live far away from the north, and yet, I want the best for the TCs, and the best can only come from the above principles, because without those principle, you got what you have today, a "corrupted society", ruled by Turkey, under occupation per the UN and the EU, outnumbered by the settlers/ Illegal Aliens who are now in a position to out-vote you and impose their rules on you, starting with building up mosques and religious fanaticism that you hate so much, just because the TC leaders in the past have sold the TCs votes to the settlers.

I don't need to be there to know what most decent TCs want. They don’t want to live in a “corrupted society”, Shah, by continually being lead by the nose with promises of their own land that will be built mostly on stolen GC land. The present situation only seems to serve the interest of all the morally corrupted Fascist NeoPartitionist who are enjoying in committing the “Sins of Haram” with the GCs properties and since partition is never going to happen, unless of course the GCs agree to it, you are only left with two choices. Continue with the present situation, in which case you should not make any complaints at all regarding the mosques or embargoes imposed on the north, or change to a western style values with the above principles to be included in a settlement, which will benefit all Cypriots. Anything else is not worth talking about, so lets not.!

Sure if you are hoping for a solution in the next year, that might be true, but what about 50 or 100 years from now?

That would be a whole new ball game, making all your points totally void as it wont matter whether we are a part of the South or the EU.

We wont be isolated for ever Kikapu.

Sure if you are hoping for a solution in the next year, that might be true, but what about 50 or 100 years from now?

That would be a whole new ball game, making all your points totally void as it wont matter whether we are a part of the South or the EU.

Well, Shah, I do live in the present, therefore I can only talk about the present, give or take a year or two.!

So you are looking at things as to what they might be in 50-100 year range. What's the matter, are you not interested what's going on now and that you are already thinking that far ahead.? I like a man with a plan for the future, but that's over doing it a bit, don't you think so, Shah.!

We wont be isolated for ever Kikapu.

Forever is a long way away, Shah. In fact, it is very....very.....very very..... very very very long ways away.! I guess you like looking into the future as far as you cannot see.!

Actually, Shah, the isolation can end tomorrow. All it requires is for the Cypriots to decide to live with the same basic values as the rest of the countries in the west and the EU in general. We are after all trying to be part of the west and the EU, so what are we waiting for.? The basic requirements to join the EU will not become less if we wait longer. In fact, they may become more, therefore time is not on our side for further delays.

If back in 1571 or soon thereafter the Ottomans established the northern part of Cyprus only for their own people ("TCs"), the north would have been established as a TC land and the south would have been established as a GC land by now, and if the TCs wanted to break away from the south, it would have been no problem, specially if we had the problems we have had since 1963. Even I would have supported a separation of the "two people" at that point to form two separate states, either as a confederation or plain old self rule sovereign states. Either side could have used the so called "self determination" argument to be separate from the other on the island, and not only you would have had recognition from day one, but become a UN and a EU member also, because the previous 450 years would have been enough time passed to claim the land you have been living on to be your own exclusive state.

Well, it did not happen that way and now trying to basically “re invent the wheel” so that it can happen that way in the distant future (50-100 years) will not work. Timing is everything in life and in history. The time for Cyprus in becoming two independent states had passed 450 years ago and cannot ever materialize now and be legal at the same time or others not having any claim to it now or in the future since 3rd of the islands GC ethnic population has been removed from the north by force to make way for a possible exclusive TC state in it's place. Annan Plan in 2004 came very close in achieving what the Ottomans did not do 450 years earlier, but that opportunity for the TCs came and went, and in my humble opinion, it is not likely that it will ever come back again since everything has once again changed in 2004 by Cyprus becoming a EU member. This event alone will prevent any future attempts to split the island if any of the parties do not want to and the other party has no leverage to force it on the other party. Military Power is one thing, but Political Power is another, and the RoC has now gotten a tremendous amount of Political and Legal Power since 2004 by being in the EU, and any Military Power that once countered the RoC has now become impotent. Future history of Cyprus took a different turn in 2004, for better or for worse we don't know and that only time will tell, but it has happened all the same and will be part of Cyprus's history for the future generations to read, that the events of 2004 did in fact changed the future course of Cyprus once and for all from what could have been.

[Viewpoint]

As Shah quite rightly stated nothing stays the same and time coupled with the lack of a solution will at some point be used to force open the deadlock, Political gain always is explosive and can generate new situations everyday..eg the GC south entering the EU or the USA needing a favor from the Turks could change the whole ball game. We will not capitulate to GC demands in any way shape or form as we are a side that has to be say yes to any new agreements, we to just like the GCs have the right to reject anything we do not feel is right for us and be sure we will reject it.

Id rather wait for recognition in 100+ years time or even the slightest of hope for recognition than be reduced to minority status in a GC state run by GCs without safeguards and guarantees. This situation will change with another failure be sure of that and I get a feeling the GCs will not be to pleased just as they were not with the AP.