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EU is a guarantor to Cyprus

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:44 pm

umit07 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
umit07 wrote:First let's reach an agreement first then talk about cementing it!
IMO Guarantorship should be the last topic to be discussed. It's like trying to reach a business deal but emphasizing on the future negative implications should one side not comply, showing signs of ill intent on both sides.


It is better to discuss this right now as this is definitely one of the show stoppers to a solution.


Nearly everything is a "show stopper" when it comes to the Cyprus problem. "Guarantee" to an average TC means an effective mechanism that prevents any "misinterpretations" or foul play after the implementation of any agreement. To GC's, "Turkey's Guarantee" is seen as a raincheck to fuck Cyprus over.


Let's hope common sense prevails and that the safeguards that the EU do provide is enough. This is the only solution which could be accepted by GCs. I think most TCs would be happy with that as well. It is only the partitionists and the Turkish Army we need to worry about.
Last edited by Paphitis on Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby shahmaran » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:45 pm

The Turkish army has been here for 35 years. Military wise we have had the upper hand since and we still probably do. So I find it laughable that when we say 'no we want to keep our guarantor', we are viewed with cynical skepticism as if we are planning another attack.

35 years later it must be pretty obvious that we don't want anything more than a normal life on our island along with our fellow Cypriots.

Yet the people who caused the Turkish army to arrive in the first place seem to vigorously deny our need for some protection(!!).

Well people, 35 years later we have not fired a single bullet (well just the 1 and it was a TC officer not Turkish plus you provoked it).

So if you do not trust us then how can you expect us to trust you? Yet you go even further and demand our trust as a condition within the negotiations.

In my opinion, your way of negotiating seems to be more about forcing us into a position of your choice, rather than actually wanting a solution for a united Cyprus where we are all equal.

Maybe you don't actually want a solution but have other agendas beneath your will for "justice and human rights", which seems to be the most popular reason to make life hell for people these days anyways :roll:
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Postby umit07 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:50 pm

boomerang wrote:
umit07 wrote:
boomerang wrote:
umit07 wrote:First let's reach an agreement first then talk about cementing it!
IMO Guarantorship should be the last topic to be discussed. It's like trying to reach a business deal but emphasizing on the future negative implications should one side not comply, showing signs of ill intent on both sides.


good point umit...

how was the trip?...back yet?


Got Back yesterday, on the way to Sydney we took the Princess Hwy which was a very scenic route. As for the trip one dude that came along ( a friends friend) turned out to be a total jackass but then again the trip on a whole was OK.


did you like the cemented roads in NSW?...great for thumping the petal to the metal....I did it many times just for the thrill of high speed... :lol:

did you stop in merimbula?...a great place for fishing...been there many times as well...


No we didn't go through merimbula, ( I just looked it up on google earth :oops: ) . I liked nowra a lot. Sydney in general looks a lot greener than Melbourne but I felt it was too crowded and the roads were crap, hard to find your way around.

Next time round I plan on going to Ayers Rock ( apparently they call it Uluru now ).
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Postby bill cobbett » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:51 pm

umit07 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
umit07 wrote:First let's reach an agreement first then talk about cementing it!
IMO Guarantorship should be the last topic to be discussed. It's like trying to reach a business deal but emphasizing on the future negative implications should one side not comply, showing signs of ill intent on both sides.


It is better to discuss this right now as this is definitely one of the show stoppers to a solution.


Nearly everything is a "show stopper" when it comes to the Cyprus problem. "Guarantee" to an average TC means an effective mechanism that prevents any "misinterpretations" or foul play after the implementation of any agreement. To GC's, "Turkey's Guarantee" is seen as a raincheck to fuck Cyprus over.


Fair enough umit, you're quite right but the major, huge concession of a northern zone should on its own be more than enough guarantee.

Look at guaranteeship from the RoT angle - it gives Turkey a continued foothold and troops and influence on th. Island, all unacceptable.
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Postby shahmaran » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:05 pm

boomerang wrote:
shahmaran wrote:
boomerang wrote:shaHmaran, how many or which countries faced each other in war since they joined the EU...


How many countries like Cyprus actually joined the EU? Ever?


well the former yugoslavia is just about to join, soon...is that enough?...

aren't you forgeting ww2?...what the germans did?...no eu then but still...a lot of blood spilled everywhere...a lot more than Cyprus...but they got on...time to get on shamaran...

the eec was created 12 years after ww2 finished and 45 years later we still fucking around...

it has been 45 years, bullshit has to stop at some point in time...


Well first of all, your analogy is mostly false since there is no such thing as Yugoslavia anymore. What there is left is a bunch of divided states with only 1 of them making it to the EU so far (Slovenia). Another one recently gained recognition as an independent state (Kosovo). They are all still to join. If you really want to apply the Yugoslavia scenario to our own, you would be the Serbs, not us. So judging by the outcome, if that's the kind of a solution you see fit for us then that's totally fine by me ;)

Second, we have unjustifiably been given the "Gaza treatment" for over 40 years now!! What, you think we are just suddenly going to cave in and forget everything that has been done to us just because "its about time to get on" ? Fuck that!

For your information, just in case you don't know, we have been "getting on" without you one way or another ever since and I don't care how many self centered international suckers pose you as the sole owners of this island for their own benefit and have been trying to imprison us into our own lands ever since, because in reality you are far from it and if you don't stop reflecting this attitude to your negotiations we will just stay like this for ever and ever and ever. Its totally fine by me...
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:07 pm

The Turkish army has been here for 35 years. Military wise we have had the upper hand since and we still probably do. So I find it laughable that when we say 'no we want to keep our guarantor', we are viewed with cynical skepticism as if we are planning another attack.


And they ethnically cleansed 200,000 GCs and killed about 10,000...

They occupy Cyprus and prevent the indigenous Cypriots from returning to their homes.

35 years later it must be pretty obvious that we don't want anything more than a normal life on our island along with our fellow Cypriots.


The only thing that is obvious is that they are holding our country at ransom and are prepared to kill us given half a chance.

Yet the people who caused the Turkish army to arrive in the first place seem to vigorously deny our need for some protection(!!).


The people that caused the Turkish Army to arrive are long gone.

The new generation of Cypriots just want their island free again.

Well people, 35 years later we have not fired a single bullet (well just the 1 and it was a TC officer not Turkish plus you provoked it).


I hope you are not talking about Solomos, because I would be very disappointed.... Image

So if you do not trust us then how can you expect us to trust you? Yet you go even further and demand our trust as a condition within the negotiations.


It is not a question of not trusting the TCs. It is the Turkish Army we don't trust.

But we can also pose the same question to you. We are an EU member state, and yet this is still not enough, and you insist on Turkish Intervention rights because you don't trust us.

Cyprus has moved on from the 60s and 70s and it is about time you realized that.

In my opinion, your way of negotiating seems to be more about forcing us into a position of your choice, rather than actually wanting a solution for a united Cyprus where we are all equal.


You are wrong about this also.

It is Turkey that occupies our island and is blackmailing us to sign a solution which will discriminate against our Human Rights, and will serve its interests at annexing or dividing the island in the future.

We don't trust Turkey and you need to accept this.

Maybe you don't actually want a solution but have other agendas beneath your will for "justice and human rights", which seems to be the most popular reason to make life hell for people these days anyways. :roll:


We want a solution but we don't want a solution which will discriminate against our political and human rights.

It is Turkey that does not want the solution, hence all the unreasonable demands we can't accept...:roll:
Last edited by Paphitis on Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby boomerang » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:11 pm

shahmaran wrote:
boomerang wrote:
shahmaran wrote:
boomerang wrote:shaHmaran, how many or which countries faced each other in war since they joined the EU...


How many countries like Cyprus actually joined the EU? Ever?


well the former yugoslavia is just about to join, soon...is that enough?...

aren't you forgeting ww2?...what the germans did?...no eu then but still...a lot of blood spilled everywhere...a lot more than Cyprus...but they got on...time to get on shamaran...

the eec was created 12 years after ww2 finished and 45 years later we still fucking around...

it has been 45 years, bullshit has to stop at some point in time...


Well first of all, your analogy is mostly false since there is no such thing as Yugoslavia anymore. What there is left is a bunch of divided states with only 1 of them making it to the EU so far (Slovenia). Another one recently gained recognition as an independent state (Kosovo). They are all still to join. If you really want to apply the Yugoslavia scenario to our own, you would be the Serbs, not us. So judging by the outcome, if that's the kind of a solution you see fit for us then that's totally fine by me ;)

Second, we have unjustifiably been given the "Gaza treatment" for over 40 years now!! What, you think we are just suddenly going to cave in and forget everything that has been done to us just because "its about time to get on" ? Fuck that!

For your information, just in case you don't know, we have been "getting on" without you one way or another ever since and I don't care how many self centered international suckers pose you as the sole owners of this island for their own benefit and have been trying to imprison us into our own lands ever since, because in reality you are far from it and if you don't stop reflecting this attitude to your negotiations we will just stay like this for ever and ever and ever. Its totally fine by me...


plenty of cookies in the dark side then...ok by me...stop asking for lifting of embargoes then...your choice...

but you didn't respond to the EEC formation 12 years afetr the bloodshed...
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Postby umit07 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:11 pm

bill cobbett wrote:
umit07 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
umit07 wrote:First let's reach an agreement first then talk about cementing it!
IMO Guarantorship should be the last topic to be discussed. It's like trying to reach a business deal but emphasizing on the future negative implications should one side not comply, showing signs of ill intent on both sides.


It is better to discuss this right now as this is definitely one of the show stoppers to a solution.


Nearly everything is a "show stopper" when it comes to the Cyprus problem. "Guarantee" to an average TC means an effective mechanism that prevents any "misinterpretations" or foul play after the implementation of any agreement. To GC's, "Turkey's Guarantee" is seen as a raincheck to fuck Cyprus over.


Fair enough umit, you're quite right but the major, huge concession of a northern zone should on its own be more than enough guarantee.

Look at guaranteeship from the RoT angle - it gives Turkey a continued foothold and troops and influence on th. Island, all unacceptable.


It's all about "intensions" billy gardas. Most of the barriers are all psychological. I say people must sit down and try to understand each other first. This would mean uncovering the truth of our not so old past history. Nobody seems to have the ball's to do this, too many ideals are based on total "pollocks" ( as you say B.C).
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Postby YFred » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:16 pm

umit07 wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
umit07 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
umit07 wrote:First let's reach an agreement first then talk about cementing it!
IMO Guarantorship should be the last topic to be discussed. It's like trying to reach a business deal but emphasizing on the future negative implications should one side not comply, showing signs of ill intent on both sides.


It is better to discuss this right now as this is definitely one of the show stoppers to a solution.


Nearly everything is a "show stopper" when it comes to the Cyprus problem. "Guarantee" to an average TC means an effective mechanism that prevents any "misinterpretations" or foul play after the implementation of any agreement. To GC's, "Turkey's Guarantee" is seen as a raincheck to fuck Cyprus over.


Fair enough umit, you're quite right but the major, huge concession of a northern zone should on its own be more than enough guarantee.

Look at guaranteeship from the RoT angle - it gives Turkey a continued foothold and troops and influence on th. Island, all unacceptable.


It's all about "intensions" billy gardas. Most of the barriers are all psychological. I say people must sit down and try to understand each other first. This would mean uncovering the truth of our not so old past history. Nobody seems to have the ball's to do this, too many ideals are based on total "pollocks" ( as you say B.C).

Umit if you read this article, you will understand why most GCs and Kakali will never understand the TCs in a million years and that’s being generous. BTW be careful as you read it, a certain individual is liable to crap all over it. His name is Kakali.
Questioning the stereotypical version of the island’s history
By Charles Charalambous

The threat of a jail sentence and heavy fine made against journalist and writer Makarios Drousiotis made last week by a State Archivist raises a number of fundamental questions regarding the way Cyprus’ past is dealt with in today’s society )

ALTHOUGH there is a growing discussion among academics both in Cyprus and abroad about how the island’s history is recorded and recounted – addressing questions of collective memory, identity and nationalism – and how social history compares with the “official” version, this discussion rarely finds its way into the mainstream media or public debate.

The threat by archivist Efrosyni Parparinou was made in a June 22 letter June, based on the allegation that Dhroushiotis had certain public documents and quoted them in his latest book, Two attempts and a murder: the Greek Junta and Cyprus, 1967-1970.

Among other things, the book deals with the murder in 1970 of former EOKA fighter and Interior Minister Polycarpos Yiorkadjis. Drousiotis told the Sunday Mail that the Polycarpos Yiorkadjis Foundation had complained to Phileleftheros newspaper on Saturday, June 20 and by the Monday the state archivist’s letter was delivered to him by hand.

As far as Drousiotis is concerned, “the State Archive should be a tool for learning our history”, but “it has neither the infrastructure nor the staff to fulfil this mission – nor in fact the willingness to carry it out.”

He referred to his own experience of asking for the official transcript of a trial which had been open to the public, but which some quarters would view as politically sensitive. “The archivist found the file, but told me that official approval would be needed before it could be released,” he said. Two weeks later he was told that access had been denied.

Drousiotis said: “Hiding things away for 200 years until their value is simply archaeological and only then releasing them – is that their mission?”

There is also the question of what makes it into the State Archive. Speaking at the launch of Drousiotis’ book last month, former Attorney General Alecos Markides said that archives have been maintained at the Presidential Palace over the years, but – for example – Presidents Spyros Kyprianou and Glafcos Clerides took their archives with them at the end of their terms in office. He said that President Tassos Papadopoulos was the first to insist that papers were archived in duplicate, allowing at least one copy to remain permanently available.

Asked about the public’s level of awareness of important questions and events in the island’s modern history, Drousiotis said that despite his belief that there is a public appetite for the full facts, a “stereotypical version of history” prevails. “Reference to history starts with EOKA, makes a brief stop at 1960 and independence, then there is a blackout until 1974, and history resumes from the July 1974 coup and invasion,” he said.


Dhroushiotis’ view is supported by a item entitled “Lessons in Cypriot history” transmitted by the award-winning Neoi Fakeloi (New Files) programme on Greek channel Skai TV in March 2009. The item showed the different approaches to teaching history in schools in the north and south of the island. One part showed a class of Greek Cypriot primary school children being taught during the regular “Then Xehno” (I don’t forget) hour, which was introduced into the official curriculum shortly after the 1974 invasion.

The teacher is shown giving a short historical overview, beginning with Cyprus’ formal independence in 1960, when “joy, peace and progress prevailed”, and then immediately moving on to 1974. “What just happened,” reporter Katerina Lomvardea said in her commentary, “is that the teacher has just skipped 14 whole years of Cypriot history, arriving at the invasion of 20 July 1974, which is presented as being a bolt out of the blue”. She went on: “The children, who just previously were being told they should love the Turkish Cypriots, suddenly see them as the cause of all of Cyprus’ hurt. Exactly the same is repeated in [the standard text] The History of Cyprus, taught at secondary school level. The 14 most critical years of the course of the Cyprus problem are covered in just two out of the book’s 120 pages.”

In Drousiotis’ view, “an extremely conservative attitude” is being exercised by “a political elite which controls the education system and the media, only letting through what it approves of, and condemning any dissenting view as treacherous or unpatriotic.”

Historians would argue that the “official” version of our past facilitates the way the current political process operates, and therefore will determine our future to a significant extent – unless that version is challenged.

“History is always a political tool”, Dhroushiotis said. “The issue is for people to ask the difficult questions, to debate and to argue while allowing for alternative views, in order to have a real sense of their own history.”

n The Skai TV report can be accessed at http://www.skai.gr/player/tv/?mmid=25439



Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009
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Postby shahmaran » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:30 pm

Paphitis I'm not going to re-quote in order to save people from the hell of endless scrolling.

First of all save the repetitious and clique GC propaganda junk, no one is after to kill you anymore nor to take anything from you, if anything we want to give some back as we accepted to do so during the Annan fiasco. You are just as guilty in this ordeal and you are preventing indigenous people from their right to their country as well.

But I have to say, it is no secret that we don't trust you. I definitely do not trust you personally, and I would HATE to be left in a situation where I have to trust you. There is no way I would agree to a solution that would give you the military upper hand, NO WAY!

So I can turn the same idea around to you and say that Turkey is not the old Turkey and neither are we. They are here for our protection and our protection alone so its no threat to you if you are not planning anything stupid. Right? Turkey has said over and over again that the army will retreat once a proper solution is found. This means FIRST we find a solution and then they go. Not the other way around, that would be pretty stupid of us don't you think, I mean what do you take us for? As I have said you being an EU member means nothing, as the EU poses no sense of security for us nor should they.

And yes I am talking about Solomos (the guy on the flag post yeah?), very sad incident and I definitely DO NOT agree with what happened, not the slightest, but nor can you claim that there was no provocation. It is so easy for governments to create more propaganda material for themselves by provoking and exploiting extremist people into doing crazy shit. It is very typical and has been used all over the world.

I am sorry but I just find your government to be very insidious and there is no way I can live under them with no security.
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