Cyprus-Forum.com

[The Cypriot]

Cypriot, if you truly believe that this forum is all about us TC's going on and on about the crimes of the GC's while they are "coming to terms" with their troubled past,

I don't believe that. I didn't say that. I didn't even imply that.

then you must be pretty delusional

I'm being delusional - while you're reading things that aren't there.

as all I read is evil this barbaric that, thieves left and murderers right.

Now who's being delusional.

Are we even talking about the same forum?!

I wasn't really talking about this, or any other forum so, I'm sorry, but you've lost me.

My bad Cypriot, when you drop a comment in the middle of a discussion on a specific thread, I had assumed you were actually following the same discussion...

I was responding specifically to Tim and Paphitis's exchange...

[boomerang]

Sorry but we do not believe this for one minute,

Why would I lie, do you think?

your sides actions talk for itself..we are further from a solution today than we have ver been as the interation between the 2 sides has not brought us closer togerther far from it has had a negative impact and people dont really think there will ever be a solution nor do they want to go live in the "EU" south Cyprus or they would have moved during the past 5 years.

Haven't many taken advantage of EU citzenship and moved from the island altogether?

When will you people realize that TCs will not be fooled into uniting unless every detail is crystal clear and both sides are forced to stick to the letter of any new agreement, with plenty of safeguards guarantees and penalities for non performance.

Yes. I think I've reard this from you before.

Actions speak more than words and unless certain staps are not taken by GCs to ease the isolation no TC will ever want to compromise...if GCs can prove that a solution is far better than what we have today then they will not get any support...all we see now is you trying to sell us faulty goods which could cost us dearly in the future.

your standard of living tripled since the gates opened and you are still whining and moaning...go figure...

since your standard of living tripled what have you gave in return apart from wanting/insisting more?

and lastly how come turkey your financial piggy bank hasn't achieved a better standard of living for you the last 30 years?

[wyoming cowboy]

Philosophically, politically and selfishly it was the Tc who instigated and prodded a majority to react and they did, its as wrong to deny the majority its rights as much as the majority deny the civil rights of a minority

In the periods after the republic was formed, 1960,61,62,63, approximately 4 years of relative peace and intercommunal harmony..then the problems of 64...where did all of this suddenly come from? If you remember the early 60's was the height of the cold war between the worlds superpowers. usa vs ussr and their cohorts the warsaw pact and nato. 1960 saw the cyprus become a republic, and during the same year the cuban government was overthrown by a communist named castro. Makarios as the elected president and figurehead of cyprus choose to lead a nonaligned foreign policy for cyprus. He visited The ussr, India, China and Nasser of Egypt. All of which if existed today could be considered the axis of evil by the usa and the UK.. Its a well known corelation that the more Makarios leaned towards these countries including Tito's Yugoslavia, the more problems with interethnic violence on Cyprus..In 1963 in October there was the Cuban missile crisis in december of 63 violence erupts on cyprus..Can anyone imagine what the experts at the state dept were thinking when they see Makarios and Castro embracing in friendship, What it would mean if Cyprus became a missile base for the warsaw pact..therefore the more makarios clinged to the nonaligned the more violence erupts on cyprus. the usa and uk's proxy in instigating violence was of course the TMT. the turk cyp terrorist organization..

There was me thinking GC nepotism was the root of all evil on this island. Turns out that it was all our fault all along!

[denizaksulu]

So let me get this straight, you were happy to the watch the TC's starve to death in the enclaves after refusing them their right in the government, but you imagined that if Turkey did ever come to help them out, it would actually do what?

That's a question you should ask Turkey (or the TMT)... "Why did you drive the TC community into ghettos like a herd of cattle, to starve them off?"

Or did they sell you a... "They made me do it!" again?

Excellent point GR!

This point was discussed extensively here:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... es&start=0

If you remember, no one has been able to counter the notion that the TMT herded the TCs, some at gunpoint, into enclaves to more easily facilitate partition or Taksim.

Shah wrote:

About the guy on the flag pole, none of the country examples you provided are actually accurate since none of them had to make a choice in a situation which was the same as Cyprus at that time and place (borders, military zone, war zone, riots and provocation).

But leave that to a side, if you really want to compare their "humanity" you can simply look at the state of the countries where the military of the above examples has reached and how the civilians are treated.

So excuse my language but what the fuck are you talking about?

Have you not heard of Iraq, Afghanistan, the British Empire, Vietnam, the Aborigines and many many more nations who have suffered in the hands of the so called "civilised west" and here you are using them as a good example to how a civilian should be treated? Maybe we should talk about how the riots against the Imperialists were encountered in Africa?

All we get is inconsistencies and double standards from the brainwashed TCs such as Shah!

Apparently, the Turkish Invasion was defensive, and yet he criticises the US, Australia and Britain over Afghanistan.

You would think that if he was at least consistent, logical and demonstrated some rationale and reason, then surely the Afghan War against the Taliban and Al Qaeda is also a defensive move by those countries involved.

YET AGAIN, ANOTHER TC DOUBLE STANDARD IS EXPOSED!

Shah wrote:

So let me get this straight, you were happy to the watch the TC's starve to death in the enclaves after refusing them their right in the government, but you imagined that if Turkey did ever come to help them out, it would actually do what? Come talk to you? Maybe use some super special strategy to evacuate the TC's alone and hopefully not hurt a single GC? Maybe they can force themselves into the island against all the fierce resistance from the GC's which was backed by the Greek's and maybe bring us aid and protection and then start some talks regarding the future of the island? What was it that you expected to happen?! Do you actually know of a rescue operation where time was crucial as the enemy had started to execute the civilians en-mass, but the rescuers had to worry about the well being of the enemy rather than their own and of those to be rescued? How many Turkish soldiers died in order to actually get to us?

Here is a snippet from the above thread, that no TC has adequately been able to counter:

Here is the evidence that really does clear the air about Turkish propaganda with regards to the enclaves:

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia.

And any TC that resisted or refused to abandon their homes and move into enclaves were either murdered or went missing:

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence.

In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT.

Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

The sole aim of the enclaves was so that the TMT extremists were more easily able to gather all TCs and mobilise them towards partition. This could not be achieved if the TCs remained scattered all over Cyprus.

"Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created.

On 23 Dec 63, Turkish Gangs force Armenians to abandon their homes, shops, schools and clubs at gunpoint, to make more room for TCs and create another enclave within the Armenian quarter of Nicosia.

On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

Therefore, we can conclude that the TC claims that enclaves were set up for protection against the Greeks is false. The primary objective for the TMT was TAKSIM!

Greek Cypriots attacked Kokkina for security and defensive purposes, as the TMT, the TCs and Turkey were smuggling weapons through the Kokkina Beachhead:

The First Cyprus Crisis

In the night from 20 to 21 December 1963, a car carrying weapons for Turkish Cypriots in the Omorfita, a district of Nicosia – where armed resistance was organized – was halted on a police roadblock. After a few minutes a large crowd, mainly consisting of Turkish Cypriots, assembled nearby and the situation heated up, resulting in exchange of fire in which one policeman and two Turks were killed. This mini-uprising of Turkish Cypriots ended by Christmas of the same year, but there more skirmishes followed, as since that time Turkey began systematically organising and arming students and men younger than 30 into small units, equipped with personal weapons, bazookas and mortars. Several loads of food and ammunition were shipped from Turkey to Cyprus during the following winter, mainly by small boats and by night, which were landing in the Kokkina area.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_454.shtml

Samarkeolog Wrote:

When they attacked, Turkey bombed them back. So, the Greek Cypriots might have needed the Greeks to protect them from the Turks, but only because the Greek Cypriots attacked the Turkish Cypriots. If the Greek Cypriots hadn't attacked the Turkish Cypriots, the Turks wouldn't have attacked the Greek Cypriots.

If the TCs were not smuggling weapons from Turkey in order to further their campaign for TAKSIM, then the GCs would not have attacked.

The GCs were merely defending their island as it was evident that Kokkina was a major national threat to Cypriot Sovereignty, due to TMT weapon smuggling:

GR Wrote:

Had you done your homework you would’ve known that the Kokkina enclave was in fact a TMT forces enclave, which had a sea port that regularly received arms and other supplies from Turkish boats that fuelled the TC armed uprisings all over the island, and ultimately making it vital for Turkey’s goal of partition on Cyprus by providing her with a safe beachhead for a military ground invasion.

The fact that the TAF conducted the first aerial bombings on Cyprus as a result of the Kokkina threat by opposing forces is further concrete evidence of the importance of Kokkina for Turkey because had Kokkina fallen the entire Turkish ulterior motive for Cyprus would’ve fallen to pieces.

Therefore, the RoC government was correct in its evaluation that the Kokkina point was a major national threat and had to go! After all, the major population of Cyprus was an 82% overwhelming majority of Greek Cypriots that the Kokkina point was directly threatening.

So in order to defend the Kokkina beachhead, the TAF bombs Cyprus using these aircraft:



THK F-100 Super Sabres were very active over Cyprus in 1964. This artwork, reconstructed from several photographs showing different Turkish "Huns" in the 1960s, depicts one of F-100D in service with the THK at the time. The THK received also a sizeable batch of F-100Cs, but only from 1970 onwards. (Artwork by Tom Cooper)

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_454.shtml

They had dropped over 750lbs (340kg) of bombs and napalm:

Turkish jets had dropped 750lbs (340 kg) of bombs and napalm on their strongholds in north-west Cyprus.

"The whole area is on fire," said a spokesman for the Cypriot government.

"We cannot estimate casualties but there must be hundreds. Whole villages have been wiped out."

They also accused the Turkish government of landing troops on the north-west coast of the island.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 037898.stm

Therefore, it still stands to reason that the main objective of the TMT, was TAKSIM. Enclaves, were established to mainly assist the TMT with their mission. They armed themselves to the teeth, by smuggling arms from Turkey to Kokkina, so that they can continue with their terror campaign for TAKSIM.

Shah wrote:

There is NO EXCUSE to execute villages full of unarmed civilians and then bury them into mass graves, what is this defence? Attacks? A statement maybe? Or maybe one last blow before defeat? What was it? Can you even explain it?

Totally agree. Just like there was no excuse for Turkey to invade and kill 10,000 mostly civilian GCs, as not even one TC was hurt by the Coup.

And just like there was no excuse to murder an unarmed Solomos climbing your flap pole. Were you defending your military advantage against one civilian armed with a cigarette were you?

This was a COWARDLY act!

Shah wrote:

Excuse me but I live in Cyprus and I would NEVER EVER dare to pull a stunt as that guy on the pole did because I am absolutely certain about what the outcome would be. He made his choice and he knew very well what he was up against and it was no surprise.

As much as I do accept that it was wrong and sick and inhumane, I can also see that the guy was an absolute idiot for doing something like that. What is he a hero now? Has his death helped his cause in any way? No, all he did was make his loved ones suffer and become another propaganda tool for his fascist state. Good work Solomon.

The RoC would never kill an unarmed civilian for climbing a flag pole. That is just not the way things are done in democratic western countries.

So what if an unarmed civilian manages to burn our flag. It is only a piece of cloth, and it hardly justifies the murder of an unarmed civilian.

Shah wrote:

I'm sick and tired of these bias views to be honest, I am happy to accept the wrong doings of all sides but this shit about the GC's being ever so innocent and always the victim and the crocodile tears, sometimes I am so glad the TRNC exists.

You have done a fine job showing us your biased views by demonstrating inconsistencies within your own thoughts, a lack of rationale and logic. Well Done!

your argument was riddled with massive hypocrisy.

But nevertheless, I DO accept the wrong doings of my side. I do regret the loss of all TC victims no matter what! If I could bring them all back, I would.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I will be off line until early August. I wish you all well!

Paphitis says,

'If you remember, no one has been able to counter the notion that the TMT herded the TCs, some at gunpoint, into enclaves to more easily facilitate partition or Taksim.'.

I have to disagree with him.

I have countered these arguments a few times, but as usual it fell on deaf ears.

Unless you lived during the period you will not understand. Yes the TMT did exist. Yes, they were in charge of the defence of the civilian population. Yes, they did advise them to move into areas for better protection against the GC paramilitaries who were very active at the time. Tc villagers in remote areas were attacked and murdered all over the island, especially so in remote areas. At the time perhaps Greek Cypriot civilians also lost their lives. It was the right and common sensical view that the peasants only hope for survival was to gather in 'strong enclaves'.

It is my personal opinio that when the peasants moved to 'safe' areas, Partition' could not be further from their minds. It was their lives they were protecting. The intention was that as soon as things calmed down, that they would return to their homes. But ofcourse the GCs played right into Turkeys hands. This is the mess we find ourselves in.

I was talking to an elderly TC man a couple of months ago who described to me how in the 1963/4 conflict he along with the other TC men in his formerly mixed village fought for five days and nights to defend themselves before finally being forced to flee to Nicosia to save their lives, abandoning their land and houses. I accept that the Turkish deep state, the puppet master of the TMT, anticipated the ethnic conflict that was to come and had a master plan to create the enclaves which it executed to perfection. I accept that the events that Paphitis describes took place, but they certainly do not correspond to the general TC experience of this period as I have heard it told to me.

Hi Tim,

There may have been a 'Master Plan' known to only a very very few. But the majority of TCs would not have an inkling what these plans would entail. But it is that some GCs will place the blame on ALL TCs for all that happened. My grandfather was the Moukhtar (head of the Lower part (Kato Anglissidhes) ) and he was hoping to return to his village. He first went to Kophinou then had to move on to Ayios Theodoros - a mixed village, hoping for greater safety.

[shahmaran]

Never heard of the Akritas plan then?

Philosophically, politically and selfishly it was the Tc who instigated and prodded a majority to react and they did, its as wrong to deny the majority its rights as much as the majority deny the civil rights of a minority

In the periods after the republic was formed, 1960,61,62,63, approximately 4 years of relative peace and intercommunal harmony..then the problems of 64...where did all of this suddenly come from? If you remember the early 60's was the height of the cold war between the worlds superpowers. usa vs ussr and their cohorts the warsaw pact and nato. 1960 saw the cyprus become a republic, and during the same year the cuban government was overthrown by a communist named castro. Makarios as the elected president and figurehead of cyprus choose to lead a nonaligned foreign policy for cyprus. He visited The ussr, India, China and Nasser of Egypt. All of which if existed today could be considered the axis of evil by the usa and the UK.. Its a well known corelation that the more Makarios leaned towards these countries including Tito's Yugoslavia, the more problems with interethnic violence on Cyprus..In 1963 in October there was the Cuban missile crisis in december of 63 violence erupts on cyprus..Can anyone imagine what the experts at the state dept were thinking when they see Makarios and Castro embracing in friendship, What it would mean if Cyprus became a missile base for the warsaw pact..therefore the more makarios clinged to the nonaligned the more violence erupts on cyprus. the usa and uk's proxy in instigating violence was of course the TMT. the turk cyp terrorist organization..

There was me thinking GC nepotism was the root of all evil on this island. Turns out that it was all our fault all along!

[YFred]

Now look here Tim old chap. You can't come on to this Forum and spread falsehoods about the behaviour of the TCs in the 60s. Don't you know that they were herded into the enclaves and placed some carton cut out GC soldiers few hundred yards with guns pointing back at them and managed to convince the TCs that they were real GC soldiers who wanted to kill them if they went back to their homes.
Get your act together, old chap. You are turning into a TC from all that TC Literature you are translating, don't you know.

[Viewpoint]

Sorry but we do not believe this for one minute,

Why would I lie, do you think?

your sides actions talk for itself..we are further from a solution today than we have ver been as the interation between the 2 sides has not brought us closer togerther far from it has had a negative impact and people dont really think there will ever be a solution nor do they want to go live in the "EU" south Cyprus or they would have moved during the past 5 years.

Haven't many taken advantage of EU citzenship and moved from the island altogether?

When will you people realize that TCs will not be fooled into uniting unless every detail is crystal clear and both sides are forced to stick to the letter of any new agreement, with plenty of safeguards guarantees and penalities for non performance.

Yes. I think I've reard this from you before.

Actions speak more than words and unless certain staps are not taken by GCs to ease the isolation no TC will ever want to compromise...if GCs can prove that a solution is far better than what we have today then they will not get any support...all we see now is you trying to sell us faulty goods which could cost us dearly in the future.

your standard of living tripled since the gates opened and you are still whining and moaning...go figure...

since your standard of living tripled what have you gave in return apart from wanting/insisting more?

and lastly how come turkey your financial piggy bank hasn't achieved a better standard of living for you the last 30 years?

Any independent figures to support your assumptions?

[wyoming cowboy]

Major Macey comes to mind over and over..When the Brits were trainign and arming TMT, who were they going to use their training and weapons against?

Never heard of the Akritas plan then?

Philosophically, politically and selfishly it was the Tc who instigated and prodded a majority to react and they did, its as wrong to deny the majority its rights as much as the majority deny the civil rights of a minority

In the periods after the republic was formed, 1960,61,62,63, approximately 4 years of relative peace and intercommunal harmony..then the problems of 64...where did all of this suddenly come from? If you remember the early 60's was the height of the cold war between the worlds superpowers. usa vs ussr and their cohorts the warsaw pact and nato. 1960 saw the cyprus become a republic, and during the same year the cuban government was overthrown by a communist named castro. Makarios as the elected president and figurehead of cyprus choose to lead a nonaligned foreign policy for cyprus. He visited The ussr, India, China and Nasser of Egypt. All of which if existed today could be considered the axis of evil by the usa and the UK.. Its a well known corelation that the more Makarios leaned towards these countries including Tito's Yugoslavia, the more problems with interethnic violence on Cyprus..In 1963 in October there was the Cuban missile crisis in december of 63 violence erupts on cyprus..Can anyone imagine what the experts at the state dept were thinking when they see Makarios and Castro embracing in friendship, What it would mean if Cyprus became a missile base for the warsaw pact..therefore the more makarios clinged to the nonaligned the more violence erupts on cyprus. the usa and uk's proxy in instigating violence was of course the TMT. the turk cyp terrorist organization..

There was me thinking GC nepotism was the root of all evil on this island. Turns out that it was all our fault all along!

[Tim Drayton]

Hi Tim,

There may have been a 'Master Plan' known to only a very very few. But the majority of TCs would not have an inkling what these plans would entail. But it is that some GCs will place the blame on ALL TCs for all that happened. My grandfather was the Moukhtar (head of the Lower part (Kato Anglissidhes) ) and he was hoping to return to his village. He first went to Kophinou then had to move on to Ayios Theodoros - a mixed village, hoping for greater safety.

Absolutely. I am sure that apart from a few people in Denktash's close circle, ordinary TCs had very different concerns and issues at the time - and I only speak as one who is trying to get at the truth many years later and I realise that you experienced it all first hand and can comment with much greater authority than me.
I have become more and more convinced, though, that the Turkish deep state, which set up the TMT, set about applying a plan in Cyprus back in the 1950's that would ultimatley lead to partition. The sad thing is that partition is now so close to irreversible that one has to express grudging admiration.
What most people fail to realise is that the entity know as the 'deep state' in Turkey spun off from an organisation known as the Special War Department, which was set up by the USA and was Turkey's equivalent of Italy's Gladio. The leading echelons of this organisation reecived special training in the USA in techniques such as unconventional and psychological warfare. Somehow a great deal of what the TMT did - fining people for speaking Greek, forcing tradesmen to take down signs in Greek, preventing people from going to GC owned places of entertainment - seems to smack of such techniques.

[shahmaran]

Major Macey comes to mind over and over..When the Brits were trainign and arming TMT, who were they going to use their training and weapons against?

Never heard of the Akritas plan then?

Philosophically, politically and selfishly it was the Tc who instigated and prodded a majority to react and they did, its as wrong to deny the majority its rights as much as the majority deny the civil rights of a minority

In the periods after the republic was formed, 1960,61,62,63, approximately 4 years of relative peace and intercommunal harmony..then the problems of 64...where did all of this suddenly come from? If you remember the early 60's was the height of the cold war between the worlds superpowers. usa vs ussr and their cohorts the warsaw pact and nato. 1960 saw the cyprus become a republic, and during the same year the cuban government was overthrown by a communist named castro. Makarios as the elected president and figurehead of cyprus choose to lead a nonaligned foreign policy for cyprus. He visited The ussr, India, China and Nasser of Egypt. All of which if existed today could be considered the axis of evil by the usa and the UK.. Its a well known corelation that the more Makarios leaned towards these countries including Tito's Yugoslavia, the more problems with interethnic violence on Cyprus..In 1963 in October there was the Cuban missile crisis in december of 63 violence erupts on cyprus..Can anyone imagine what the experts at the state dept were thinking when they see Makarios and Castro embracing in friendship, What it would mean if Cyprus became a missile base for the warsaw pact..therefore the more makarios clinged to the nonaligned the more violence erupts on cyprus. the usa and uk's proxy in instigating violence was of course the TMT. the turk cyp terrorist organization..

There was me thinking GC nepotism was the root of all evil on this island. Turns out that it was all our fault all along!

EOKA-B?! Maybe?!