Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

I am not going to quote the The Kissinger Memoirs because it is rather extensive and I don't have the time.

But, please read the following extracts and draw your own conclusion:

Cyprus Crisis Pages 31-32, 40, 57, 166, 192-235, 366, 474, 479, 590, 610, 660, 689, 1020, 1064.

Anti Makarios Coup Pages 199, 204, 207-211.

Cold War Pages 194-195, 196.

Communists Pages 198-199, 205.

Czech Arms Issue Pages 202-203.

Enosis Pages 198, 207-208, 215-216.

First Turkish Military Intervention Pages 215-224.

NATO jeopardized by, Pages 194, 196, 201, 202-206, 208, 211, 212, 213.

Second Turkish Military Intervention Pages 224-233.

AND MUCH MORE!

The general gist is that both the US and UK gave the Green Light for Turkey's invasion after the coup that the US directly supported. This is after giving the Greek Junta "assurances" that Turkey will not intervene. It was agreed by both the US and UK that the Turkish Army was to take 1/3 of Cyprus and that this should be achieved within 48 hours. On the 23 Jul 1974, Turkey's Intervention proved mostly unsuccessful and the British had instructed Turkey to stop in its current position and end hostilities. The British protested to Washington and suggested that the "intervention" stop immediately. This was over ruled by Kissinger himself, who directly gave the green light for the Second Turkish Intervention in order to secure 1/3 f Cyprus as was agreed beforehand. The British protested sternly but to no avail.

Furthermore, The Australian and Canadian UNFICYP contingents were informed of Turkey's Intervention well before they landed on 20 Jul 74. They were given clear instructions to withdraw from their positions and into the safety of the British SBAs in Dhekelia and Akrotiri. The Australians and Canadians were the only UN personnel informed by the British because the Irish, Swedish, and Austrians were not trusted.

The former South Australian Police Commissioner was one of those Aussies that was ordered to retreat, and he charismatically suggested that the retreat was not due to the coup, as their safety was not in question because of that, but due to the impending invasion.

The Coup was just a means to bring about this sorry state of affairs, and a lot of research is being done, as we speak, as to Australia's and Canada's involvement by a leading Cypriot Academic.

I don't have the book.

All I'm after is a quote/passage acknowledging that Kissinger orchestrated the coup. The US had (and has) geo-strategic interests in the eastern med. When the genie was out of the bottle after the coup it had to manage the ensuing crisis as best it could and we all know what that meant for Cyprus. I've already given you a Kissinger quote denying it was his doing.

Cypriot, there are dozens of quotes and extracts, including communications between Kissinger and the Greek Junta, the American desire to remove Makarios, Double Union, and even the agreement that Turkey should take 1/3 of Cyprus within 48 hours.

There are just too many extracts which you need to read in order to understand the context of the matter. Far too many things too quote and I will need to analyze it all for hours on end to come up with a logical summary. I can't do it justice that way.

Please obtain the book, because within it there is an abundance of information on what was occurring behind the scenes.

The book is invaluable to us Cypriots, as it gives incredible insight to the Cyprus Problem which is credible. The Cyprus Conspiracy is another good book, as many things within it seem accurate and logical to me, but are unsubstantiated. The same can not be said of Henry Kissinger's memoirs. The guy was a snake...

[The Cypriot]

There was no Greek nationalism at the time. If anything, Greece was gripped by massive anti communism and America perceived Makarios to be a threat. They then instigated the coup to get rid of Makarios.

These are not conspiracy theories, but come from the horses mouth - Henry Kissinger himself.

Please read his memoirs.

Paphiti, the junta was a right-wing dictatorship. Greek nationalism was rabid in Cyprus at the time. In the 1970s Makarios was not considered a threat by America. Please can you quote me the passages from Kissinger's memoirs where he admits to orchestrating the coup.

There you go associating Greek Nationalism with extreme right wing politics.

Those against the Junta were also nationalists, because their love for Greece gave them the desire and conviction to resist.

Mikis Theodorakis was also a nationalist.

I'm a Cypriot Nationalist, because my love for Cyprus brings forth these emotions. I'm sure you are a nationalist as well.

We both agree, as Cypriot patriots, that the actions of the junta and extreme Greek nationalism in Cyprus was disastrous. The issue is how much of this action was orchestrated directly by the US and the CIA.

My contention remains that there is no evidence that Kissinger ordered and orchestrated the coup - which he explicitly has denied. After the coup, and America's role in enabling Turkey to do what she did, including bringing over settlers from Anatolia, that's a different matter. On this we agree.

[Paphitis]

There was no Greek nationalism at the time. If anything, Greece was gripped by massive anti communism and America perceived Makarios to be a threat. They then instigated the coup to get rid of Makarios.

These are not conspiracy theories, but come from the horses mouth - Henry Kissinger himself.

Please read his memoirs.

Paphiti, the junta was a right-wing dictatorship. Greek nationalism was rabid in Cyprus at the time. In the 1970s Makarios was not considered a threat by America. Please can you quote me the passages from Kissinger's memoirs where he admits to orchestrating the coup.

There you go associating Greek Nationalism with extreme right wing politics.

Those against the Junta were also nationalists, because their love for Greece gave them the desire and conviction to resist.

Mikis Theodorakis was also a nationalist.

I'm a Cypriot Nationalist, because my love for Cyprus brings forth these emotions. I'm sure you are a nationalist as well.

We both agree, as Cypriot patriots, that the actions of the junta and extreme Greek nationalism in Cyprus was disastrous. The issue is how much of this action was orchestrated directly by the US and the CIA.

My contention remains that there is no evidence that Kissinger ordered and orchestrated the coup - which he explicitly has denied. After the coup, and America's role in enabling Turkey to do what she did, including bringing over settlers from Anatolia, that's a different matter. On this we agree.

Cypriot, the junta was disastrous, but please do not hold a whole country and people responsible for what a few military officers did without the people's support. It really is not fair to those that are our allies today, and sincerely regret the Junta's actions.

If the US wanted to, they could have stopped the coup, but this was not part of their devious plan.

All the evidence is within Kissinger's memoirs. Your youtube of Nicos Sampson does not pass muster I'm afraid.

Please, before you continue to slam Greece, as opposed to the Junta, please read the book. If you don't have this book and can't obtain it, then read The Cyprus Conspiracy instead.

And BTW, Kissinger's memoirs is 1,000 pages long. Just read the relevant bits about Cyprus and Turkey.

Another thing, nationalism is not a bad thing. You seem to think this and associate nationalism with everything that is bad (Junta, Coup). I prefer to think of nationalists as those that love their country very much. Nationalists come from both ends of the political spectrum.

Nationalism helps a country survive in difficult times, and can be nation building. I told you before, that we are both nationalists and so is just about every GC on CF.

Makarios was a nationalist as well. So were all the EOKA freedom fighters.

We also have TCs who are Cypriot nationalists, such as Kikapu and maybe Deniz (?). TCs on CF who are Cypriot nationalists are a rare breed though...

[The Cypriot]

Cypriot, the junta was disastrous, but please do not hold a whole country and people responsible for what a few military officers did without the people's support. It really is not fair to those that are our allies today, and sincerely regret the Junta's actions.

Of course I don't blame a whole country for the actions of the junta. I've said so in this thread. Why would I be so silly as to do that?

Just as I don't blame all British people for the fact that their politicians at the time didn't have the gokones to stand up to Kissinger and intervene when Turkey invaded.

Just as I don't blame all Turkish people for the dastardly deeds their military committed in Cyprus and still commits to this day. That would be unfair.

It's good if Greece sincerely regrets the junta's actions. I wish they, Britain and Turkey would get together and collectively apologise to the Cypriot people. And compensate the people too.

If the US wanted to, they could have stopped the coup, but this was not part of their devious plan.

All the evidence is within Kissinger's memoirs.

I don't have the book. It would be great if you could reproduce just one or two passages which can prove he orchestrated the coup. (I have already reproduced a testimony of Kissinger's in this thread in which he denies he did).

These memoirs would surely have been referred to by Dr Andreas Constandinos, a UK Cypriot who has done a PhD on the matter, who researched the coup for three years and whose recent presentation at the London School of Economics really is worth watching.

He apologises profusely but, try as he might (and I believe he really did try) he could find no evidence of a grand US conspiracy in relation to the coup.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =firefox-a

Anyway, I concede that, even if Kissinger didn't directly orchestrate the coup, his actions and inactions during and afterwards certainly enabled Turkey to do what she did so let's just leave it there.

Your youtube of Nicos Sampson does not pass muster I'm afraid.

I know he was a puppet of the junta but it is a personal testimony and is evidence that he himself was not (knowingly) a CIA agent. It also proves that he was motivated by rabid Greek nationalism.

Please, before you continue to slam Greece, as opposed to the Junta,

I don't slam Greece. I slam the junta which was then ruling Greece.

please read the book. If you don't have this book and can't obtain it, then read The Cyprus Conspiracy instead.

I have read that book. Conspiracy theory books always tend to sell well. People love conspiracies. I remember reading it and being shocked. Britain and America's role in Cyprus was nefarious no doubt. But, having watched Dr Constandinos, I am unconvinced that the coup itself was orchestrated by Kissinger.

There were certainly US plans to divide Cyprus between Greece and Turkey, but these were drawn up in the 1960s, under the Johnson administration, when Makarios was an unknown quantity. Things had changed by the 70s.

And BTW, Kissinger's memoirs is 1,000 pages long. Just read the relevant bits about Cyprus and Turkey.

Christ man, just post me a relevant passage or two, if you must, to convince me. Alternatively watch the film and tell me where Dr Constandinos has got it wrong.

Another thing, nationalism is not a bad thing. You seem to think this and associate nationalism with everything that is bad (Junta, Coup). I prefer to think of nationalists as those that love their country very much. Nationalists come from both ends of the political spectrum.

Nationalism helps a country survive in difficult times, and can be nation building. I told you before, that we are both nationalists and so is just about every GC on CF.

Makarios was a nationalist as well. So were all the EOKA freedom fighters.

We also have TCs who are Cypriot nationalists, such as Kikapu and maybe Deniz (?). TCs on CF who are Cypriot nationalists are a rare breed though...

I've got a problem with the term nationalist. Maybe because in the UK the British Nationalist Party (BNP) is extreme right-wing. But, if by nationalist you mean patriot, then fine. We need more of them for Cyprus.

[Paphitis]

Of course I don't blame a whole country for the actions of the junta. I've said so in this thread. Why would I be so silly as to do that?

Just as I don't blame all British people for the fact that their politicians at the time didn't have the gokones to stand up to Kissinger and intervene when Turkey invaded.

Just as I don't blame all Turkish people for the dastardly deeds their military committed in Cyprus and still commits to this day. That would be unfair.

It's good if Greece sincerely regrets the junta's actions. I wish they, Britain and Turkey would get together and collectively apologise to the Cypriot people. And compensate the people too.

There is absolutely nothing the Greek people could do. Some Greeks resisted the Junta as much as possible, but the people were living in fear, as the Junta was very ruthless, and many people were arrested and incarcerated as political dissidents, some never to be seen again.

As for Britain and Turkey, I don't think you will ever get an apology from them.

I don't have the book. It would be great if you could reproduce just one or two passages which can prove he orchestrated the coup. (I have already reproduced a testimony of Kissinger's in this thread in which he denies he did).

These memoirs would surely have been referred to by Dr Andreas Constandinos, a UK Cypriot who has done a PhD on the matter, who researched the coup for three years and whose recent presentation at the London School of Economics really is worth watching.

He apologises profusely but, try as he might (and I believe he really did try) he could find no evidence of a grand US conspiracy in relation to the coup.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =firefox-a

Anyway, I concede that, even if Kissinger didn't directly orchestrate the coup, his actions and inactions during and afterwards certainly enabled Turkey to do what she did so let's just leave it there.

Kissinger provided assurances to the Junta that Turkey would not intervene, and also gave the direct go ahead for the first and second "intervention".

There is also much more than that. Australia itself was informed of the invasion before it actually occurred because Britain had asked Australia to deploy its SAS until the Gurkhas were mobilized and deployed.

I know he was a puppet of the junta but it is a personal testimony and is evidence that he himself was not (knowingly) a CIA agent. It also proves that he was motivated by rabid Greek nationalism.

I can't comment on whether he was a puppet of the Junta. because he was not held in high esteem in any case. He was the only one who accepted the role as "President". What I do believe is that he was not a puppet of the CIA. So that part of his testimony may be true.

I don't slam Greece. I slam the junta which was then ruling Greece.

Good!

But feel free to slam the US for its extensive involvement as well, but never lose sight of the fact that it is Turkey that has always been the culprit since 74.

I have read that book. Conspiracy theory books always tend to sell well. People love conspiracies. I remember reading it and being shocked. Britain and America's role in Cyprus was nefarious no doubt. But, having watched Dr Constandinos, I am unconvinced that the coup itself was orchestrated by Kissinger.

There were certainly US plans to divide Cyprus between Greece and Turkey, but these were drawn up in the 1960s, under the Johnson administration, when Makarios was an unknown quantity. Things had changed by the 70s.

I could also write a thesis totally absolving America of any blame whatsoever, because you could easily argue that America played no role as President Nixon was tied up with the Watergate Scandal. Unfortunately, this is inaccurate and there is clear evidence within Kissinger's memoirs that he directly gave Turkey permission to invade Cyprus even though he assured Greece that Turkey would not intervene.

Christ man, just post me a relevant passage or two, if you must, to convince me. Alternatively watch the film and tell me where Dr Constandinos has got it wrong.

The Kissinger memoirs have a lot of information and there are approximately 100 pages dedicated to the subject, including 1 whole chapter. I don't have the time to scan the whole book and pick and choose what is relevant to our discussion. This will take too much time. It really is up to you, and whether you want to learn something new about Cyprus instead of taking a young academics views as gospel, because at the end of the day, I don't think you can question the book's credibility like you did with The Cyprus Conspiracy.

I've got a problem with the term nationalist. Maybe because in the UK the British Nationalist Party (BNP) is extreme right-wing. But, if by nationalist you mean patriot, then fine. We need more of them for Cyprus.

The BNP give nationalists a bad name. We give nationalists a bad name when we associate them with the Junta and Coup.

Nationalists are not bad people at all. We need more of them, because you can't question their allegiances.

There is a fine line between Patriotism and Nationalism, and right now Cyprus is in desperate need of nationalists, as opposed to Patriots. But of course, Patriots are also good, it is just that nationalists are required as the country is in survival mode against a barbaric invader.

[Paphitis]

Here is an interesting conversation between Ecevit and Kissinger:

Ecevit: We have a problem. We doubt the reliability of Greece. Ioannides's word of honor is a joke. We have figured out what the joke is behind his words. He said we could fire on any ships bearing Greek flags. His ships are drawing Turkish flags!

Kissinger: Well, no one can blame you if you sink your own ships.

Ecevit: No, Dr. Kissinger, they are not our own ships. They are Greek ships. They are Greek ships drawing Turkish flags.

Kissinger: Yes, Mr. Prime Minister, but you can sink them if they are not your ships but are flying Turkish flags.

Ecevit: They are using 2 tricks. We are NATO allies and the Turkish Pilots know our codes. They speak Turkish. They call our pilots in Turkish using our code words. We can no longer rely on the words of Greece.

Kissinger: What exactly is it that you want? I know you are an intelligent man - I know that from the days of Harvard. With all due respect, I cannot take this. This can go on for six weeks on this basis.

Ecevit: They say they want an armistice. It has become obvious that they want to exploit the cease-fire for massing troops on the island. The Greeks must cease these methods.

Kissinger: What methods should they cease?

Ecevit: They say they are ready for a cease-fire. They have already shown us the tricks they will use to violate the cease-fire.

Kissinger: Are you telling me you will not accept a cease-fire?

Ecevit: We will accept a cease-fire.

Kissinger: Today?

Ecevit: We are in the middle of discussing the problem now.

The Kissinger Memoirs Pages 221-222.

A few hours after that conversation, the Turkish Destroyer Kocatepe was sunk by the TAF.....