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outsider's opinion

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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby Oracle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:35 pm

non-cypriot wrote:Yes i have, and i think that the plan had the potential to make things even worse. The plan was being emended just 24 hours before the voting took place. it seemed to me wrong in so many ways but mainly because it gave the Turks the right to have troops stationed and intervene militarily, not to mention constitutional rights. as i said on my previous posts, i'm of the opinion that if there is going to be a plan that works, it can only evolve Cypriots meaning that all turks must go unconditionally. And maybe, just maybe with the Turks gone the air would clear and both communities could once again live together in peace... that is if both sides could find the strength to bury all the hate and bad blood.


Any hate is only there because of the prevailing injustice. The injustice of the TCs holding goods which do not belong to them not only affects the GCs negatively but, also, the TCs cannot grow spiritually and morally whilst they hold a poison chalice ...

Welcome "non-cypriot" ...
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby YFred » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:04 pm

Oracle wrote:
non-cypriot wrote:Yes i have, and i think that the plan had the potential to make things even worse. The plan was being emended just 24 hours before the voting took place. it seemed to me wrong in so many ways but mainly because it gave the Turks the right to have troops stationed and intervene militarily, not to mention constitutional rights. as i said on my previous posts, i'm of the opinion that if there is going to be a plan that works, it can only evolve Cypriots meaning that all turks must go unconditionally. And maybe, just maybe with the Turks gone the air would clear and both communities could once again live together in peace... that is if both sides could find the strength to bury all the hate and bad blood.


Any hate is only there because of the prevailing injustice. The injustice of the TCs holding goods which do not belong to them not only affects the GCs negatively but, also, the TCs cannot grow spiritually and morally whilst they hold a poison chalice ...

Welcome "non-cypriot" ...

Needless to say 63, 67 and the TC land grabbing by the GCs had nothing to do with anything.
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby non-cypriot » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:02 pm

Kuruovali wrote:
non-cypriot wrote:Dear non- cypriot,

Yes, you are right peace will benefit both sides. With peace the TC kids will be able to grow up with hope rather then despair. With peace most GC's (most) will get back their properties or compensation. In 2004 the UN put forth their plan (backed by the EU) aimed at resolving the Cyprus dispute. Have you read about this plan?

K

Yes i have, and i think that the plan had the potential to make things even worse. The plan was being emended just 24 hours before the voting took place. it seemed to me wrong in so many ways but mainly because it gave the Turks the right to have troops stationed and intervene militarily, not to mention constitutional rights. as i said on my previous posts, i'm of the opinion that if there is going to be a plan that works, it can only evolve Cypriots meaning that all turks must go unconditionally. And maybe, just maybe with the Turks gone the air would clear and ... that is if both sides could find the strength to bury all the hate and bad blood.


"both communities could once again live together in peace"

Coming out with the comment above it is so evident that you know very little about the history of Cyprus. If your statement was true then i doubt that we would be in the position that we currently are.
You are falling into the same trap that a lot of outsiders do and that is to fall for the simple line that somehow all of our problems began in 1974 when one day Turkey woke up with an erection and decided to invade little Cyprus. This is the line that the GC's have stuck with ever since 1974 and continue to do so because it suits them not to talk about the events pre 74.

I suggest you do some thorough research and speak especially to the generation who experienced daily life in Cyprus pre 74.

The Turkish troops as i've said before they will go if and when a settlement is found and not before. As for the settlers some will go but then we also need to ask the same question about those who have settled in the south which including the Russians and Greeks from Anatolia and other parts of the middle east and Greek islands probably outnumber the Turkish Cypriots. So let's not forget about their settlers because legal or not in my opinion it is the GC's attempt at changing the demographics of the island in their favour. This is why for us the whole settler issue is a bit of a red hearing. You need to understand this.

K

I have read allot about the pre 1974 events and have spoken to the people that experienced them. For instance, a few months ago i drove my future Tc father in law that is in his 70,s to visit his Gc best friend also in his 70,s to drop off some olive oil that he bought back from Cyprus. Both these men experienced fist hand the unfortunate events pre 1974. I understand that both communities did live quietly side by side before troubles started and once again it was foreigns who fueled up things, at that stage the British. One example is that when Gc's started revolting against colonial forces, the British created an all Tc police force to fight Gc rebels and that is clearly putting 2 communities at war with each other. Then again it is the past and as relevant as it might be be, it appears clear to me that there is no chance of you all achieving peace and unification if its not put aside.
As for the settlers, the 1949 article 49 section III of the Geneva convention clearly states that an occupying power can not transfer parts of its own civilization onto the lands they occupy. Also the the presence of the the settlers would be an obstacle to a peace process evan though i do feel for the people that would have to leave after living in the land for 30 odd years, but i see them as victims of circumstances and in this case Cypriots come first.
However K, as i said in the beginning I'm opened to be educated. Do you not foresee A Cyprus peacefully ran by Cypriots only as one sovereign state? There has to be a glimpse of hope somewhere. I come from a peaceful country but i did serve 2 years in Kosovo and saw 2 ethnic groups once good neighbors and friends at each others necks and one lesson i did learn and that is that the people on the ground are all good. it the ones with power that corrupt them by using them as instruments to achieve their means...
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby non-cypriot » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:07 pm

Welcome "non-cypriot"

Thanks Oracle
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby YFred » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:23 pm

non-cypriot wrote:Welcome "non-cypriot"

Thanks Oracle

Welcome to the forum non-cypriot, however be aware of greeks baring gifts. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Particularly the slithering kind.
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby EPSILON » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:59 pm

non-cypriot wrote:
Kuruovali wrote:
non-cypriot wrote:Dear non- cypriot,

Yes, you are right peace will benefit both sides. With peace the TC kids will be able to grow up with hope rather then despair. With peace most GC's (most) will get back their properties or compensation. In 2004 the UN put forth their plan (backed by the EU) aimed at resolving the Cyprus dispute. Have you read about this plan?

K

Yes i have, and i think that the plan had the potential to make things even worse. The plan was being emended just 24 hours before the voting took place. it seemed to me wrong in so many ways but mainly because it gave the Turks the right to have troops stationed and intervene militarily, not to mention constitutional rights. as i said on my previous posts, i'm of the opinion that if there is going to be a plan that works, it can only evolve Cypriots meaning that all turks must go unconditionally. And maybe, just maybe with the Turks gone the air would clear and ... that is if both sides could find the strength to bury all the hate and bad blood.


"both communities could once again live together in peace"

Coming out with the comment above it is so evident that you know very little about the history of Cyprus. If your statement was true then i doubt that we would be in the position that we currently are.
You are falling into the same trap that a lot of outsiders do and that is to fall for the simple line that somehow all of our problems began in 1974 when one day Turkey woke up with an erection and decided to invade little Cyprus. This is the line that the GC's have stuck with ever since 1974 and continue to do so because it suits them not to talk about the events pre 74.

I suggest you do some thorough research and speak especially to the generation who experienced daily life in Cyprus pre 74.

The Turkish troops as i've said before they will go if and when a settlement is found and not before. As for the settlers some will go but then we also need to ask the same question about those who have settled in the south which including the Russians and Greeks from Anatolia and other parts of the middle east and Greek islands probably outnumber the Turkish Cypriots. So let's not forget about their settlers because legal or not in my opinion it is the GC's attempt at changing the demographics of the island in their favour. This is why for us the whole settler issue is a bit of a red hearing. You need to understand this.

K

I have read allot about the pre 1974 events and have spoken to the people that experienced them. For instance, a few months ago i drove my future Tc father in law that is in his 70,s to visit his Gc best friend also in his 70,s to drop off some olive oil that he bought back from Cyprus. Both these men experienced fist hand the unfortunate events pre 1974. I understand that both communities did live quietly side by side before troubles started and once again it was foreigns who fueled up things, at that stage the British. One example is that when Gc's started revolting against colonial forces, the British created an all Tc police force to fight Gc rebels and that is clearly putting 2 communities at war with each other. Then again it is the past and as relevant as it might be be, it appears clear to me that there is no chance of you all achieving peace and unification if its not put aside.
As for the settlers, the 1949 article 49 section III of the Geneva convention clearly states that an occupying power can not transfer parts of its own civilization onto the lands they occupy. Also the the presence of the the settlers would be an obstacle to a peace process evan though i do feel for the people that would have to leave after living in the land for 30 odd years, but i see them as victims of circumstances and in this case Cypriots come first.
However K, as i said in the beginning I'm opened to be educated. Do you not foresee A Cyprus peacefully ran by Cypriots only as one sovereign state? There has to be a glimpse of hope somewhere. I come from a peaceful country but i did serve 2 years in Kosovo and saw 2 ethnic groups once good neighbors and friends at each others necks and one lesson i did learn and that is that the people on the ground are all good. it the ones with power that corrupt them by using them as instruments to achieve their means...


Firstly, welcome on board.

secondly , personally i believe that Cyprus problem itself is not so complecated- Politicians are making the problem so difficult


The real case is simple as follows

We have an Island with two main Ethnicities: Greeks and Turks.
fair solution: One strong central government - no military forces at all- citizens safety gurantee by NATO small force power( Turkey/Greece may be excluded) / 1 vote= 1 citizen.

Above is a fair/ democratic and workable solutions.

All others are smokes covering other countries interests.
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby non-cypriot » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:41 pm

YFred wrote:
non-cypriot wrote:Welcome "non-cypriot"

Thanks Oracle

Welcome to the forum non-cypriot, however be aware of greeks baring gifts. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Particularly the slithering kind.

Thaks yFred.
If the gifts are some nice olives (the green big ones that are smashed with rocks) and proper goat cheese then i don't care who bears them... :D
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby non-cypriot » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:52 pm

EPSILON wrote:
non-cypriot wrote:
Kuruovali wrote:
non-cypriot wrote:Dear non- cypriot,

Yes, you are right peace will benefit both sides. With peace the TC kids will be able to grow up with hope rather then despair. With peace most GC's (most) will get back their properties or compensation. In 2004 the UN put forth their plan (backed by the EU) aimed at resolving the Cyprus dispute. Have you read about this plan?

K

Yes i have, and i think that the plan had the potential to make things even worse. The plan was being emended just 24 hours before the voting took place. it seemed to me wrong in so many ways but mainly because it gave the Turks the right to have troops stationed and intervene militarily, not to mention constitutional rights. as i said on my previous posts, i'm of the opinion that if there is going to be a plan that works, it can only evolve Cypriots meaning that all turks must go unconditionally. And maybe, just maybe with the Turks gone the air would clear and ... that is if both sides could find the strength to bury all the hate and bad blood.


"both communities could once again live together in peace"

Coming out with the comment above it is so evident that you know very little about the history of Cyprus. If your statement was true then i doubt that we would be in the position that we currently are.
You are falling into the same trap that a lot of outsiders do and that is to fall for the simple line that somehow all of our problems began in 1974 when one day Turkey woke up with an erection and decided to invade little Cyprus. This is the line that the GC's have stuck with ever since 1974 and continue to do so because it suits them not to talk about the events pre 74.

I suggest you do some thorough research and speak especially to the generation who experienced daily life in Cyprus pre 74.

The Turkish troops as i've said before they will go if and when a settlement is found and not before. As for the settlers some will go but then we also need to ask the same question about those who have settled in the south which including the Russians and Greeks from Anatolia and other parts of the middle east and Greek islands probably outnumber the Turkish Cypriots. So let's not forget about their settlers because legal or not in my opinion it is the GC's attempt at changing the demographics of the island in their favour. This is why for us the whole settler issue is a bit of a red hearing. You need to understand this.

K

I have read allot about the pre 1974 events and have spoken to the people that experienced them. For instance, a few months ago i drove my future Tc father in law that is in his 70,s to visit his Gc best friend also in his 70,s to drop off some olive oil that he bought back from Cyprus. Both these men experienced fist hand the unfortunate events pre 1974. I understand that both communities did live quietly side by side before troubles started and once again it was foreigns who fueled up things, at that stage the British. One example is that when Gc's started revolting against colonial forces, the British created an all Tc police force to fight Gc rebels and that is clearly putting 2 communities at war with each other. Then again it is the past and as relevant as it might be be, it appears clear to me that there is no chance of you all achieving peace and unification if its not put aside.
As for the settlers, the 1949 article 49 section III of the Geneva convention clearly states that an occupying power can not transfer parts of its own civilization onto the lands they occupy. Also the the presence of the the settlers would be an obstacle to a peace process evan though i do feel for the people that would have to leave after living in the land for 30 odd years, but i see them as victims of circumstances and in this case Cypriots come first.
However K, as i said in the beginning I'm opened to be educated. Do you not foresee A Cyprus peacefully ran by Cypriots only as one sovereign state? There has to be a glimpse of hope somewhere. I come from a peaceful country but i did serve 2 years in Kosovo and saw 2 ethnic groups once good neighbors and friends at each others necks and one lesson i did learn and that is that the people on the ground are all good. it the ones with power that corrupt them by using them as instruments to achieve their means...


Firstly, welcome on board.

secondly , personally i believe that Cyprus problem itself is not so complecated- Politicians are making the problem so difficult


The real case is simple as follows

We have an Island with two main Ethnicities: Greeks and Turks.
fair solution: One strong central government - no military forces at all- citizens safety gurantee by NATO small force power( Turkey/Greece may be excluded) / 1 vote= 1 citizen.

Above is a fair/ democratic and workable solutions.

All others are smokes covering other countries interests.

Thanks Epsilon
And a strong sense of cypriot identity flourishing amongst all creating union regardless the ethnic group one belongs to... It sounds like an utopia under the current circumstances, but i think not impossible.
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Postby bill cobbett » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:33 pm

non-cypriot wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:Welcome to the Forum non-CY.

Yeah, I'd go along with what you say mate/matess.

Things become very different when the Turkish Occupation ends.

Thanks bill.
Its mate.


Sexist!/sexitess! :D
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Re: outsider's opinion

Postby Oracle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:33 pm

YFred wrote:
Oracle wrote:
non-cypriot wrote:Yes i have, and i think that the plan had the potential to make things even worse. The plan was being emended just 24 hours before the voting took place. it seemed to me wrong in so many ways but mainly because it gave the Turks the right to have troops stationed and intervene militarily, not to mention constitutional rights. as i said on my previous posts, i'm of the opinion that if there is going to be a plan that works, it can only evolve Cypriots meaning that all turks must go unconditionally. And maybe, just maybe with the Turks gone the air would clear and both communities could once again live together in peace... that is if both sides could find the strength to bury all the hate and bad blood.


Any hate is only there because of the prevailing injustice. The injustice of the TCs holding goods which do not belong to them not only affects the GCs negatively but, also, the TCs cannot grow spiritually and morally whilst they hold a poison chalice ...

Welcome "non-cypriot" ...

Needless to say 63, 67 and the TC land grabbing by the GCs had nothing to do with anything.


Ditto 1571, in that case! ....
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