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Turkey - can ever be a normal democratic country?

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Re: Turkey - can ever be a normal democratic country?

Postby Oracle » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:11 am

Get Real! wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Woman, I don’t know what the hell you’re waffling on about…

At the end of the day there’s nothing you or anyone else can possibly say to justify this…

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus24484.html

…and that’s all that matters.


You are a lost cause ....

.... just like the TCs.

I never lose sight of an issue Oracle, no matter how hard you try to cloud things... :lol:


No GR! ... You never allow the nebulous "logic" to lift, and reveal reality, even when confronted with reason ...

You are obstinate and that is all!

Goodnight, you wear me out with frustration .....

(P.S. .... go and respond to your friend's sensible thread, if you dare :wink: )
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Re: Turkey - can ever be a normal democratic country?

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:44 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Both Turkey & Greece are Human Rights abusers period!

So quit making fools of your selves with double standards all the time by only pointing the finger at Turkey, because there’s no such thing as “good” HR abuses!


If you ever manage to get both halves of your brain communicating with each other, you may find life is a colourful, rational world of relativity. Rather more complex than what you seem to be exhibiting, which is some simple computer programme that fails to demonstrate intelligence in discerning gradations .....

I had no idea international law was subject to relativity… :?

:lol:


There you go again! :roll: Half a brain engaged!

Since all countries have some Human Rights abuses, it stands to reason that some countries are relatively better observers of laws than others.

And, some forms of abuse are worse than others! Keeping a few illegal immigrants waiting for a month without extradition dates ranks pretty low compared to selling girls to Arabs, for example!

But, I know you can think all this out for yourself; you just seem to have endless energy to burn these days just to have people state the bleeding obvious to you as though you had regressed to some childhood state .... :roll:

If international law is subject to relativity thereby making all these Greek issues insignificant…

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus24484.html

…then good luck convincing the world of Turkish HR abuses on Cyprus!

It seems that shooting ourselves in the foot has become our favorite pastime… :?


Stop trying to wiggle out of what is REALLY under discussion ... or I shall seriously doubt your capacity to act in context.

You, out of the blue, brought up the idea of:... “good” HR abuses ... which begs the qualifier that none would be "good" if they were also "abuses".

However, that crimes take on a relative criminality goes without saying since upon judgement, punishments are dished out accordingly. That is to say; "punishment fits the crime", if only by "time".

So, though an Embassy may issue strong warnings against travelling to Country X with drugs, for personal use, because torture followed by beheading may interfere with your freedom of expression; it is less likely to issue that same warning if travelling to Country Y if the worst that country does (according to its Human Rights abuses web-link), is have you hanging around for 24 hours in decrepit prison conditions ...

But, less important than any of that - because they should not need spelling out to anyone - is your worrying condition, of "missing the point". :roll:

If international law is ambiguous like you're foolishly suggesting, then who decides if they’re “valid” or “invalid” HR abuses… the Greeks?

Move along Oracle and quit stabbing Cyprus in the heart all the time...


Only the UN can decide which countries are abusing International Human Rights Laws.

It is the UN which established the International Bill of Human Rights, and as such, only the UN is able to offer unbiased judgments against any particular country. Otherwise these laws on alleged HR abuses are open to misinterpretation.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInt ... alLaw.aspx

Therefore, it stands to reason that MOST of your HR sources are junk links without proper UN approval or arbitration to the alleged crimes, since it is the UN that is suppose to uphold international law in accordance with the UN International Bill of Rights and not Amnesty International which just makes it up as it goes along. :roll:
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Re: Turkey - can ever be a normal democratic country?

Postby shahmaran » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:37 pm

EPSILON wrote:
akiner wrote:
EPSILON wrote:Turkey and its army

Restive colonels and generals
Jun 18th 2009 | ISTANBUL
From The Economist print edition

New evidence of old anti-government conspiracies within the army


OLD habits die hard. No institution in Turkey lives up to that adage more than its meddlesome army, which is embroiled in yet another row with the ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party. The latest mischief-making concerns an alleged plan that was hatched last April to overthrow AK and to incriminate Turkey’s largest and most influential Islamic brotherhood, led by a moderate preacher called Fetullah Gulen.

A copy of the “Plan to Combat Islamic Fundamentalism” was published by Taraf, a liberal daily newspaper, on June 12th. It promptly sparked a political storm that has left the army on the defensive. Signed by Dursun Cicek, a colonel serving in the army’s psychological warfare unit, the plan calls for “mobilising agents” within AK to discredit the party through their actions and words. Worse, it speaks of planting weapons in the homes of members of Mr Gulen’s movement, with a view to demonstrating that they are “terrorists” with links to separatist Kurdish PKK rebels.

Another aim of the plan was apparently to use the media to galvanise nationalist support against Armenia and Greece. And the authors also wanted to clear the names of officers who are being prosecuted for past coup plots against AK as part of the so-called Ergenekon conspiracy.

Skulduggery of this kind is not exactly new in Turkey. The army, which has seized power three times directly, used similar tactics to unseat the country’s first Islamist-led government in 1997. In 2004 a group of generals cooked up various schemes to overthrow AK on the grounds that it was seeking to introduce religious rule. Yet for once the government is fighting back. It has laid a formal complaint with public prosecutors, calling for a full criminal investigation into an attempted coup. Colonel Cicek, who protests his innocence, has been called to testify before prosecutors dealing with the Ergenekon case. “If the allegations are true, the situation is dire,” declared Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, after a 70-minute meeting with Ilker Basbug, the chief of the general staff.

Reuters

Basbug and Erdogan, sailing into the sun
The general denies all knowledge of the affair, but he has promised to punish any of his men who are guilty. The general staff has launched its own investigation. But army prosecutors have rushed to declare that there is no evidence that the plan was devised at its headquarters, even if they could not refute its existence. “This statement has only reinforced suspicions,” sneered Bekir Bozdag, an AK whip.

If the plot was really conceived without General Basbug’s knowledge, it was probably the act of a group of renegade officers within the army. This theory was buttressed by a recently retired general, who told Taraf that he knew of “five or six people” who were bent on unseating AK, adding that he had warned General Basbug of their plans. Another less likely story is that the police, heavily penetrated by Gulenists, forged the document to embarrass the army.

Certainly there is little trust between the army, the government and the security services. Many hope the affair will give Mr Basbug a chance to prove his democratic credentials and root out rogue elements once and for all. Yet the signs are not encouraging. Colonel Cicek has not been suspended during the inquiry. And army prosecutors have slapped a legally dubious ban on any coverage of it.

The onus is now on Mr Erdogan to insist to the generals that they must take orders from him and not the other way round. His meeting with General Basbug suggests that he may be more interested in cutting deals. That is what he supposedly did with the general’s predecessor, Yasar Buyukanit, who had issued a statement on the internet in April 2007 threatening to seize power. Soon afterwards Mr Erdogan met General Buyukanit for two hours. Both vowed secrecy, prompting speculation of a truce.

This new scandal suggests that, no matter how many conspiracies it survives, AK will remain a target of those who resent its encroachment on their traditional bastions of power. Ominously, the prosecutor who launched the court closure case against AK in 2008 has now made the bizarre complaint that the government is focusing “too much on economic growth” at the expense of secularism. He has also spoken against proposed constitutional changes that would make it more difficult to ban political parties. Mr Erdogan needs to stick to his guns and push through these changes. The best response to an attack on democracy is more democracy.


She has already, and like every good standing democracy she has the nerve to protect its system... And because she has the democracy the military Colonel will be put on trail in civil courts if the document that have mentioned is real regarding to decision of the civil public prosecutor.

Ps: Should i make it bold letters for the word of "civil" above. I did not because it might be an insult for your high level of Greek"we invented the World" intelligence...

Copy/pasting for tihs one will not make your day my dear, maybe you should paste something about Muftus of the Turks in Greece for the sake of democracy and human rights :wink:


Saria or you are calling it is not a democratic position. Muftus will be ellected by peole very soon in Greece but Saria will never be accepted to be establshed since all citizens of a state must be under only one law this of the state. We are not here fascists country you know and this "saria" was the reason for this delay in this certain issue.

And make me a favor do not compare a European country like Greece with cases such Turkey which -exempt some surface progress in West is still operating with the law of mid 1500. They are still killing their wifes in certain area and justice consider this as their right. Maybe Attaturk put you in costums but it seems that he did not suceed to change (to the majority at least) their way of thinking and behaving

be ensure that we are very open minded and we know exactly what we are speaking about-we do not make our opionions because of any propaganta or other surces but of actual experience of this famous country, which's history is full only of destructions and killings.

We, all here in this side of Europe, always prefer to have a real democracy in Turkey since this will be also for our benefit but to succeed this the Turks themselves must understand the problems of their system.

You, people, prefer to support your generals since you consider that they dafeguard you against of saria application and you ask Greece to accept saria law. This is at least rediculus!!!


Actually Epsilon, for your information, once Ataturk established the Republic of Turkey all its laws were recreated by taking several European countries as models. Models such as Swiss, French, German and Austrian systems were used. How well they are executed today is a whole different matter of course.

Also there are around 80 Sharia courts just in the UK who provide services for the people who want to live under such shitty laws. I read about it while ago.

Greece is meant to be an EU country but it seems not to be the case for the Turks living there...

I don't know what you will make of all this but you sure need to re-evaluate what you know about Turkey and its democracy because you are pretty well distant from reality.
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Re: Turkey - can ever be a normal democratic country?

Postby EPSILON » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:02 pm

shahmaran wrote:
EPSILON wrote:
akiner wrote:
EPSILON wrote:Turkey and its army

Restive colonels and generals
Jun 18th 2009 | ISTANBUL
From The Economist print edition

New evidence of old anti-government conspiracies within the army


OLD habits die hard. No institution in Turkey lives up to that adage more than its meddlesome army, which is embroiled in yet another row with the ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party. The latest mischief-making concerns an alleged plan that was hatched last April to overthrow AK and to incriminate Turkey’s largest and most influential Islamic brotherhood, led by a moderate preacher called Fetullah Gulen.

A copy of the “Plan to Combat Islamic Fundamentalism” was published by Taraf, a liberal daily newspaper, on June 12th. It promptly sparked a political storm that has left the army on the defensive. Signed by Dursun Cicek, a colonel serving in the army’s psychological warfare unit, the plan calls for “mobilising agents” within AK to discredit the party through their actions and words. Worse, it speaks of planting weapons in the homes of members of Mr Gulen’s movement, with a view to demonstrating that they are “terrorists” with links to separatist Kurdish PKK rebels.

Another aim of the plan was apparently to use the media to galvanise nationalist support against Armenia and Greece. And the authors also wanted to clear the names of officers who are being prosecuted for past coup plots against AK as part of the so-called Ergenekon conspiracy.

Skulduggery of this kind is not exactly new in Turkey. The army, which has seized power three times directly, used similar tactics to unseat the country’s first Islamist-led government in 1997. In 2004 a group of generals cooked up various schemes to overthrow AK on the grounds that it was seeking to introduce religious rule. Yet for once the government is fighting back. It has laid a formal complaint with public prosecutors, calling for a full criminal investigation into an attempted coup. Colonel Cicek, who protests his innocence, has been called to testify before prosecutors dealing with the Ergenekon case. “If the allegations are true, the situation is dire,” declared Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, after a 70-minute meeting with Ilker Basbug, the chief of the general staff.

Reuters

Basbug and Erdogan, sailing into the sun
The general denies all knowledge of the affair, but he has promised to punish any of his men who are guilty. The general staff has launched its own investigation. But army prosecutors have rushed to declare that there is no evidence that the plan was devised at its headquarters, even if they could not refute its existence. “This statement has only reinforced suspicions,” sneered Bekir Bozdag, an AK whip.

If the plot was really conceived without General Basbug’s knowledge, it was probably the act of a group of renegade officers within the army. This theory was buttressed by a recently retired general, who told Taraf that he knew of “five or six people” who were bent on unseating AK, adding that he had warned General Basbug of their plans. Another less likely story is that the police, heavily penetrated by Gulenists, forged the document to embarrass the army.

Certainly there is little trust between the army, the government and the security services. Many hope the affair will give Mr Basbug a chance to prove his democratic credentials and root out rogue elements once and for all. Yet the signs are not encouraging. Colonel Cicek has not been suspended during the inquiry. And army prosecutors have slapped a legally dubious ban on any coverage of it.

The onus is now on Mr Erdogan to insist to the generals that they must take orders from him and not the other way round. His meeting with General Basbug suggests that he may be more interested in cutting deals. That is what he supposedly did with the general’s predecessor, Yasar Buyukanit, who had issued a statement on the internet in April 2007 threatening to seize power. Soon afterwards Mr Erdogan met General Buyukanit for two hours. Both vowed secrecy, prompting speculation of a truce.

This new scandal suggests that, no matter how many conspiracies it survives, AK will remain a target of those who resent its encroachment on their traditional bastions of power. Ominously, the prosecutor who launched the court closure case against AK in 2008 has now made the bizarre complaint that the government is focusing “too much on economic growth” at the expense of secularism. He has also spoken against proposed constitutional changes that would make it more difficult to ban political parties. Mr Erdogan needs to stick to his guns and push through these changes. The best response to an attack on democracy is more democracy.


She has already, and like every good standing democracy she has the nerve to protect its system... And because she has the democracy the military Colonel will be put on trail in civil courts if the document that have mentioned is real regarding to decision of the civil public prosecutor.

Ps: Should i make it bold letters for the word of "civil" above. I did not because it might be an insult for your high level of Greek"we invented the World" intelligence...

Copy/pasting for tihs one will not make your day my dear, maybe you should paste something about Muftus of the Turks in Greece for the sake of democracy and human rights :wink:


Saria or you are calling it is not a democratic position. Muftus will be ellected by peole very soon in Greece but Saria will never be accepted to be establshed since all citizens of a state must be under only one law this of the state. We are not here fascists country you know and this "saria" was the reason for this delay in this certain issue.

And make me a favor do not compare a European country like Greece with cases such Turkey which -exempt some surface progress in West is still operating with the law of mid 1500. They are still killing their wifes in certain area and justice consider this as their right. Maybe Attaturk put you in costums but it seems that he did not suceed to change (to the majority at least) their way of thinking and behaving

be ensure that we are very open minded and we know exactly what we are speaking about-we do not make our opionions because of any propaganta or other surces but of actual experience of this famous country, which's history is full only of destructions and killings.

We, all here in this side of Europe, always prefer to have a real democracy in Turkey since this will be also for our benefit but to succeed this the Turks themselves must understand the problems of their system.

You, people, prefer to support your generals since you consider that they dafeguard you against of saria application and you ask Greece to accept saria law. This is at least rediculus!!!


Actually Epsilon, for your information, once Ataturk established the Republic of Turkey all its laws were recreated by taking several European countries as models. Models such as Swiss, French, German and Austrian systems were used. How well they are executed today is a whole different matter of course.

Also there are around 80 Sharia courts just in the UK who provide services for the people who want to live under such shitty laws. I read about it while ago.

Greece is meant to be an EU country but it seems not to be the case for the Turks living there...

I don't know what you will make of all this but you sure need to re-evaluate what you know about Turkey and its democracy because you are pretty well distant from reality.


Me to evaluate what i know about Turkey?!!!!good joke believe me.Sharia courts replacing state's court in cases out of religion or which refer to criminal ctions? In Europe? Only in Anatolia my friend and here is Greece not Anatolia not even ISTANBUL!!!REGARDING ATTATURK, YOU ARE STATING EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING BUT, YOU KNOW, SOME TIMES COPYING CULTURES is very difficult to transfer same to your own population.Attaturk did his best by force and by verbal guides but many millions in Turkey are still away of what Attaturk was saying.
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Postby EPSILON » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:11 pm

Reforms in Turkey

Marching along
Jul 2nd 2009 | ANKARA
From The Economist print edition

Tension between the army and the government may promote reforms

APCOULD it be Turkish democracy’s great leap forward? On June 26th Turkey’s parliament, dominated by the Justice and Development (AK) Party, passed a groundbreaking law allowing civilian courts to prosecute army officials. Four days later a civilian prosecutor charged and briefly arrested a serving colonel for his alleged involvement in a plan to overthrow AK.

Colonel Dogan Cicek is at the centre of an alleged conspiracy that has rocked the political establishment since it was exposed by a Turkish newspaper last month. The army has ordered an investigation. But it has just as promptly declared the colonel to be innocent and the document, entitled “The Plan to Combat Islamic Fundamentalism”, a fake. In the old days, the army’s growls would have cowed the civilians into silence. But contrary to speculation that he would retreat, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, appears this time to be holding his ground.

So is General Ilker Basbug, the chief of the general staff. He is said to be pressing the government to reconsider the bill that will allow coup plotters to be tried in civilian courts. He made his views known during a day-long meeting of the National Security Council on June 30th. The main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) also wants the constitutional court to strike the law down, saying it violates other provisions of the constitution. Never mind that CHP deputies voted in favour of it: they claim they were “tricked” into doing so by AK. All eyes will now turn to Abdullah Gul, Turkey’s president, who could send the constitutional amendment back to parliament on the grounds cited by the CHP. “If he does so, his credibility will suffer an enormous blow,” argues Taha Ozhan, who runs SETA, a liberal think-tank in Ankara. “This [bill] constitutes the biggest challenge of this [two-year-old] presidency,” he adds.

It is also the biggest challenge to the army’s immunity. Ever since catapulting into government seven years ago, AK has been chipping away at the generals’ power. The National Security Council, through which the generals often dictated foreign and domestic policy, has been downgraded to an advisory role. A string of abortive coup plans leaked to the media and crude attempts to block Mr Gul’s elevation to the presidency have dented the army’s image and bolstered that of AK.

The latest coup talk may have galvanised Mr Erdogan into a fresh burst of reformist zeal. The government is talking of reopening a Greek Orthodox seminary on the island of Halki off Istanbul, a long-running demand of the European Union. Mr Erdogan also says that talks with the IMF for a new standby deal will resume soon. This helped the Istanbul stockmarket to recover this week, despite the news that gdp had shrunk by a whopping 13.8% in the year to the first quarter of 2009.

Turkey’s secular elite, which has often seen the army as the sole guarantee of a freewheeling lifestyle inspired by Ataturk, is understandably nervous. Many fear that AK’s real mission is not to democratise Turkey but to convert it to Islamic rule. They might take heart from a parade in Istanbul’s main square on June 28th to mark international gay pride day. Girls in tightly wound Islamic headscarves took turns to be photographed with scantily clad transvestites. “We have nothing against them, Allah created us all equal,” opined a bystander who identified himself as a pious Muslim. “This is the kind of freedom we long for in Iran,” sighed Ali Akbar, an Australian tourist of Iranian descent.

The deeper worry among Turkey’s secular elite is not about creeping Islam but over a loss of power to an encroaching class of pious bureaucrats and entrepreneurs that has become increasingly visible since Turgut Ozal, a modernising former prime minister, liberalised the economy after the generals’ third and most recent direct coup in 1980. And are the days of coups over? That the question can still be posed suggests that a risk remains of further military intervention, however small. “The generals feel cornered, and that makes them dangerous,” says a veteran military observer. That may explain why some in the government would be relieved if the constitutional court did indeed strike down their new law.
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Postby shahmaran » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:54 am

EPSILON wrote:Reforms in Turkey

Marching along
Jul 2nd 2009 | ANKARA
From The Economist print edition

Tension between the army and the government may promote reforms

APCOULD it be Turkish democracy’s great leap forward? On June 26th Turkey’s parliament, dominated by the Justice and Development (AK) Party, passed a groundbreaking law allowing civilian courts to prosecute army officials. Four days later a civilian prosecutor charged and briefly arrested a serving colonel for his alleged involvement in a plan to overthrow AK.

Colonel Dogan Cicek is at the centre of an alleged conspiracy that has rocked the political establishment since it was exposed by a Turkish newspaper last month. The army has ordered an investigation. But it has just as promptly declared the colonel to be innocent and the document, entitled “The Plan to Combat Islamic Fundamentalism”, a fake. In the old days, the army’s growls would have cowed the civilians into silence. But contrary to speculation that he would retreat, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, appears this time to be holding his ground.

So is General Ilker Basbug, the chief of the general staff. He is said to be pressing the government to reconsider the bill that will allow coup plotters to be tried in civilian courts. He made his views known during a day-long meeting of the National Security Council on June 30th. The main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) also wants the constitutional court to strike the law down, saying it violates other provisions of the constitution. Never mind that CHP deputies voted in favour of it: they claim they were “tricked” into doing so by AK. All eyes will now turn to Abdullah Gul, Turkey’s president, who could send the constitutional amendment back to parliament on the grounds cited by the CHP. “If he does so, his credibility will suffer an enormous blow,” argues Taha Ozhan, who runs SETA, a liberal think-tank in Ankara. “This [bill] constitutes the biggest challenge of this [two-year-old] presidency,” he adds.

It is also the biggest challenge to the army’s immunity. Ever since catapulting into government seven years ago, AK has been chipping away at the generals’ power. The National Security Council, through which the generals often dictated foreign and domestic policy, has been downgraded to an advisory role. A string of abortive coup plans leaked to the media and crude attempts to block Mr Gul’s elevation to the presidency have dented the army’s image and bolstered that of AK.

The latest coup talk may have galvanised Mr Erdogan into a fresh burst of reformist zeal. The government is talking of reopening a Greek Orthodox seminary on the island of Halki off Istanbul, a long-running demand of the European Union. Mr Erdogan also says that talks with the IMF for a new standby deal will resume soon. This helped the Istanbul stockmarket to recover this week, despite the news that gdp had shrunk by a whopping 13.8% in the year to the first quarter of 2009.

Turkey’s secular elite, which has often seen the army as the sole guarantee of a freewheeling lifestyle inspired by Ataturk, is understandably nervous. Many fear that AK’s real mission is not to democratise Turkey but to convert it to Islamic rule. They might take heart from a parade in Istanbul’s main square on June 28th to mark international gay pride day. Girls in tightly wound Islamic headscarves took turns to be photographed with scantily clad transvestites. “We have nothing against them, Allah created us all equal,” opined a bystander who identified himself as a pious Muslim. “This is the kind of freedom we long for in Iran,” sighed Ali Akbar, an Australian tourist of Iranian descent.

The deeper worry among Turkey’s secular elite is not about creeping Islam but over a loss of power to an encroaching class of pious bureaucrats and entrepreneurs that has become increasingly visible since Turgut Ozal, a modernising former prime minister, liberalised the economy after the generals’ third and most recent direct coup in 1980. And are the days of coups over? That the question can still be posed suggests that a risk remains of further military intervention, however small. “The generals feel cornered, and that makes them dangerous,” says a veteran military observer. That may explain why some in the government would be relieved if the constitutional court did indeed strike down their new law.


Well if you truly believe that Turkey considers people murdering their wifes as "their right" then the joke is on your side my man and I have nothing more to say to you on that matter...

However you should remember that NO idea in this world is suddenly and magically "created" by one single nation and there is nothing wrong with copying good systems from others if you are in the business of trying to establish a new country against all odds.

Also for your information, the only force Ataturk really had to use was against the Ottoman leftovers and against the partitionist Europeans, you being one of them. In Turkey the Greeks are historically and humorously known to be the obedient TOOL of the Brits and by slapping you bitches around we had indirectly beaten the British Empire which was almost unheard of during those years. So you see no one takes pride in ruining the scummy Greek army but it was all about beating your masters indirectly. That's something you should be proud of ;)

And about your little article, you seem to be following the news from far behind, I read about 5 of these papers everyday and I can assure you that there is no points to be gained from basing your assumptions over the conspiracy tales that the AKP fabricates. No one in the right mind in Turkey takes them seriously and neither should you. The backward AKP gang have a long going battle in order to take all power from the army as they happen to be the one and only real obstacle in their quest against the secularism of Turkey. If you know the country so dam well you should know that ever since the coup in the 80's the religious section of the country has gained a lot of power and have come as far as being able to challenge the army, yet the Turkish democracy still stands strong and even these arseholes are allowed to practice their backward politics. But since Greece is still happily governed by backward religious monkeys you wouldn't know a single bit about all this, would you know? Do you even know what secularism or laïcité means?
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Postby boomerang » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:37 am

Also there are around 80 Sharia courts just in the UK who provide services for the people who want to live under such shitty laws. I read about it while ago.


are you sure about this?...

I just watched "Pakistan, talibans new generation" last night and was horrified...man they are backwards...

Are you sure turkey is turning towards sharia law with the AKP?
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Postby shahmaran » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:31 am

boomerang wrote:
Also there are around 80 Sharia courts just in the UK who provide services for the people who want to live under such shitty laws. I read about it while ago.


are you sure about this?...

I just watched "Pakistan, talibans new generation" last night and was horrified...man they are backwards...

Are you sure turkey is turning towards sharia law with the AKP?


Well they can never go as far as sharia in Turkey, not unless they completely strip the army from Kemalism. Tayyip has many recordings from his early days praising the idea but he claimed to have "changed" since.

However there is a serious increase of Fettullah Gülen supporters and how deep they have managed to infiltrate amongst the nations most critical points, the army, the law, the police and the education system being some of them. These guys all work for one ideal and is another example of how democracy can fail miserably.

They were recently fueled by the US design and AKP implemented, Moderate Islam idea, however it is said that it has lost support with Obama in the picture.

Never the less Fettullah sect is very much alive and stronger than ever since the AKP has come in the picture and if they ever manage to set the conditions right for an Islamic revolution, this bastard will fly in from the States in order to be the "Humeyni" of Turkey.

Theoretically it can happen over night as it did in Iran but seems unlikely to me, of course never say never.

Sharia is pretty sickening stuff and I cannot believe a country such as Britain can even go near such an idea which is totally the opposite of everything the EU stands for in so many levels.

Here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
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Postby boomerang » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:36 am

shahmaran wrote:
boomerang wrote:
Also there are around 80 Sharia courts just in the UK who provide services for the people who want to live under such shitty laws. I read about it while ago.


are you sure about this?...

I just watched "Pakistan, talibans new generation" last night and was horrified...man they are backwards...

Are you sure turkey is turning towards sharia law with the AKP?


Well they can never go as far as sharia in Turkey, not unless they completely strip the army from Kemalism. Tayyip has many recordings from his early days praising the idea but he claimed to have "changed" since.

However there is a serious increase of Fettullah Gülen supporters and how deep they have managed to infiltrate amongst the nations most critical points, the army, the law, the police and the education system being some of them. These guys all work for one ideal and is another example of how democracy can fail miserably.

They were recently fueled by the US design and AKP implemented, Moderate Islam idea, however it is said that it has lost support with Obama in the picture.

Never the less Fettullah sect is very much alive and stronger than ever since the AKP has come in the picture and if they ever manage to set the conditions right for an Islamic revolution, this bastard will fly in from the States in order to be the "Humeyni" of Turkey.

Theoretically it can happen over night as it did in Iran but seems unlikely to me, of course never say never.

Sharia is pretty sickening stuff and I cannot believe a country such as Britain can even go near such an idea which is totally the opposite of everything the EU stands for in so many levels.

Here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece


unbeleivable...londonstan here we come....ffs how can the UK endorse such a backwards state of affairs is beyond me...

so what hope is there for a secular muslim country?...even in indonesia they do not work with sharia justice...
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Postby EPSILON » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:06 am

shahmaran wrote:
EPSILON wrote:Reforms in Turkey

Marching along
Jul 2nd 2009 | ANKARA
From The Economist print edition

Tension between the army and the government may promote reforms

APCOULD it be Turkish democracy’s great leap forward? On June 26th Turkey’s parliament, dominated by the Justice and Development (AK) Party, passed a groundbreaking law allowing civilian courts to prosecute army officials. Four days later a civilian prosecutor charged and briefly arrested a serving colonel for his alleged involvement in a plan to overthrow AK.

Colonel Dogan Cicek is at the centre of an alleged conspiracy that has rocked the political establishment since it was exposed by a Turkish newspaper last month. The army has ordered an investigation. But it has just as promptly declared the colonel to be innocent and the document, entitled “The Plan to Combat Islamic Fundamentalism”, a fake. In the old days, the army’s growls would have cowed the civilians into silence. But contrary to speculation that he would retreat, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, appears this time to be holding his ground.

So is General Ilker Basbug, the chief of the general staff. He is said to be pressing the government to reconsider the bill that will allow coup plotters to be tried in civilian courts. He made his views known during a day-long meeting of the National Security Council on June 30th. The main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) also wants the constitutional court to strike the law down, saying it violates other provisions of the constitution. Never mind that CHP deputies voted in favour of it: they claim they were “tricked” into doing so by AK. All eyes will now turn to Abdullah Gul, Turkey’s president, who could send the constitutional amendment back to parliament on the grounds cited by the CHP. “If he does so, his credibility will suffer an enormous blow,” argues Taha Ozhan, who runs SETA, a liberal think-tank in Ankara. “This [bill] constitutes the biggest challenge of this [two-year-old] presidency,” he adds.

It is also the biggest challenge to the army’s immunity. Ever since catapulting into government seven years ago, AK has been chipping away at the generals’ power. The National Security Council, through which the generals often dictated foreign and domestic policy, has been downgraded to an advisory role. A string of abortive coup plans leaked to the media and crude attempts to block Mr Gul’s elevation to the presidency have dented the army’s image and bolstered that of AK.

The latest coup talk may have galvanised Mr Erdogan into a fresh burst of reformist zeal. The government is talking of reopening a Greek Orthodox seminary on the island of Halki off Istanbul, a long-running demand of the European Union. Mr Erdogan also says that talks with the IMF for a new standby deal will resume soon. This helped the Istanbul stockmarket to recover this week, despite the news that gdp had shrunk by a whopping 13.8% in the year to the first quarter of 2009.

Turkey’s secular elite, which has often seen the army as the sole guarantee of a freewheeling lifestyle inspired by Ataturk, is understandably nervous. Many fear that AK’s real mission is not to democratise Turkey but to convert it to Islamic rule. They might take heart from a parade in Istanbul’s main square on June 28th to mark international gay pride day. Girls in tightly wound Islamic headscarves took turns to be photographed with scantily clad transvestites. “We have nothing against them, Allah created us all equal,” opined a bystander who identified himself as a pious Muslim. “This is the kind of freedom we long for in Iran,” sighed Ali Akbar, an Australian tourist of Iranian descent.

The deeper worry among Turkey’s secular elite is not about creeping Islam but over a loss of power to an encroaching class of pious bureaucrats and entrepreneurs that has become increasingly visible since Turgut Ozal, a modernising former prime minister, liberalised the economy after the generals’ third and most recent direct coup in 1980. And are the days of coups over? That the question can still be posed suggests that a risk remains of further military intervention, however small. “The generals feel cornered, and that makes them dangerous,” says a veteran military observer. That may explain why some in the government would be relieved if the constitutional court did indeed strike down their new law.


Well if you truly believe that Turkey considers people murdering their wifes as "their right" then the joke is on your side my man and I have nothing more to say to you on that matter...

However you should remember that NO idea in this world is suddenly and magically "created" by one single nation and there is nothing wrong with copying good systems from others if you are in the business of trying to establish a new country against all odds.

Also for your information, the only force Ataturk really had to use was against the Ottoman leftovers and against the partitionist Europeans, you being one of them. In Turkey the Greeks are historically and humorously known to be the obedient TOOL of the Brits and by slapping you bitches around we had indirectly beaten the British Empire which was almost unheard of during those years. So you see no one takes pride in ruining the scummy Greek army but it was all about beating your masters indirectly. That's something you should be proud of ;)

And about your little article, you seem to be following the news from far behind, I read about 5 of these papers everyday and I can assure you that there is no points to be gained from basing your assumptions over the conspiracy tales that the AKP fabricates. No one in the right mind in Turkey takes them seriously and neither should you. The backward AKP gang have a long going battle in order to take all power from the army as they happen to be the one and only real obstacle in their quest against the secularism of Turkey. If you know the country so dam well you should know that ever since the coup in the 80's the religious section of the country has gained a lot of power and have come as far as being able to challenge the army, yet the Turkish democracy still stands strong and even these arseholes are allowed to practice their backward politics. But since Greece is still happily governed by backward religious monkeys you wouldn't know a single bit about all this, would you know? Do you even know what secularism or laïcité means?


The legal role (per constitution) of army's generals to control and safeguard a "democratic" state proves my words.I am insisting that the most of citizens in West Turkey (at least the majority of educated people) supporting the generals because of fear of Turkey's future regarding secularism. Personally,despite i am a Greek of Cyprus, i am of few in this ratio who can understand the need of these certain people to support the generals.
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