Cyprus-Forum.com

[Milo]

Nicolas Sarkozy today took a hard line in France's latest row over Islamic dress, saying full veils and face coverings were a sign of women's debasement and "not welcome" on French soil.

He said: "The problem of the burka is not a religious problem, it's a problem of liberty and women's dignity. It's not a religious symbol, but a sign of subservience and debasement. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France. In our country, we can't accept women prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity. That's not our idea of freedom."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... ech-france

Brave man .... 8)

Don,t know about brave stupid springs to mind While its obvious to many that the oppression of the muslim women is apparent, many wear it out of choice and conversion, so here we go again its a man deciding what women can and cannot do. As of course many muslim men do for their women rock and a hard place springs to mind.

Who is he to say islamic veils cut off any social life that many muslim women enjoy!! Speaking to a hijab wearing lady at Larnaca airport last week who is a Docter in her country, I would think she would tell Sarkozy to leave politics to women who would soon get all the worlds mess put right. What next will he come up with?

My inlaws in Iran right now are fighting for womens rights to wear as they PLEASE not as men/religions tell them.

That final statement contradicts what you say earlier and totally supports what Sarkozy is saying. Women should be free to wear as they deem appropriate.

I have a Persian friend, who won't return to Iran because of such matters.

So, you cannot say those Muslim women choose to wear such restraining attire ... they either acknowledge they are obligated to dress like that (those who are free to question such things), or they believe they choose because of the brainwashing from birth!

From the statement you post I would say he IS saying that women cannot and should not wear it in France! Choice does,nt seem to be in his statement, my final statement says rightly that women in Iran who wish to NOT wear the burka can do so, and those that wish to can, assuming that men don,t have the rule over them or their decision which of course is another matter.

My OH is Persian and we have a large family in Iran none who wear anything other than a loose scarf in public, and westernised clothes in the home, they are also non-practicising Muslims so do not pray etc or are forced to, the myth that is Iran sometimes comes from a twisted media or hardline fundamentilists wanting it to be less westernised than it already is.

But the hardliners want it all differently and so we see what has gone on recently. But having said all this there are STILL many muslim women who are NOT coerced at all in wearing what they wish, and would never think it 'restraining' Brainwashing from birth if that happens does not apply half as much today if you see the Iranian youth, but certainly does,nt apply to converts, its should be down to choice and little else. Not frowned on by any government.

I realise there is a fine line with coercion which worries me, but anyone preaching like that prat does makes it worse for the free thinking muslim women, of which there are many. As the islamic world would no doubt see his statements as interference.

Just as many in the Western world are free to dress as they please or maybe to please others , they do the same thing, its just that as westerners we fear what we see as different.

But do agree that any garment or choice of garments thrust upon us as a female society decided on by old men in high places SHOULD be stopped asap. But that sadly will not happen, and this does not just apply to the islamic world.

[Oracle]

Nicolas Sarkozy today took a hard line in France's latest row over Islamic dress, saying full veils and face coverings were a sign of women's debasement and "not welcome" on French soil.

He said: "The problem of the burka is not a religious problem, it's a problem of liberty and women's dignity. It's not a religious symbol, but a sign of subservience and debasement. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France. In our country, we can't accept women prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity. That's not our idea of freedom."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... ech-france

Brave man .... 8)

Don,t know about brave stupid springs to mind While its obvious to many that the oppression of the muslim women is apparent, many wear it out of choice and conversion, so here we go again its a man deciding what women can and cannot do. As of course many muslim men do for their women rock and a hard place springs to mind.

Who is he to say islamic veils cut off any social life that many muslim women enjoy!! Speaking to a hijab wearing lady at Larnaca airport last week who is a Docter in her country, I would think she would tell Sarkozy to leave politics to women who would soon get all the worlds mess put right. What next will he come up with?

My inlaws in Iran right now are fighting for womens rights to wear as they PLEASE not as men/religions tell them.

That final statement contradicts what you say earlier and totally supports what Sarkozy is saying. Women should be free to wear as they deem appropriate.

I have a Persian friend, who won't return to Iran because of such matters.

So, you cannot say those Muslim women choose to wear such restraining attire ... they either acknowledge they are obligated to dress like that (those who are free to question such things), or they believe they choose because of the brainwashing from birth!

From the statement you post I would say he IS saying that women cannot and should not wear it in France! Choice does,nt seem to be in his statement, my final statement says rightly that women in Iran who wish to NOT wear the burka can do so, and those that wish to can, assuming that men don,t have the rule over them or their decision which of course is another matter.

My OH is Persian and we have a large family in Iran none who wear anything other than a loose scarf in public, and westernised clothes in the home, they are also non-practicising Muslims so do not pray etc or are forced to, the myth that is Iran sometimes comes from a twisted media or hardline fundamentilists wanting it to be less westernised than it already is.

But the hardliners want it all differently and so we see what has gone on recently. But having said all this there are STILL many muslim women who are NOT coerced at all in wearing what they wish, and would never think it 'restraining' Brainwashing from birth if that happens does not apply half as much today if you see the Iranian youth, but certainly does,nt apply to converts, its should be down to choice and little else. Not frowned on by any government.

I realise there is a fine line with coercion which worries me, but anyone preaching like that prat does makes it worse for the free thinking muslim women, of which there are many. As the islamic world would no doubt see his statements as interference.

Just as many in the Western world are free to dress as they please or maybe to please others , they do the same thing, its just that as westerners we fear what we see as different.

But do agree that any garment or choice of garments thrust upon us as a female society decided on by old men in high places SHOULD be stopped asap. But that sadly will not happen, and this does not just apply to the islamic world.

No Lyn, he is not being a prat by speaking out in this way and I do not think any rational thinking women would turn his support away.

Removing these oppressive symbols is the only way Muslim women are going to go through liberation such as Western women underwent nearly 100 years ago.

Clothes/uniforms matter in this way and that is why they are abused by the sick pseudo-religious control freaks who want to deny women their rightful place in the world.

I'm too upset to discuss this with you further at the moment, but I'm sure you have by now heard about the disgusting shooting of Neda in Iran, targeted because she was a woman and wearing Western clothes.

Here is the youtube of the news from yesterday presenting her sad final moments, and it is really upsetting, so listen to the presenter and you can skip the middle bit of the death, and go to the end analysis ...

[Sotos]

or they believe they choose because of the brainwashing from birth!

If you think about it this is how it is for most things we believe. It is very few things that we discover by ourselves. Most things we learn from family, school and society.

[Oracle]

or they believe they choose because of the brainwashing from birth!

If you think about it this is how it is for most things we believe. It is very few things that we discover by ourselves. Most things we learn from family, school and society.

Yes Sotos ... but we are given an abundance of freedom to express ourselves without fear of being shot or imprisoned if we do not "choose" a particular item!

Most things we pick up from peers ... but if we get it wrong .... we can still live! We might be laughed at for wearing bell-bottom jeans instead of drainpipes ... but it's not a matter of life or death!

[humanist]

yeah ... I found Milo's perspective interesting about a man making decisions about women.

As person living in a Western country however, I find Burkas intimidating to a level. It really spooks me out. I wonder on the other hand whether France has the right to request that visitors and residents of that country need not be dressed in such way, just as some Muslin Countries forbid residents and visitors to their countries not wear miniskirts etc.

Same thing different piece of clothing

[Oracle]

I think everyone is missing the point here.

It's not about preventing anyone choosing what they wear. It is about releasing them from the obligation (brainwashed or other) of feeling threatened if they DO NOT wear these oppressive, restraining forms of dress.

After all ... anything goes in France ... so he is hardly saying a "fashion" item is not allowed ... He is clearly making a very strong statement of showing this particular form of "attire" for what it actually is!

He is an absolute genius ....

[Sotos]

or they believe they choose because of the brainwashing from birth!

If you think about it this is how it is for most things we believe. It is very few things that we discover by ourselves. Most things we learn from family, school and society.

Yes Sotos ... but we are given an abundance of freedom to express ourselves without fear of being shot or imprisoned if we do not "choose" a particular item!

Most things we pick up from peers ... but if we get it wrong .... we can still live! We might be laughed at for wearing bell-bottom jeans instead of drainpipes ... but it's not a matter of life or death!

Yes in Europe it is not a matter of life or death because we don't have the death penalty. But you can be put in jail and have consequences from society if your don't follow the rules. Try walking naked in the supermarket tomorrow and count how much time it will take until you get arrested The difference is really on how much of your body a society allows you to show in public. Some allow more some allow less. Freedom is not an option anywhere. There are society rules everywhere.

[Milo]

I think everyone is missing the point here.

It's not about preventing anyone choosing what they wear. It is about releasing them from the obligation (brainwashed or other) of feeling threatened if they DO NOT wear these oppressive, restraining forms of dress.

After all ... anything goes in France ... so he is hardly saying a "fashion" item is not allowed ... He is clearly making a very strong statement of showing this particular form of "attire" for what it actually is!

He is an absolute genius ....

No... this man is a genius:-

'Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit – for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism'.

President Obama in his speech on June 4th in Cairo.

Full text here:- Its a bit long but probably one of the most significant speeches he has made so far imho of course.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/po ... ted=1&_r=1

I will ignore the fact that you used the shocking death of the beautiful Neda in front of her father as an example. Her oppression in her own country to not have the freedom to chose is as significant as muslim women being given the same choice to wear whatever, wherever they chose to be. Seeing the veil as 'oppressive' already puts them in a different bracket. Why? I am only including those that wish to wear the full veil, and those of course that don,t in their own countries, its the freedom to chose that women worldwide have wanted for decades, IF these stupid archaic men in govt have to say anything they should at least put their backing behind that, not make it much more difficult. If not they should shut up!!

I don,t particularly like looking at the average british young women in the UK or in Cyprus for that matter with large hooped earings white high heels and their chests hanging out but I would,nt lobby parliament to stop it.

[Paphitis]

or they believe they choose because of the brainwashing from birth!

If you think about it this is how it is for most things we believe. It is very few things that we discover by ourselves. Most things we learn from family, school and society.

This is the true nature of religious evilness. It inhibits rational thought as Muslim and Christian children are brainwashed or indoctrinated at an early age. Just because children are indoctrinated does not make them Christian or Muslim. It just means they have religious parents, and many are trapped in something they do not believe in. An anathema to creating a free thinking and liberal society.

Islamic countries such as Iran are just the extreme of this. But many christian countries are approaching fundamentalist ideals. The US is a good example of this. The Greek Orthodox Church in Cyprus and Greece are also a good example.

[Oracle]

[No... this man is a genius:-

'Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit – for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism'.

President Obama in his speech on June 4th in Cairo.

He was telling the Egyptians what they wanted to hear. So, yes he was a Genius Diplomat.

Lyn, do you seriously think "practicing religion as they see fit" applies to stoning and honour killings?

Because those are the consequences of the low value placed on women's lives; and the contrast between men and women is CONSTANTLY reinforced ...