Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Calm down people. This is not the OK Coral, but the Cyprus Forum. Lets not challenge each other to a DUEL in person, but only in "virtual reality".!

[YFred]

I need more than that.... And if you really could go on all night I would love to know what really sends you round the bend with the current status of the constitution. Today is more important to me than yesterday...

Well, for starters the TC's do not have a veto today.

No. They have a bigger stick. Which would you have prefered? A veto or the whole island?

The whole island without a veto. Veto all you like on matters that involve the TC community specifically and list them before hand in the constitution. But to have the arrogance to think that 18% of the population should be able to stop ANY law or action by the govt is ludicrous.

Especially when the ties with Turkey are so strong and it will take decades for the Cypriot Turks to start acting for the benefit of Cyprus and not the benefit of Turkey.

Well, this is where democracy was a failure. Even the 30:70 would not have saved the TCs from the overpowering GCs. What chance would 18% have. These figures were presented to give the TCs a chance of survival. Not perfect but no chance was given to the people of Cyprus to work this out -TOGETHER. Now we have this mess. I pray that those who created this mess rot in hell.

I second that.

These figures were not presented to give the TCs a chance at survival. Denktash had the walk out from govt ready from day 1. His ministers in govt left behind instructions on the manner in which they will walk out.

If the TC's were interested in survival then they would not have blocked vital functions of the govt eventually leading it into paralysis. If the TC's were interested in survival then they would have insisted on strong protection rights for their community on specific situations that interest only the TC's. How do you expect to survive when 82% of the population of your country is being repeatedly discriminated against?

Here I am claiming democracy and human rights and gimps like Yfred who could not comprehend democracy and human rights if it was dipped like a shoushouko in front of them, is arguing against WHAT? democracy and human rights.

Is gimp a self portrait DT, after all you are the product of the Greek Army. And we all know what the Greeks like old boy, don't we now?

We will have democracy you little shitbag with you or without you, sooner or later.

BTW if you need psychological help on account of your family's contribution to the Cyprus problem I am sure help is available, but if there isn't come over to UK and get some treatment, it’s free.

You have anything to say to me you treasonous, grey wolf, placenta by-product come say it to my face. My office is on Kennedy Avenue, Nicosia on the still democratic, still free side of the island. If interested I'll pm you the exact address.

Treasonous are those who plotted to destroy Cyprus without any consideration to the population at large and the price they will pay with their lives, as well as those who defend those very people to this day.

And no I have no intention of coming to the south, or have any need to see you or say anything to you. In fact this will be my last post to you.

[DT.]

I need more than that.... And if you really could go on all night I would love to know what really sends you round the bend with the current status of the constitution. Today is more important to me than yesterday...

Well, for starters the TC's do not have a veto today.

No. They have a bigger stick. Which would you have prefered? A veto or the whole island?

The whole island without a veto. Veto all you like on matters that involve the TC community specifically and list them before hand in the constitution. But to have the arrogance to think that 18% of the population should be able to stop ANY law or action by the govt is ludicrous.

Especially when the ties with Turkey are so strong and it will take decades for the Cypriot Turks to start acting for the benefit of Cyprus and not the benefit of Turkey.

Well, this is where democracy was a failure. Even the 30:70 would not have saved the TCs from the overpowering GCs. What chance would 18% have. These figures were presented to give the TCs a chance of survival. Not perfect but no chance was given to the people of Cyprus to work this out -TOGETHER. Now we have this mess. I pray that those who created this mess rot in hell.

I second that.

These figures were not presented to give the TCs a chance at survival. Denktash had the walk out from govt ready from day 1. His ministers in govt left behind instructions on the manner in which they will walk out.

If the TC's were interested in survival then they would not have blocked vital functions of the govt eventually leading it into paralysis. If the TC's were interested in survival then they would have insisted on strong protection rights for their community on specific situations that interest only the TC's. How do you expect to survive when 82% of the population of your country is being repeatedly discriminated against?

Here I am claiming democracy and human rights and gimps like Yfred who could not comprehend democracy and human rights if it was dipped like a shoushouko in front of them, is arguing against WHAT? democracy and human rights.

Is gimp a self portrait DT, after all you are the product of the Greek Army. And we all know what the Greeks like old boy, don't we now?

We will have democracy you little shitbag with you or without you, sooner or later.

BTW if you need psychological help on account of your family's contribution to the Cyprus problem I am sure help is available, but if there isn't come over to UK and get some treatment, it’s free.

You have anything to say to me you treasonous, grey wolf, placenta by-product come say it to my face. My office is on Kennedy Avenue, Nicosia on the still democratic, still free side of the island. If interested I'll pm you the exact address.

Treasonous are those who plotted to destroy Cyprus without any consideration to the population at large and the price they will pay with their lives, as well as those who defend those very people to this day.

And no I have no intention of coming to the south, or have any need to see you or say anything to you. In fact this will be my last post to you.

Hallelujah!

Thats one more Grey Wolf off my back.

[Get Real!]

Well, this is where democracy was a failure. Even the 30:70 would not have saved the TCs from the overpowering GCs. What chance would 18% have. These figures were presented to give the TCs a chance of survival. Not perfect but no chance was given to the people of Cyprus to work this out -TOGETHER. Now we have this mess. I pray that those who created this mess rot in hell.

That’s the screwed up logic the Brits wanted everyone to believe but they knew well that the TCs being given 30% meant certain persecution from the disgruntled GCs.

[james_mav]

Anyone who thinks that the constitution that was given to us by the Brits, in order to maintain a divide and rule policy, where one community did not by itself have the power to take a decision such as...oh I don't know....demand the removal of the british bases...is bullshitting.

Are you saying that the constitution was not drafted under the influence of foreign powers in a way that would likely fail, giving foreign powers an opportunity to interfere?

[DT.]

Anyone who thinks that the constitution that was given to us by the Brits, in order to maintain a divide and rule policy, where one community did not by itself have the power to take a decision such as...oh I don't know....demand the removal of the british bases...is bullshitting.

Are you saying that the constitution was not drafted under the influence of foreign powers in a way that would likely fail, giving foreign powers an opportunity to interfere?

Worded badly...we're saying the same thing.

[denizaksulu]

I need more than that.... And if you really could go on all night I would love to know what really sends you round the bend with the current status of the constitution. Today is more important to me than yesterday...

Well, for starters the TC's do not have a veto today.

No. They have a bigger stick. Which would you have prefered? A veto or the whole island?

The whole island without a veto. Veto all you like on matters that involve the TC community specifically and list them before hand in the constitution. But to have the arrogance to think that 18% of the population should be able to stop ANY law or action by the govt is ludicrous.

Especially when the ties with Turkey are so strong and it will take decades for the Cypriot Turks to start acting for the benefit of Cyprus and not the benefit of Turkey.

Well, this is where democracy was a failure. Even the 30:70 would not have saved the TCs from the overpowering GCs. What chance would 18% have. These figures were presented to give the TCs a chance of survival. Not perfect but no chance was given to the people of Cyprus to work this out -TOGETHER. Now we have this mess. I pray that those who created this mess rot in hell.

this is where democracy was a failure

Deniz,

But there was no such thing as a Democracy in Cyprus, at least not the kind of Democracy the West is built on, and that's why it failed. Numbers such as 30%-70% are a problem when unfair allocations of Government jobs, Government seats and a 50% power in the form of a veto power is given to a 18% of the population in an undemocratic method just because they are 18% and not because of earning those positions. In fact, a veto power by any group is not just 50% power control, but a full 100% power control, therefore the 18% had full 100% power and not just 50%. Where is the Democracy in that.? They also had "Democracy" in South Africa where the minority whites also had full 100% power over the majority, so was that also a Democracy or something else.? The whites believed it was a Democracy, but was it.? On the other hand, the Blacks in the USA are only 10% of the overall US population and only through True Democracy (in the last 50 years or so), we have a Black President. But yet, with 18% of the overall Cyprus population, a TC could never have become a president according to the 1960 constitution, so once again, where was the Democracy in that.? Today the TC's still want to go back to those dark days of no Democracy but only to privileges instead as the case was in the 1960 constitution, and also wanting a separate state in their own name built mostly on others land in a form of a "founding state" which can become independent anytime in the future just by the majority in that state voting for it. No wonder the GC's are in no mood to grant the 18% (less than 10% now) today what was given to them in 1960 by the British. I think it is high time , that in order to find a solution to Cyprus, everyone will need to walk in everyone else’s shoes a mile or so to understand where the others are coming from and not just only insisting on, I want, I want, I want.!

Hi, Kiks,

Thanks for your response and wise words.
One can only guess as to why it was necessary to have the above quoted figures. I know i6t is not the democratic way to 'run' a country. The British obviously had a motive in suggesting this with Greece and Turkey. Apart from self interest of the three guarantors, I think that they were there (the figures) to enable the TCs to survive and to 'veto' any moves that would drag Cyprus towards Enosis or total subjugation to the GC majority. It was obvious that it was not the best solution, but it could have worked if there was ever the will.

As to DTs comment on the incriminating 'alleged' documents left behind by TC ministers, this we had discussed nearly two years ago. Have these ever been 'authenticated'? In the past has Clerides ever asked Denktash as to their authenticity. Perhaps Piratis has a video clip of these as he does give credence to anything that Denktash says.(bombing of the press offices etc). I am just curious. Perhaps these ministers had a plan 'B' and had seen the writing on the wall.

Anyway, we are here now and what is next?

[DT.]

I need more than that.... And if you really could go on all night I would love to know what really sends you round the bend with the current status of the constitution. Today is more important to me than yesterday...

Well, for starters the TC's do not have a veto today.

No. They have a bigger stick. Which would you have prefered? A veto or the whole island?

The whole island without a veto. Veto all you like on matters that involve the TC community specifically and list them before hand in the constitution. But to have the arrogance to think that 18% of the population should be able to stop ANY law or action by the govt is ludicrous.

Especially when the ties with Turkey are so strong and it will take decades for the Cypriot Turks to start acting for the benefit of Cyprus and not the benefit of Turkey.

Well, this is where democracy was a failure. Even the 30:70 would not have saved the TCs from the overpowering GCs. What chance would 18% have. These figures were presented to give the TCs a chance of survival. Not perfect but no chance was given to the people of Cyprus to work this out -TOGETHER. Now we have this mess. I pray that those who created this mess rot in hell.

this is where democracy was a failure

Deniz,

But there was no such thing as a Democracy in Cyprus, at least not the kind of Democracy the West is built on, and that's why it failed. Numbers such as 30%-70% are a problem when unfair allocations of Government jobs, Government seats and a 50% power in the form of a veto power is given to a 18% of the population in an undemocratic method just because they are 18% and not because of earning those positions. In fact, a veto power by any group is not just 50% power control, but a full 100% power control, therefore the 18% had full 100% power and not just 50%. Where is the Democracy in that.? They also had "Democracy" in South Africa where the minority whites also had full 100% power over the majority, so was that also a Democracy or something else.? The whites believed it was a Democracy, but was it.? On the other hand, the Blacks in the USA are only 10% of the overall US population and only through True Democracy (in the last 50 years or so), we have a Black President. But yet, with 18% of the overall Cyprus population, a TC could never have become a president according to the 1960 constitution, so once again, where was the Democracy in that.? Today the TC's still want to go back to those dark days of no Democracy but only to privileges instead as the case was in the 1960 constitution, and also wanting a separate state in their own name built mostly on others land in a form of a "founding state" which can become independent anytime in the future just by the majority in that state voting for it. No wonder the GC's are in no mood to grant the 18% (less than 10% now) today what was given to them in 1960 by the British. I think it is high time , that in order to find a solution to Cyprus, everyone will need to walk in everyone else’s shoes a mile or so to understand where the others are coming from and not just only insisting on, I want, I want, I want.!

Hi, Kiks,

Thanks for your response and wise words.
One can only guess as to why it was necessary to have the above quoted figures. I know i6t is not the democratic way to 'run' a country. The British obviously had a motive in suggesting this with Greece and Turkey. Apart from self interest of the three guarantors, I think that they were there (the figures) to enable the TCs to survive and to 'veto' any moves that would drag Cyprus towards Enosis or total subjugation to the GC majority. It was obvious that it was not the best solution, but it could have worked if there was ever the will.

As to DTs comment on the incriminating 'alleged' documents left behind by TC ministers, this we had discussed nearly two years ago. Have these ever been 'authenticated'? In the past has Clerides ever asked Denktash as to their authenticity. Perhaps Piratis has a video clip of these as he does give credence to anything that Denktash says.(bombing of the press offices etc). I am just curious. Perhaps these ministers had a plan 'B' and had seen the writing on the wall.

Anyway, we are here now and what is next?

Anyway, we are here now and what is next?

Deniz, WE are here. The TC's are still then. Take a lok at the difference of points raised in the negotiations.

We say no virgin birth so that one of the statlets (not saying names) doesn't get tempted to leave the federation with the temptation of being on an exact equal legal footing with the other statelet.

We say no guarantees and no outside influence in this Independent EU Member state. The TC's are still dragging out treaties from the 60's in the year 2009. How can you expect us who have lived independently for so long to accept the interference of Turkey in the running of our state?

Christofias says (and I say Christofias says cause I'm not sure on the support he has on this) a rotating Presidency with a time bias to the numerical majority. Talat says a committee that rotates the Chairman every 6 months. Its obvious that Talat here is trying his best to avoid creating a strong persona and position in the Presidency because this would then lead to a strong central govt.

Christofias says no military and Talat quotes the treaty of Guarantee again, wanting Greek and Turkish bases on the island.

Chrstofias says 1 central bank, Talat says 2. Does Talat even know that the central bank we have now is obsolete since the decisions for the EURO are taken in Frankfurt?

I won't go into land, admin and settlers yet cause it'll take me all day but you get the gist. Who's arguments seem realistic to you? Who's arguments reek of windows of opportunity for partition and who wants a united country?

Who's here and who's still back then?

[denizaksulu]

I need more than that.... And if you really could go on all night I would love to know what really sends you round the bend with the current status of the constitution. Today is more important to me than yesterday...

Well, for starters the TC's do not have a veto today.

No. They have a bigger stick. Which would you have prefered? A veto or the whole island?

The whole island without a veto. Veto all you like on matters that involve the TC community specifically and list them before hand in the constitution. But to have the arrogance to think that 18% of the population should be able to stop ANY law or action by the govt is ludicrous.

Especially when the ties with Turkey are so strong and it will take decades for the Cypriot Turks to start acting for the benefit of Cyprus and not the benefit of Turkey.

Well, this is where democracy was a failure. Even the 30:70 would not have saved the TCs from the overpowering GCs. What chance would 18% have. These figures were presented to give the TCs a chance of survival. Not perfect but no chance was given to the people of Cyprus to work this out -TOGETHER. Now we have this mess. I pray that those who created this mess rot in hell.

this is where democracy was a failure

Deniz,

But there was no such thing as a Democracy in Cyprus, at least not the kind of Democracy the West is built on, and that's why it failed. Numbers such as 30%-70% are a problem when unfair allocations of Government jobs, Government seats and a 50% power in the form of a veto power is given to a 18% of the population in an undemocratic method just because they are 18% and not because of earning those positions. In fact, a veto power by any group is not just 50% power control, but a full 100% power control, therefore the 18% had full 100% power and not just 50%. Where is the Democracy in that.? They also had "Democracy" in South Africa where the minority whites also had full 100% power over the majority, so was that also a Democracy or something else.? The whites believed it was a Democracy, but was it.? On the other hand, the Blacks in the USA are only 10% of the overall US population and only through True Democracy (in the last 50 years or so), we have a Black President. But yet, with 18% of the overall Cyprus population, a TC could never have become a president according to the 1960 constitution, so once again, where was the Democracy in that.? Today the TC's still want to go back to those dark days of no Democracy but only to privileges instead as the case was in the 1960 constitution, and also wanting a separate state in their own name built mostly on others land in a form of a "founding state" which can become independent anytime in the future just by the majority in that state voting for it. No wonder the GC's are in no mood to grant the 18% (less than 10% now) today what was given to them in 1960 by the British. I think it is high time , that in order to find a solution to Cyprus, everyone will need to walk in everyone else’s shoes a mile or so to understand where the others are coming from and not just only insisting on, I want, I want, I want.!

Hi, Kiks,

Thanks for your response and wise words.
One can only guess as to why it was necessary to have the above quoted figures. I know i6t is not the democratic way to 'run' a country. The British obviously had a motive in suggesting this with Greece and Turkey. Apart from self interest of the three guarantors, I think that they were there (the figures) to enable the TCs to survive and to 'veto' any moves that would drag Cyprus towards Enosis or total subjugation to the GC majority. It was obvious that it was not the best solution, but it could have worked if there was ever the will.

As to DTs comment on the incriminating 'alleged' documents left behind by TC ministers, this we had discussed nearly two years ago. Have these ever been 'authenticated'? In the past has Clerides ever asked Denktash as to their authenticity. Perhaps Piratis has a video clip of these as he does give credence to anything that Denktash says.(bombing of the press offices etc). I am just curious. Perhaps these ministers had a plan 'B' and had seen the writing on the wall.

Anyway, we are here now and what is next?

Anyway, we are here now and what is next?

Deniz, WE are here. The TC's are still then. Take a lok at the difference of points raised in the negotiations.

We say no virgin birth so that one of the statlets (not saying names) doesn't get tempted to leave the federation with the temptation of being on an exact equal legal footing with the other statelet.

We say no guarantees and no outside influence in this Independent EU Member state. The TC's are still dragging out treaties from the 60's in the year 2009. How can you expect us who have lived independently for so long to accept the interference of Turkey in the running of our state?

Christofias says (and I say Christofias says cause I'm not sure on the support he has on this) a rotating Presidency with a time bias to the numerical majority. Talat says a committee that rotates the Chairman every 6 months. Its obvious that Talat here is trying his best to avoid creating a strong persona and position in the Presidency because this would then lead to a strong central govt.

Christofias says no military and Talat quotes the treaty of Guarantee again, wanting Greek and Turkish bases on the island.

Chrstofias says 1 central bank, Talat says 2. Does Talat even know that the central bank we have now is obsolete since the decisions for the EURO are taken in Frankfurt?

I won't go into land, admin and settlers yet cause it'll take me all day but you get the gist. Who's arguments seem realistic to you? Who's arguments reek of windows of opportunity for partition and who wants a united country?

Who's here and who's still back then?

From the above post, there isnt much I disagree with.

Whereas I can put my trust into the hands of 'democracy' now, it seems Talat is not free to do so. Perhaps a bit paranoiac. This could be attributed to past experiences with the GC 's.Then there are those that will lose in the event of a 'peace agreement'.

As to getting rid of Turkey as a guarantor, I think Talat has no say in the matter. The North is the 'whore' and Turkey is the 'pimp'. Figure it out.

I hear the Grey wolves coming.

[james_mav]

You have anything to say to me you treasonous, grey wolf, placenta by-product come say it to my face.

Why would you call a tourkomogolo a traitor? Do you believe that the mogoloi on Cyprus (before '74) ever gave their allegiance to Cyprus, rather than to tourkomogolistan, or to a tourkomogolistani protectorate in Cyprus? For someone to be a traitor to Cyprus, one must've held an allegiance to Cyprus in the first place.