Cyprus-Forum.com

[alexISS]

Sorry for the pessimistic assessment, but as far as maritime defense and air cover go, the only hope for Cyprus is the Hellenic navy and air force, respectively.

Forget those fucking mythological poofters! They’ll be lucky to hang on to their rocks in the Aegean!

We do a fine job keeping "our rocks" intact. I wonder how would "you" fare without the backing of Greece, the only reason Turkey hasn't invaded the rest of the island. You talk and talk and talk, but it's Greece that keeps Turkey away from Cyprus, not your posts.

Also, regardless of how annoying your silly little posts are, I hope you'll continue with the same passion. It looks like you've attracted a few new members who are clearly in disagreement with you, bringing the Cyprus Forum closer to representing the Cypriot public opinion

[YFred]

The only realistic and cost effective maritime defense deployable against a greenwater navy by Cyprus would be mobile, land-based anti-ship missiles.

We already have the Exoset MM40 for that, but all the Turkish fleet has to do is drop anchor out of range rendering them useless, that’s why attack choppers that can travel at 360Km p/h, use sophisticated radar and armed with anti-ship missiles, are the way to go!

The missile armed helicopters are a possibility, but they're not as effective as you would think.

Firstly, they're not all that survivable against anti-aircraft defences - mongolistan warships would have high altitude high-speed air cover (think F-16s with medium range air-air missiles), as well as their own anti-aircraft defences.

Secondly, because they're low-flying and with low power radars, it will be hard for them to even find enemy warships. The usual airborne maritime patrol is something like a P-3 Orion, which is able to operate from high altitude with a massive, long range radar and longer range harpoon missiles. Cypriot exocet-armed helicopters would be effective against unarmed or lightly armed boats (e.g. landing craft) but not against more modern warships.

The Russian Hinds can travel and fire just off the surface of the water! No radar probs!

I would be a lot easier for everybody if you guys just accepted the inevitable instead of wasting all that GC Tax on useless toys. Wake up.

[james_mav]

All the RoC requires is a few Gun Boats, or Fast Attack Craft.

We’ve already got small patrol gun boats but they’re not good enough against the Turkish navy on their own. If it comes to a confrontation our best bet is to use our squadron of Mi-35Ps loaded with Exocet AM39s.

Yes, I think I've seen these boats moored at a base near a village on the south coast, a village with some excellent fish restaurants. I had something a little more substantial in mind.

Whatever is needed in this area must be done. To do nothing sends the wrong messages and is negligent.

In fact to do something is reckless and negligent. There will not be a shooting war over this; to needlessly squander billions of euros on warships that are not necessary would be insane.

I do not think it would cost billions of euros for a couple of second hand boats of suitable size as ... A Deterent.

It certainly would cost that much for boats that would any hope against the mongolistan navy.

Although the mongolistan navy is only of intermediate quality, in order to survive in particular against mongolistan submarines and aircraft, a greenwater Cypriot navy would need very expensive and sophisticated anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare systems, including long range tracking radars, high end sonar, long-range surface to air missiles capable of engaging high performance F-16s, heavyweight torpedoes capable of engaging deep diving submarines, probably an ASW helicopter platform, and a credible anti-ship armament. The lack of air cover is a major concern; it is very hard for surface warships to defend themselves against high performance aircraft at close quarters.

And don't forget the time it would take to acquire the boats and train up crews. Fantasyland I'm afraid.

The only realistic and cost effective maritime defense deployable against a greenwater navy by Cyprus would be mobile, land-based anti-ship missiles. These are basically tracked vehicles (i.e. the base of a tank) that carry either a search radar, missile launchers, or spare missiles. You spread them out along the coastlines you control, and keep moving them around (especially the radars) to prevent your enemy locating and destroying them. Someone also mentioned exocet-armed helicopters. This is possible, but again the lack of a credible defense against high performance F-16s means that helicopters in an anti-shipping role are not likely to survive long, so you will need quite a few of them, and be prepared to lose some.

Sorry for the pessimistic assessment, but as far as maritime defense and air cover go, the only hope for Cyprus is the Hellenic navy and air force, respectively.

All Cyprus needs is a few cheap Fast Attack Craft with SSM.

This is the only feasible scenario, and the missiles are able to strike from over 150kms away.

La-Combattante Class FAC are very cheap and easily manned.

Cyprus does not need anything else. The only thing required is an adequate deterrence and to effectively patrol the EEZ and offer escorts to exploration and drilling vessels.

An FAC is extremely effective against much larger Turkish Navy destroyers and they can be equipped with Air Defence as well.

Since we only want to patrol the EEZ, we do not require ASW.

Sorry, I would have to disagree with you.

I agree, the La-Combattante is not all expensive, but the weapons systems required are extremely expensive. The size of the territory you want to defend is not nearly as important as the weapons your enemy has; our enemy has very capable submarines, hence an ASW capability is required unless you want your ships to go to the bottom on the ocean in the first 12 hours of a conflict. Also, in a close-range setting, the only real air defense against the mogolo air force is an equivalent airforce. It is hard for a slow moving ship on the surface to defend itself against a fast moving missile-armed aircraft traveling at supersonic speeds at 38,000 feet.

The Hellenic Navy operates these boats and they are survivable during a conflict in the Aegean because the Hellenic Navy and Air Force posses high end anti-aircraft, anti-submarine, and C4I assets, so the Hellenic Navy version of these boats don't need all the expensive crap, they're just missile boats. But in an isolated engagement where Hellenic Navy and Airforce assets are absent, they're toast against the mongolistan airforce and navy.

[EPSILON]

The only realistic and cost effective maritime defense deployable against a greenwater navy by Cyprus would be mobile, land-based anti-ship missiles.

We already have the Exoset MM40 for that, but all the Turkish fleet has to do is drop anchor out of range rendering them useless, that’s why attack choppers that can travel at 360Km p/h, use sophisticated radar and armed with anti-ship missiles, are the way to go!

The missile armed helicopters are a possibility, but they're not as effective as you would think.

Firstly, they're not all that survivable against anti-aircraft defences - mongolistan warships would have high altitude high-speed air cover (think F-16s with medium range air-air missiles), as well as their own anti-aircraft defences.

Secondly, because they're low-flying and with low power radars, it will be hard for them to even find enemy warships. The usual airborne maritime patrol is something like a P-3 Orion, which is able to operate from high altitude with a massive, long range radar and longer range harpoon missiles. Cypriot exocet-armed helicopters would be effective against unarmed or lightly armed boats (e.g. landing craft) but not against more modern warships.

The Russian Hinds can travel and fire just off the surface of the water! No radar probs!

I would be a lot easier for everybody if you guys just accepted the inevitable instead of wasting all that GC Tax on useless toys. Wake up.

Is not useless atall. Just giving some costs to the other side and most important giving some time till .......you see what you (and your generals) afraid to see in the area.

[james_mav]

The only realistic and cost effective maritime defense deployable against a greenwater navy by Cyprus would be mobile, land-based anti-ship missiles.

We already have the Exoset MM40 for that, but all the Turkish fleet has to do is drop anchor out of range rendering them useless, that’s why attack choppers that can travel at 360Km p/h, use sophisticated radar and armed with anti-ship missiles, are the way to go!

The missile armed helicopters are a possibility, but they're not as effective as you would think.

Firstly, they're not all that survivable against anti-aircraft defences - mongolistan warships would have high altitude high-speed air cover (think F-16s with medium range air-air missiles), as well as their own anti-aircraft defences.

Secondly, because they're low-flying and with low power radars, it will be hard for them to even find enemy warships. The usual airborne maritime patrol is something like a P-3 Orion, which is able to operate from high altitude with a massive, long range radar and longer range harpoon missiles. Cypriot exocet-armed helicopters would be effective against unarmed or lightly armed boats (e.g. landing craft) but not against more modern warships.

The Russian Hinds can travel and fire just off the surface of the water! No radar probs!

If enemy warships are beyond the range of ground based radar, the aircraft you sent out to engage them will need to actually find them first. For this they will need tracking radar. Exocet equipped helicopters will have a low power radar at best. The other solution is a powerful ground based radar that can relay targeting data to helicopters and guide them to firing positions, but again, you get into the territory of requiring very expensive C4I systems in order to achieve this.

[Icarus]

All the RoC requires is a few Gun Boats, or Fast Attack Craft.

We’ve already got small patrol gun boats but they’re not good enough against the Turkish navy on their own. If it comes to a confrontation our best bet is to use our squadron of Mi-35Ps loaded with Exocet AM39s.

Yes, I think I've seen these boats moored at a base near a village on the south coast, a village with some excellent fish restaurants. I had something a little more substantial in mind.

Whatever is needed in this area must be done. To do nothing sends the wrong messages and is negligent.

In fact to do something is reckless and negligent. There will not be a shooting war over this; to needlessly squander billions of euros on warships that are not necessary would be insane.

I do not think it would cost billions of euros for a couple of second hand boats of suitable size as ... A Deterent.

It certainly would cost that much for boats that would any hope against the mongolistan navy.

Although the mongolistan navy is only of intermediate quality, in order to survive in particular against mongolistan submarines and aircraft, a greenwater Cypriot navy would need very expensive and sophisticated anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare systems, including long range tracking radars, high end sonar, long-range surface to air missiles capable of engaging high performance F-16s, heavyweight torpedoes capable of engaging deep diving submarines, probably an ASW helicopter platform, and a credible anti-ship armament. The lack of air cover is a major concern; it is very hard for surface warships to defend themselves against high performance aircraft at close quarters.

And don't forget the time it would take to acquire the boats and train up crews. Fantasyland I'm afraid.

The only realistic and cost effective maritime defense deployable against a greenwater navy by Cyprus would be mobile, land-based anti-ship missiles. These are basically tracked vehicles (i.e. the base of a tank) that carry either a search radar, missile launchers, or spare missiles. You spread them out along the coastlines you control, and keep moving them around (especially the radars) to prevent your enemy locating and destroying them. Someone also mentioned exocet-armed helicopters. This is possible, but again the lack of a credible defense against high performance F-16s means that helicopters in an anti-shipping role are not likely to survive long, so you will need quite a few of them, and be prepared to lose some.

Sorry for the pessimistic assessment, but as far as maritime defense and air cover go, the only hope for Cyprus is the Hellenic navy and air force, respectively.

All Cyprus needs is a few cheap Fast Attack Craft with SSM.

This is the only feasible scenario, and the missiles are able to strike from over 150kms away.

La-Combattante Class FAC are very cheap and easily manned.

Cyprus does not need anything else. The only thing required is an adequate deterrence and to effectively patrol the EEZ and offer escorts to exploration and drilling vessels.

An FAC is extremely effective against much larger Turkish Navy destroyers and they can be equipped with Air Defence as well.

Since we only want to patrol the EEZ, we do not require ASW.

Sorry, I would have to disagree with you.

I agree, the La-Combattante is not all expensive, but the weapons systems required are extremely expensive. The size of the territory you want to defend is not nearly as important as the weapons your enemy has; our enemy has very capable submarines, hence an ASW capability is required unless you want your ships to go to the bottom on the ocean in the first 12 hours of a conflict. Also, in a close-range setting, the only real air defense against the mogolo air force is an equivalent airforce. It is hard for a slow moving ship on the surface to defend itself against a fast moving missile-armed aircraft traveling at supersonic speeds at 38,000 feet.

The Hellenic Navy operates these boats and they are survivable during a conflict in the Aegean because the Hellenic Navy and Air Force posses high end anti-aircraft, anti-submarine, and C4I assets, so the Hellenic Navy version of these boats don't need all the expensive crap, they're just missile boats. But in an isolated engagement where Hellenic Navy and Airforce assets are absent, they're toast against the mongolistan airforce and navy.

Who said anything about fighting a war?

Of course Cyprus is not capable enough to tackle the Turkish Navy on its own.

But FAC offer an excellent deterrent because it does make Turkish destroyers much more vulnerable.

This is the only realistic option available to us. The key is to effectively patrol the EEZ so that oil and gas exploration can go ahead unhindered.

There is very minimal possibility that the Hellenic Navy is going to offer substantial assets to effectively fight Turkey in Cyprus, so obviously the aim is to offer a substantial deterrent, and not to fight WW111.

[james_mav]

Who said anything about fighting a war?

Of course Cyprus is not capable enough to tackle the Turkish Navy on its own.

But FAC offer an excellent deterrent because it does make Turkish destroyers much more vulnerable.

This is the only realistic option available to us. The key is to effectively patrol the EEZ so that oil and gas exploration can go ahead unhindered.

There is very minimal possibility that the Hellenic Navy is going to offer substantial assets to effectively fight Turkey in Cyprus, so obviously the aim is to offer a substantial deterrence, and not to fight WW111.

For these naval assets to be useful as a deterrent, you need to be prepared to use them. If they're heavily outgunned, which the boats you suggest will be, then very soon after firing your first deterrent shot, you will lose the entire fleet. Hence they are not much of a deterrent. Hence you may as well not have spent the money in the first place.

[james_mav]

Sorry for the pessimistic assessment, but as far as maritime defense and air cover go, the only hope for Cyprus is the Hellenic navy and air force, respectively.

Forget those fucking mythological poofters! They’ll be lucky to hang on to their rocks in the Aegean!

We do a fine job keeping "our rocks" intact. I wonder how would "you" fare without the backing of Greece, the only reason Turkey hasn't invaded the rest of the island. You talk and talk and talk, but it's Greece that keeps Turkey away from Cyprus, not your posts.

Also, regardless of how annoying your silly little posts are, I hope you'll continue with the same passion. It looks like you've attracted a few new members who are clearly in disagreement with you, bringing the Cyprus Forum closer to representing the Cypriot public opinion

What you're saying seems entirely obvious to me, but strangely, not to others. While it may be difficult (although not impossible) for Greece to effectively defend Cypriot territory from further aggression, brutal retaliation (the true deterrent) against mongolistani assets in the Aegean by the Hellenic Navy and Air Force is very much within reach. This is what I believe keeps a lid on tourkomogolian aggression against Cyprus.

[EPSILON]

Who said anything about fighting a war?

Of course Cyprus is not capable enough to tackle the Turkish Navy on its own.

But FAC offer an excellent deterrent because it does make Turkish destroyers much more vulnerable.

This is the only realistic option available to us. The key is to effectively patrol the EEZ so that oil and gas exploration can go ahead unhindered.

There is very minimal possibility that the Hellenic Navy is going to offer substantial assets to effectively fight Turkey in Cyprus, so obviously the aim is to offer a substantial deterrence, and not to fight WW111.

For these naval assets to be useful as a deterrent, you need to be prepared to use them. If they're heavily outgunned, which the boats you suggest will be, then very soon after firing your first deterrent shot, you will lose the entire fleet. Hence they are not much of a deterrent. Hence you may as well not have spent the money in the first place.

James, why i feel that you stolen your location name from my signature?

[james_mav]

Who said anything about fighting a war?

Of course Cyprus is not capable enough to tackle the Turkish Navy on its own.

But FAC offer an excellent deterrent because it does make Turkish destroyers much more vulnerable.

This is the only realistic option available to us. The key is to effectively patrol the EEZ so that oil and gas exploration can go ahead unhindered.

There is very minimal possibility that the Hellenic Navy is going to offer substantial assets to effectively fight Turkey in Cyprus, so obviously the aim is to offer a substantial deterrence, and not to fight WW111.

For these naval assets to be useful as a deterrent, you need to be prepared to use them. If they're heavily outgunned, which the boats you suggest will be, then very soon after firing your first deterrent shot, you will lose the entire fleet. Hence they are not much of a deterrent. Hence you may as well not have spent the money in the first place.

James, why i feel that you stolen your location name from my signature?

Imitation is a finer form of flattery, my friend!

I didn't steal it, I just share the same sentiment as you. With such things, unity and commonality of purpose is much more important than being unique, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, I used to have something else, and it caused a few people to have a bit of a cry, so I changed it.