Cyprus-Forum.com

[Byron]

For Turkey to join the EU all member states must give its approval. Majority voting has not yet been introduced on such important legislation. When one founder member France is openly against Turkish membership and another Italy ( Lega Party ) last week during Euro Elections stated the same confirms that it will be very difficult for Turkey to join the EU. France and Italy are protecting their own interests not that of ROC.

Therefore, Turkey will continue to stall on finding a solution for Cyprus because they know the final result .

[Icarus]

For Turkey to join the EU all member states must give its approval. Majority voting has not yet been introduced on such important legislation. When one founder member France is openly against Turkish membership and another Italy ( Lega Party ) last week during Euro Elections stated the same confirms that it will be very difficult for Turkey to join the EU. France and Italy are protecting their own interests not that of ROC.

Therefore, Turkey will continue to stall on finding a solution for Cyprus because they know the final result .

You are now stating the obvious.

Opposition to Turkey's EU accession is easily circumvented. When other's start throwing their weight around (Who are not even EU members btw), then you will see the Viva Le Francais back flip of the century. You will never see so many French back flips and retreats since WW2....

[Nikitas]

If I were a TC with land in Limassol, I would never want to let it go for some land in any part of the TRNC. The chances are that this will be the general attitude of most TCs simply because money talks. Christofias and Talat can agree on anything they like, the people will pursue their best financial interests.

We all focus on the land situation in the process of seeking an agreement. There is the land aspect AFTER a setllement is reached. People will want to deal in land after the settlement and no one will be able to influence politically a purely economic situation. Land in the business centers of the island will always be more valuable and more profitable than land in some out of the way backwater. We all know where those centers are- Limassol, Nicosia, Famagusta, Larnaca. Those are the place where people will be able to make a living. The rest is tourist land good for retirees and agricultural land the value of which is dependent on water which is a scarce commodity.

It is obvious that most people, GC, TC and others will want to be in the business centers of the island. and not in some arbitrarily drawn region in a BBF. In case you cannot see the situation which will develop let me spell it out:

Cypriots, GC and TC, will be in the south, settlers and their offspring will be in the north.

In effect we are setting the stage for round three of the Cyprus problem, not solving it.

[AWE]

Viewpoint wrote:

"You conveniently forget that we represent 50% of the say in any new agreement and without our backing you have no deal...so you should review your attitude as we to not only the GCs have to be persuaded to back a new plan and with the omission of 2 states you will not get the TC backing without which you are back to sqaure one. You belittle and underestimate the TCs but you did the same in 1963 to 1974 and look what happened there."

VP, let’s not try to fool each other, more so your own selves! It is well understood that any solution Talat will be allowed by Turkey and will also be able to reach with Christofias, will go down on you, regardless of whether the majority of you will or will not like it! It will be forced down on you by Turkey, no matter what, for it is Turkey's interests that are and will be at stake. See what happened with Eroglou grey wolf oglan, when he visited Erdogan in Turkey the other day. He told him to shut up, behave and obey, and this is precisely what Turkey will also tell you (TC community) should it realize that you may turn down a deal that Turkey has approved.

You have no voice, you have no independence and you have no free will! You are just a creation of Turkey, and as Turkey had built you, Turkey is able to demolish you within a second of a minute. Your only chance to gain a relative voice and a relative free will is only if a solution in Cyprus will be achieved, and your community returns back to the EU member Republic of Cyprus. And no, there can never be a solution on the basis of a virgin-birth and two founding states! It will only be a solution based on the evolution of the RoC, from a unitary bi-communal state into a federative bi-zonal and bi-communal state. Whether you like it or not, this is the only single international reality, and the only one the whole of the international community understands and accepts. Stop wasting your time and energy on unfeasible, meaningless and diluted ideas.

I will need to concur with the above and also state that many things are starting to change. Since the TCs are a minority within their bogus "TRNC", they will not be the one's making any decision. Turkey holds the reigns firmly within her hands and as she closes more EU chapters in the future, there will be more and more incentive for her to reform and also solve the Cyprus Problem in accordance with what is already being discussed - A BBF RoC with one citizenship, one sovereignty and one international persona and not a virgin birth concept dished out to the Turkish Media in order to appease Turkey's rampant nationalists.

I also would like to add that Turkey will soon be pressured to make many concessions in order to become an EU member state. It is not just Turkey's interests at stake here. The interests of a much larger and more powerful superpower are also at stake, and so the pressure will be enormous.

This assume that France, Germany, Austria or others don't veto Turkish membership...

I seriously doubt that France, Austria and Germany will have much say in the matter.

As a matter of fact, these countries are predominately objecting to EU accession due to the potential mass migration from Turkey to other more affluent nations such as their own. This will be circumvented with restrictions until Turkey eventually improves its economic output.

I agree they are all looking at vetoing Turkish membership for domestic reasons, but to say that 2 of the most important countries in the EU wont have much say on Turkish membership is somewhat naive, they will have a lot of say and if they veto it the veto is still a veto even of the rest of the EU disagree. I agree that their are likely to be some temporary restrictions at Turkish point of entry to the EU - Spain, Romania and others had/have them - but these will be lifted in time, given that Turkish per capita GDP is above both Bulgaria and Romania I am not convinced that the restrictions following membership will be there anyway especially as it will be 10 years before Turkey is ready to join the anyway.

The question Cyprus needs to answer is do they want Turkey in the EU and a united Cyprus with all the internal migration the entails (Anatolia is a very short flight away) or out and have the island divided but no Turks coming to live in the RoC?

We I don't think they intend on vetoing Turkey's EU admission. If anything, I believe they would try and set up The Republic of Cyprus to do this deed for them, for purely their very own domestic issues and nothing else.

These domestic issues we have both referred to, is the fear of mass migration and some of it can also be attributed to racism and fear of the unknown. Allowing an Islamic Country of some 75 million, is bound to cause some controversy in a predominately christian EU. This is to be expected and should be no surprise to anyone.

However, these fears will in all likelihood be circumvented by not allowing Turkish EU citizens the right of migration for a period of let's say 50 years. After that, I doubt whether there will be many Turks wanting to migrate elsewhere, as their affluence will improve and the gap between Turks and the more affluent French and Germans would be diminished.

Absolutely, fear of the mass migration and or competition for jobs as well as weighing of the voting system and the loss of influence that France and Germany will face are 2 divers of possible vetoes.

But you are right neither country can be seen to veto Turkish membership should Turkey meet all the criteria.

Your suggestion of a 50 year non-migration moratorium is likely to be seen by the Turks a a Privileged Partnership or worse, given that the EU is not even that old or will be then, it is likely to be rejected by Turkey and so Cyprus will remain divided.

This brings me back to my main point, when Turkey is offered full EU membership, assuming she meets all requirements, then she will leave Cyprus anything less and she will not - non-migration for 50 years in 10 years time means Cyprus divided until about 2069 so imagine what the demographic of he North will be like then.

[Icarus]

Viewpoint wrote:

"You conveniently forget that we represent 50% of the say in any new agreement and without our backing you have no deal...so you should review your attitude as we to not only the GCs have to be persuaded to back a new plan and with the omission of 2 states you will not get the TC backing without which you are back to sqaure one. You belittle and underestimate the TCs but you did the same in 1963 to 1974 and look what happened there."

VP, let’s not try to fool each other, more so your own selves! It is well understood that any solution Talat will be allowed by Turkey and will also be able to reach with Christofias, will go down on you, regardless of whether the majority of you will or will not like it! It will be forced down on you by Turkey, no matter what, for it is Turkey's interests that are and will be at stake. See what happened with Eroglou grey wolf oglan, when he visited Erdogan in Turkey the other day. He told him to shut up, behave and obey, and this is precisely what Turkey will also tell you (TC community) should it realize that you may turn down a deal that Turkey has approved.

You have no voice, you have no independence and you have no free will! You are just a creation of Turkey, and as Turkey had built you, Turkey is able to demolish you within a second of a minute. Your only chance to gain a relative voice and a relative free will is only if a solution in Cyprus will be achieved, and your community returns back to the EU member Republic of Cyprus. And no, there can never be a solution on the basis of a virgin-birth and two founding states! It will only be a solution based on the evolution of the RoC, from a unitary bi-communal state into a federative bi-zonal and bi-communal state. Whether you like it or not, this is the only single international reality, and the only one the whole of the international community understands and accepts. Stop wasting your time and energy on unfeasible, meaningless and diluted ideas.

I will need to concur with the above and also state that many things are starting to change. Since the TCs are a minority within their bogus "TRNC", they will not be the one's making any decision. Turkey holds the reigns firmly within her hands and as she closes more EU chapters in the future, there will be more and more incentive for her to reform and also solve the Cyprus Problem in accordance with what is already being discussed - A BBF RoC with one citizenship, one sovereignty and one international persona and not a virgin birth concept dished out to the Turkish Media in order to appease Turkey's rampant nationalists.

I also would like to add that Turkey will soon be pressured to make many concessions in order to become an EU member state. It is not just Turkey's interests at stake here. The interests of a much larger and more powerful superpower are also at stake, and so the pressure will be enormous.

This assume that France, Germany, Austria or others don't veto Turkish membership...

I seriously doubt that France, Austria and Germany will have much say in the matter.

As a matter of fact, these countries are predominately objecting to EU accession due to the potential mass migration from Turkey to other more affluent nations such as their own. This will be circumvented with restrictions until Turkey eventually improves its economic output.

I agree they are all looking at vetoing Turkish membership for domestic reasons, but to say that 2 of the most important countries in the EU wont have much say on Turkish membership is somewhat naive, they will have a lot of say and if they veto it the veto is still a veto even of the rest of the EU disagree. I agree that their are likely to be some temporary restrictions at Turkish point of entry to the EU - Spain, Romania and others had/have them - but these will be lifted in time, given that Turkish per capita GDP is above both Bulgaria and Romania I am not convinced that the restrictions following membership will be there anyway especially as it will be 10 years before Turkey is ready to join the anyway.

The question Cyprus needs to answer is do they want Turkey in the EU and a united Cyprus with all the internal migration the entails (Anatolia is a very short flight away) or out and have the island divided but no Turks coming to live in the RoC?

We I don't think they intend on vetoing Turkey's EU admission. If anything, I believe they would try and set up The Republic of Cyprus to do this deed for them, for purely their very own domestic issues and nothing else.

These domestic issues we have both referred to, is the fear of mass migration and some of it can also be attributed to racism and fear of the unknown. Allowing an Islamic Country of some 75 million, is bound to cause some controversy in a predominately christian EU. This is to be expected and should be no surprise to anyone.

However, these fears will in all likelihood be circumvented by not allowing Turkish EU citizens the right of migration for a period of let's say 50 years. After that, I doubt whether there will be many Turks wanting to migrate elsewhere, as their affluence will improve and the gap between Turks and the more affluent French and Germans would be diminished.

Absolutely, fear of the mass migration and or competition for jobs as well as weighing of the voting system and the loss of influence that France and Germany will face are 2 divers of possible vetoes.

But you are right neither country can be seen to veto Turkish membership should Turkey meet all the criteria.

Your suggestion of a 50 year non-migration moratorium is likely to be seen by the Turks a a Privileged Partnership or worse, given that the EU is not even that old or will be then, it is likely to be rejected by Turkey and so Cyprus will remain divided.

This brings me back to my main point, when Turkey is offered full EU membership, assuming she meets all requirements, then she will leave Cyprus anything less and she will not - non-migration for 50 years in 10 years time means Cyprus divided until about 2069 so imagine what the demographic of he North will be like then.

Having a moratorium on migration is not Privileged Partnership. A privileged partnership will encompass many more restrictions than just a moratorium on migration.

I am certain Turkey won't see this as a problem and will probably see it as a very small price to pay in light of all the other benefits and privileges.

And the moratorium need not be 50 years. It may be substantially less than that. It could be as little as 10 years. Either way, a balance will be found and Turkey will become an EU member only after there is a solution to the Cyprus Question.

[AWE]

Absolutely, fear of the mass migration and or competition for jobs as well as weighing of the voting system and the loss of influence that France and Germany will face are 2 divers of possible vetoes.

But you are right neither country can be seen to veto Turkish membership should Turkey meet all the criteria.

Your suggestion of a 50 year non-migration moratorium is likely to be seen by the Turks a a Privileged Partnership or worse, given that the EU is not even that old or will be then, it is likely to be rejected by Turkey and so Cyprus will remain divided.

This brings me back to my main point, when Turkey is offered full EU membership, assuming she meets all requirements, then she will leave Cyprus anything less and she will not - non-migration for 50 years in 10 years time means Cyprus divided until about 2069 so imagine what the demographic of he North will be like then.

Having a moratorium on migration is not Privileged Partnership. A privileged partnership will encompass many more restrictions than just a moratorium on migration.

I am certain Turkey won't see this as a problem and will probably see it as a very small price to pay in light of all the other benefits and privileges.

And the moratorium need not be 50 years. It may be substantially less than that. It could be as little as 10 years. Either way, a balance will be found and Turkey will become an EU member only after there is a solution to the Cyprus Question.[/quote]

A 50 year moratorium might be seen as PP but 10 years unlikely. But this still means that Turkey must be offered full membership once the Cyp Prob is solved - Cyprus just has to hope that France among other agrees with this...

[Viewpoint]

So dumb-dumb, your going to have a Turkish Cypriot state with mostly Greek Cypriot land ownership / inhabitants??

Look here you scum, do you know all the ethnic origins of those in the state of Wisconsin? or does it really matter?

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint wrote:

"You conveniently forget that we represent 50% of the say in any new agreement and without our backing you have no deal...so you should review your attitude as we to not only the GCs have to be persuaded to back a new plan and with the omission of 2 states you will not get the TC backing without which you are back to sqaure one. You belittle and underestimate the TCs but you did the same in 1963 to 1974 and look what happened there."

VP, let’s not try to fool each other, more so your own selves! It is well understood that any solution Talat will be allowed by Turkey and will also be able to reach with Christofias, will go down on you, regardless of whether the majority of you will or will not like it! It will be forced down on you by Turkey, no matter what, for it is Turkey's interests that are and will be at stake. See what happened with Eroglou grey wolf oglan, when he visited Erdogan in Turkey the other day. He told him to shut up, behave and obey, and this is precisely what Turkey will also tell you (TC community) should it realize that you may turn down a deal that Turkey has approved.

You have no voice, you have no independence and you have no free will! You are just a creation of Turkey, and as Turkey had built you, Turkey is able to demolish you within a second of a minute. Your only chance to gain a relative voice and a relative free will is only if a solution in Cyprus will be achieved, and your community returns back to the EU member Republic of Cyprus. And no, there can never be a solution on the basis of a virgin-birth and two founding states! It will only be a solution based on the evolution of the RoC, from a unitary bi-communal state into a federative bi-zonal and bi-communal state. Whether you like it or not, this is the only single international reality, and the only one the whole of the international community understands and accepts. Stop wasting your time and energy on unfeasible, meaningless and diluted ideas.

I will need to concur with the above and also state that many things are starting to change. Since the TCs are a minority within their bogus "TRNC", they will not be the one's making any decision. Turkey holds the reigns firmly within her hands, and as she closes more EU chapters in the future, there will be more and more incentive for her to reform and also solve the Cyprus Problem in accordance with what is already being discussed - A BBF RoC with one citizenship, one sovereignty and one international persona and not a virgin birth concept dished out to the Turkish Media in order to appease Turkey's rampant nationalists.

How many chapters has Turkey actually closed? how many ports has she opened? you are only deluding yourselves the leverage you sold your souls for no longer works.

Don't be so shortsighted!

Turkey has closed one chapter and is about to close another.

The December Progress assessment will be quite damning of Turkey, and things should gather pace from there. You are deluding yourself to think that the industrialised world will forego Cypriot Oil and Gas resources so that Turkey can still maintain its occupation.

In the end, Turkey will face reality. The TCs already are facing the reality that they have lost their say and influence. If only you were all much wiser and looked beyond the short term cash influx of selling stolen properties.

1 chapter in 5 years, you do the maths....34 x 5 another 170 years and you just might have some leverage.

What will it take for you to see how wrong you really are when in December the EU skirt around the Turkish issues and declare the steps that need to be taken extending the time period..the EU just like the "RoC" has no back bone and is all talk..lets see if they can make Turkey do what they want...Turkey will firstly ask the EU to make good on their own promises and then take the necessary steps to fulfill her own.

You appear to be the one who needs to wake up if Turkey backs what we believe then she is our voice and we have no problem with that, you appear to be more concerned than we do.

[Get Real!]

If I were a TC with land in Limassol, I would never want to let it go for some land in any part of the TRNC. The chances are that this will be the general attitude of most TCs simply because money talks. Christofias and Talat can agree on anything they like, the people will pursue their best financial interests.

Land exchange can never solve the land issue unless you ignore ¾ of Greek Cypriot refugees and call it a solution as TC refugees are only a quarter in number.

[Byron]

For Turkey to join the EU all member states must give its approval. Majority voting has not yet been introduced on such important legislation. When one founder member France is openly against Turkish membership and another Italy ( Lega Party ) last week during Euro Elections stated the same confirms that it will be very difficult for Turkey to join the EU. France and Italy are protecting their own interests not that of ROC.

Therefore, Turkey will continue to stall on finding a solution for Cyprus because they know the final result .

You are now stating the obvious.

Opposition to Turkey's EU accession is easily circumvented. When other's start throwing their weight around (Who are not even EU members btw), then you will see the Viva Le Francais back flip of the century. You will never see so many French back flips and retreats since WW2....

It is not just the French you need to worry about, all EU members are practically anti Turkey joining the EU and that is a fact. It is better you stay in your own backyard.