Cyprus-Forum.com

[detailer]

In practice the comparison is the same. If you do not like the comparison with blacks (I didn’t specify it as such any way,) then think of the Jewish or the Irish communities instead. From a social, demographic and historical perspective, the comparison or the example of the USA that I gave is perfectly analogous

I dont't really understand what do you mean by the "practice" and historical, demographic, social perspectives. These kinds of comparisions are mostly subjective. So in your "practice", the cases can be same but they are very different for me. Therefore we need to find some kind of objective criteria to compare. Blacks have never had a kind partnership agreement in USA as far as i know like TC in Cyprus and this makes two cases completely irrelevant.

You are taking a zero sum approach when referring to the 1960 “agreements,” with the aim of justifying separate ownership and self-determination rights. Yes, it is correct that the two communities were separated in terms of exercising their political rights. Perhaps this was the main source of most of our problems though. Anyhow, if you want to argue on that basis, I may as well say that this was not something we agreed upon but rather something that was imposed on us, in the same sense that the Ottoman and British colonisation were imposed in the past.

Could you politely tell me why the you put the 1960 agreements in quote? Is it because they are invalid in law or you don't like them?

No, Kifeas, main reason of the problems was not about different political rights but GC's intolerance to that. Obviously, 1960 agreements don't imply self-determination or partition but they epmphasize an equilibrium in Cyprus giving strong political powers to TC.

When GC authorities decided to change this equilibrium in 1963 by applying military pressure on TC, noone has actually given them any gurantee that the change in the equilibrium will be in the way they want. When you start to play with an equilibrium, you are supposed to know that the things can turn against you. Given that TC rights given by 1960 agrreements have been severely disrespected in the past and even disrespected today as we see in this forum, TC are absolutrely right in searching alternative ways to protect their rights. In this sense, partition and similar solutions are debatable.

[Kifeas]

Could you politely tell me why the you put the 1960 agreements in quote? Is it because they are invalid in law or you don't like them?

No, Kifeas, main reason of the problems was not about different political rights but GC's intolerance to that. Obviously, 1960 agreements don't imply self-determination or partition but they epmphasize an equilibrium in Cyprus giving strong political powers to TC.

When GC authorities decided to change this equilibrium in 1963 by applying military pressure on TC, noone has actually given them any gurantee that the change in the equilibrium will be in the way they want. When you start to play with an equilibrium, you are supposed to know that the things can turn against you. Given that TC rights given by 1960 agrreements have been severely disrespected in the past and even disrespected today as we see in this forum, TC are absolutrely right in searching alternative ways to protect their rights. In this sense, partition and similar solutions are debatable.

I put them in brackets because the 1960 “agreements” were not so much of an agreement but rather more of an imposition. Only for this reason! The two communities were not parties in any negotiations between them, nor the end results were approved by the people in the form of a referendum which would have properly legitimise them.

Can you tell us where else in the world such a kind of "equilibrium" has ever been utilised? We have many examples of people in one country composed by more than one community.

[MicAtCyp]

EOKA B was not one of his greatest ideas, but i still have to larn more before i cast my verdict. However what he did do for cyprus was great and as greek cypriots we should be thankfull.

Cyprus is not only the GCs.You should ask the opinion of the TCs too. What you said is similar to the argument of the Tcs that the 1974 invasion was a peace operation! Grivas can not be labeled an archangel of freedom not at all.

I read part of Grivas book, knowing how military people think and express themselves, I find everything in there in line with that mentality.I understand you live in England and you never served in the army, so perhaps this explains your views. Still however they only project ignorance. I ve seen similar ignorance from TCs in this forum, but since now I am writing to you, my advice is try to improve yourself.

*********************

Well that is just shocking, so thats like saying you think grivas is cool but i am in power and hence have you killed for your different opinion.

That's what happens when someone watches a movie (or reads a book) where the central hero kills. Every killing is justified and "cool". Simply because is done by the central hero.

*********************

Demetriou,

I suggest you learn what Grivas was doing during WWII in Greece, whom he was aligned with, and who he was serving.You will be schocked!

[MicAtCyp]

The more I think this through, even a bi-zonal, bi-federal solution is open to corruption.

My friend when I said "burn" that was an alternative to your question "what would you do sell,rent, exchange your property?".I meant I would burn it!! I knew I was vague however I put it down in continuation of my argument that one line posts kill or distort the discussions.

Anyway your analysis is interesting however I don't agree because that would be clear discrimination that is not allowed in the EU.(I mean the politicians favouring the majority on the expense of the minority).Furthermore don't forget that in case of a federation both states will depend on the Central state.

Anyway since you are a rather new member in this forum notice my prefered solution is a Unitary State in which bizonality will derive from the existing situation after exchanging,buying selling of properties (i.e not through strict agreement-not with strict geographical borders) and in which the Political power will be shared in a similar manner like the 1960 agreements and where the Tcs will have their own government employees at the places where they will live.

[cannedmoose]

Demetriou,

I suggest you learn what Grivas was doing during WWII in Greece, whom he was aligned with, and who he was serving.You will be schocked!

Demetre, he means this:

During the Axis occupation of Greece in World War II, Grivas created the organisation 'X'. In his memoirs he describes it as a resistance organisation however the main aim of 'X' was to fight the Communist EAM and ELAS, collaborating with the Axis regime in order to achieve that.

What a great patriot he was... putting his fanatic hatred of Communism above the independence of his nation... sadly enough, he did this twice too...

[MicAtCyp]

Yes, I completely agree with you first time that Cyprus and Turkey cases are not comparable, if you read the topic carefully you will realise that it is not me but kifeas comparing these two. He is stating that TC is same to kurdish in Turkey or balcks in USA. We are definetely not like them, we are the co-partners in 1960 agreements, with veto rights.

I don't think we agree. When I said they are not comparable I meant you cannot take the case of Cyprus in which the Tcs got rights through an agreement that was imposed on the GCs under conditions of blackmail, to justify the fact that the Kurds in Turkey never got such rights. That's why I said such rights are a product of a political evolution under Democratic conditions.
The case of Cyprus was not that of a Democratic Political evolution, the case of Turkey is not even a Democratic state yet, how can it evolve to anything.

Can you please clarify this one?

I can only tell you what I saw in Euronews. More than 20 policemen present at the funeral dressed in civilian clothing.At some point they started beating everyone with sticks.The camera focused on a white beared man wearing traditional clothing, almost 80 years old be beaten by those guys.Why? What did he do? Where else in the world 20 Policemen hide among the croud in a funeral? To protect who, the dead man? All these sound very strange to me, and it seems to me Turkey is not much different than a Police State similar to that of Chaoushesku in Roumania. If the police needs to be present somewhere they should be in uniform, not hide behind civilian clothing and black cravates....

Thanks for declairing your opinion about 60 agreements. Well, previously some GC leadership thougt that we dont deserve that rights, they tried to take them back, then we suffered 63-74 and you suffered in 74. Is this not enough for you?

By saying given rights I meant given by the British to the TCs while the GCs where blackmailed to either sign or the British would partition the island. So my opinion does not differ from that of the other GCs. I beleive the reason we suffered is because we wanted Enosis and you wanted Taksim. If those 2 silly ideas were out I beleive even the 1960 agreement would eventually evolve democratically and mature politically to what they should be. Do you think the clause for 30% TC employees in the Government would last for long? In the end yes I beleive most of your overinflated rights would eventually go to normal.

What else do you want to happen so that this "political-evolution" is complete?

The Political evolution will start maturing 20-40 years after an agreed solution.We need an agreed solution first.

[MicAtCyp]

But one thing I don't agree with you, MicAtCyp, is that you say illiterate to masses in Turkey. I live in Switzerland for 5 years now, after living in Turkey for 10 years. I slowly adapted to the international community and separated myself from the ideas in Turkey. But not everybody has that chance I have. Not everybody can get away and see what it is like from an international view. It would be very unfair to say illiterate to those people. I hope you understand that.

OK I see your point. Perhaps the word "illeterate" was too hard and overgeneralised, I apologise for that. You know in this forum there are a lot of people from Turkey, most of them are very open minded. It makes me wonder what goes on in Turkey and you have so much diversity among your people there? Anyway I agree with your objection.

[demetriou_74]

if anybody can find any of my post saying that grivas was good for greece then fair enough. i only care about what he did for cyprus.

its not who you are on the inside or on the outside, its what you do that difines you...

[detailer]

MitatCyp wrote:

I don't think we agree. When I said they are not comparable I meant you cannot take the case of Cyprus in which the Tcs got rights through an agreement that was imposed on the GCs under conditions of blackmail, to justify the fact that the Kurds in Turkey never got such rights. That's why I said such rights are a product of a political evolution under Democratic conditions.
The case of Cyprus was not that of a Democratic Political evolution, the case of Turkey is not even a Democratic state yet, how can it evolve to anything.

I dont' still understand what this "political-evolution" means. How come GC got their right of independence from UK then, by which kind of "political-evolution"? With the help of the democratic organisation EOKA in which democratic conditions? They forced UK out of Cyprus because they started to threaten security of U.K in Cyprus and U.K got its bases before losing all of it. My friend, these kinds of rights come with military struggle (maybe with economic sanctions in some cases).

By saying given rights I meant given by the British to the TCs while the GCs where blackmailed to either sign or the British would partition the island. So my opinion does not differ from that of the other GCs. I beleive the reason we suffered is because we wanted Enosis and you wanted Taksim. If those 2 silly ideas were out I beleive even the 1960 agreement would eventually evolve democratically and mature politically to what they should be. Do you think the clause for 30% TC employees in the Government would last for long? In the end yes I beleive most of your overinflated rights would eventually go to normal.

Well, first of all, if GC were not after Enosis, there woudn't be any political/social base for TC to be after Taksim. This "overinflated rights"
issue is again very subjective. Given that what happened to the forced "deflation" in 1963, I can argue that those rights were not enough to protect themselves.

I am repeating myself: when you find a right too much for the other party and try to change it by putting military force, you implicitly accept that you can lose what you have as well. Imagine Ottomans in WW1, they wanted to get more land, in the end they accepted foreign rule in Istanbul.

[Turkey (( *]

I can only tell you what I saw in Euronews. More than 20 policemen present at the funeral dressed in civilian clothing.At some point they started beating everyone with sticks.The camera focused on a white beared man wearing traditional clothing, almost 80 years old be beaten by those guys.Why? What did he do? Where else in the world 20 Policemen hide among the croud in a funeral? To protect who, the dead man? All these sound very strange to me, and it seems to me Turkey is not much different than a Police State similar to that of Chaoushesku in Roumania. If the police needs to be present somewhere they should be in uniform, not hide behind civilian clothing and black cravates....

Please MicAtCyp, don't tell me thisa doesn't happen in Europe! Several months ago it came out in the major Turkish newspaper(Milliyet) that some demonstrators in France were beaten by sticks by the police force! These cops may not be in civil clothing, but the thing they did was the same. And I really don't think a bomber or a guilty criminal would stay where he is after seeing the police controlling the area, you don't agree??