The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


All Greece

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby DT. » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:37 am

The Cypriot wrote:
Oracle wrote:
The Cypriot wrote: It appears Greece, unilaterally, is guilty as charged for the Cyprus debacle which lead to Turkey's invasion.


Who charged Greece?

To date, only the Junta is guilty as charged .... not Greece!


In 1974 the Junta controlled Greece. But I take your point. Presumably you'd agree in turn that not all Turks are guilty for Turkey's crimes in Cyprus either. Although some of your posts might give that impression.


The junta was guilty of an event in 1974. Lets call it a coup.
Turkey is guilty of an event as well. Lets call it an invasion.

The difference is that Turkey is also guilty of a continous event. Lets call it an occupation

Now if you don't know the difference between an event that lasted 8 days by a dictatorship of a country and an event that carries on till today which has spanned many "democratically" elected governments of Turkey...you're a bigger meatball than I thought you were.
User avatar
DT.
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12684
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:34 pm
Location: Lefkosia

Postby Oracle » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:53 am

Get Real! wrote:Come now Oracle, do not evade the question...

Do you acknowledge Greek "mergers" like those with Slavs and later with Turks?

:lol:


I am not avoiding anything ... but you are incapable of rationalising. To you it is all or nothing.
If one couple "merged" than the whole culture was a myth or had no influence or did not have others who could still claim being of one descendency or another.

Yet you apply a different set of values to Choirokitians.

With all the evidence of so many friendly Greek exchanges over thousands of years between the Greeks of mainland Greece, Asia minor Greeks, etc and Cypriots, you still deny that today's indigenous Cypriots are as much Greek if not more so, than they are Choirokitian.

I am not trivialising Choirokitians, I am just respecting their means of survival, through Greeks, and their descendants' right to recognise their Greekness, as much as, possibly, some vestiges of Choirokitianism.

That doesn't change their nativeness because the population grew enough (between let's say Choirokitians and Greeks ), over the thousands of years that Cyprus became a recorded country. So, those are the indigenous people, the earliest arrivals to establish a recognisable culture. There just weren't enough people around then for total isolation without extinction.

Even the Aborigines of Australia mixed with Maoris and Polynesians etc. Even the North American Indians shared common ancestry with Inuits and even some Asian groups.

So stop imposing unreasonable, illogical mock situations for Cyprus just because you think the Turks will leave Cyprus.

We have far more realistic options using our allies in the EU ... but that's too boring and reasonable for you! :roll:

I don't intend to burn out trying to get through to you; I have too many calls on my time ... but I would like to see some interesting debate without setting out to prove the unprovable (history) with the wildest sources of "evidence" imaginable ... the sort of trash students are warned about before doing even an "A" Level essay ....
User avatar
Oracle
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 23507
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:13 am
Location: Anywhere but...

Postby Dr J » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:46 am

You already know the answer to these VERY RECENT EVENTS so don't ask stupid questions. However, the Greek mythological notion that Cypriots somehow "vanished" and at around 1200BC all these "Greeks" came and settled here is TOTALLY BASELESS, as the texts themselves who carry such nonsense admit that it's just a STORY! (And a dumb one at that)


I think Oracle just gave an answer to that. So what trait of culture survived that is recognisable as Choirokitian? You STILL cant give me a single example.

What makes the ancient [insert any people] different to the [insert any people] of today? Whatever a few thousand millenniums would bring along I'd say...


The Greeks can trace make the links between their language and art back thousands of years. How about the Choirokitians?
User avatar
Dr J
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:10 am

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:37 pm

Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Come now Oracle, do not evade the question...

Do you acknowledge Greek "mergers" like those with Slavs and later with Turks?

:lol:


I am not avoiding anything ... but you are incapable of rationalising. To you it is all or nothing.
If one couple "merged" than the whole culture was a myth or had no influence or did not have others who could still claim being of one descendency or another.

Yet you apply a different set of values to Choirokitians.

With all the evidence of so many friendly Greek exchanges over thousands of years between the Greeks of mainland Greece, Asia minor Greeks, etc and Cypriots, you still deny that today's indigenous Cypriots are as much Greek if not more so, than they are Choirokitian.

I am not trivialising Choirokitians, I am just respecting their means of survival, through Greeks, and their descendants' right to recognise their Greekness, as much as, possibly, some vestiges of Choirokitianism.

That doesn't change their nativeness because the population grew enough (between let's say Choirokitians and Greeks ), over the thousands of years that Cyprus became a recorded country. So, those are the indigenous people, the earliest arrivals to establish a recognisable culture. There just weren't enough people around then for total isolation without extinction.

Even the Aborigines of Australia mixed with Maoris and Polynesians etc. Even the North American Indians shared common ancestry with Inuits and even some Asian groups.

So stop imposing unreasonable, illogical mock situations for Cyprus just because you think the Turks will leave Cyprus.

We have far more realistic options using our allies in the EU ... but that's too boring and reasonable for you! :roll:

I don't intend to burn out trying to get through to you; I have too many calls on my time ... but I would like to see some interesting debate without setting out to prove the unprovable (history) with the wildest sources of "evidence" imaginable ... the sort of trash students are warned about before doing even an "A" Level essay ....

I was expecting a Boolean answer to a Boolean question but alas... you opted to waste our time with irrelevant drivel I wouldn't read.

Let's start again...

Do you acknowledge Greek "mergers" like those with Slavs and later with Turks?
User avatar
Get Real!
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 48333
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: Nicosia

Postby Oracle » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:47 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Come now Oracle, do not evade the question...

Do you acknowledge Greek "mergers" like those with Slavs and later with Turks?

:lol:


I am not avoiding anything ... but you are incapable of rationalising. To you it is all or nothing.
If one couple "merged" than the whole culture was a myth or had no influence or did not have others who could still claim being of one descendency or another.

Yet you apply a different set of values to Choirokitians.

With all the evidence of so many friendly Greek exchanges over thousands of years between the Greeks of mainland Greece, Asia minor Greeks, etc and Cypriots, you still deny that today's indigenous Cypriots are as much Greek if not more so, than they are Choirokitian.

I am not trivialising Choirokitians, I am just respecting their means of survival, through Greeks, and their descendants' right to recognise their Greekness, as much as, possibly, some vestiges of Choirokitianism.

That doesn't change their nativeness because the population grew enough (between let's say Choirokitians and Greeks ), over the thousands of years that Cyprus became a recorded country. So, those are the indigenous people, the earliest arrivals to establish a recognisable culture. There just weren't enough people around then for total isolation without extinction.

Even the Aborigines of Australia mixed with Maoris and Polynesians etc. Even the North American Indians shared common ancestry with Inuits and even some Asian groups.

So stop imposing unreasonable, illogical mock situations for Cyprus just because you think the Turks will leave Cyprus.

We have far more realistic options using our allies in the EU ... but that's too boring and reasonable for you! :roll:

I don't intend to burn out trying to get through to you; I have too many calls on my time ... but I would like to see some interesting debate without setting out to prove the unprovable (history) with the wildest sources of "evidence" imaginable ... the sort of trash students are warned about before doing even an "A" Level essay ....

I was expecting a Boolean answer to a Boolean question but alas... you opted to waste our time with irrelevant drivel I wouldn't read.

Let's start again...

Do you acknowledge Greek "mergers" like those with Slavs and later with Turks?


"Mergers" ... I don't know of any! So what?

I don't understand where any such "merger" fits in to you saying the Byzantine empire was only Roman, that Cypriot Byzantine Icons are "Irrelevant bollocks", that Greek influences are Myth etc etc.

Now, do you acknowledge that you haven't got a clue about handling historical sources?
User avatar
Oracle
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 23507
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:13 am
Location: Anywhere but...

Postby EPSILON » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:56 pm

Firstly convist them that their culture/rutes are not related to Greece or generally to Hellenism./.
Secondly convist them that they are a separate Ethnos (Cypriots).
Third convist them that all their problems are created by Greece or their previous relation with anything Hellenic.

Then give them the Annan plan - they will just sign it.
User avatar
EPSILON
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2851
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: ATHENS

Postby The Cypriot » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:09 pm

DT. wrote:
The Cypriot wrote:
Oracle wrote:
The Cypriot wrote: It appears Greece, unilaterally, is guilty as charged for the Cyprus debacle which lead to Turkey's invasion.


Who charged Greece?

To date, only the Junta is guilty as charged .... not Greece!


In 1974 the Junta controlled Greece. But I take your point. Presumably you'd agree in turn that not all Turks are guilty for Turkey's crimes in Cyprus either. Although some of your posts might give that impression.


The junta was guilty of an event in 1974. Lets call it a coup.
Turkey is guilty of an event as well. Lets call it an invasion.

The difference is that Turkey is also guilty of a continous event. Lets call it an occupation

Now if you don't know the difference between an event that lasted 8 days by a dictatorship of a country and an event that carries on till today which has spanned many "democratically" elected governments of Turkey...you're a bigger meatball than I thought you were.



I do know the difference between the one off coup and the continuing occupation. I have been extremely critical of Turkey and its actions in Cyprus. I've demonstrated this on the Forum on a number of occasions. Any criticism I also make of Greece and its actions, and Greek extremism, gives the condemnation of Turkey even greater resonance, in my opinion.

•••

If we were at Kintergarden together I'd punch you on the nose right now - when you were least expecting it.

I'd happily take the detention, as well as any strong words of condemnation from the head mistress for my troubles. I have an inkling you'd be one of her pets.

My parents would be called in and told, "young Cypriot is normally such a docile child, we just don't know what's come over him".

The meatball would remain silent, not wanting to create any more of a scene. But he'd know the reasons why he'd suddenly felt a need to lash out; and so would the goofball with the bloody nose.
User avatar
The Cypriot
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:27 pm

Postby YFred » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:19 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
DT. wrote:
The Cypriot wrote:
Oracle wrote:
The Cypriot wrote: It appears Greece, unilaterally, is guilty as charged for the Cyprus debacle which lead to Turkey's invasion.


Who charged Greece?

To date, only the Junta is guilty as charged .... not Greece!


In 1974 the Junta controlled Greece. But I take your point. Presumably you'd agree in turn that not all Turks are guilty for Turkey's crimes in Cyprus either. Although some of your posts might give that impression.


The junta was guilty of an event in 1974. Lets call it a coup.
Turkey is guilty of an event as well. Lets call it an invasion.

The difference is that Turkey is also guilty of a continous event. Lets call it an occupation

Now if you don't know the difference between an event that lasted 8 days by a dictatorship of a country and an event that carries on till today which has spanned many "democratically" elected governments of Turkey...you're a bigger meatball than I thought you were.



I do know the difference between the one off coup and the continuing occupation. I have been extremely critical of Turkey and its actions in Cyprus. I've demonstrated this on the Forum on a number of occasions. Any criticism I also make of Greece and its actions, and Greek extremism, gives the condemnation of Turkey even greater resonance, in my opinion.

•••

If we were at Kintergarden together I'd punch you on the nose right now - when you were least expecting it.

I'd happily take the detention, as well as any strong words of condemnation from the head mistress for my troubles. I have an inkling you'd be one of her pets.

My parents would be called in and told, "young Cypriot is normally such a docile child, we just don't know what's come over him".

The meatball would remain silent, not wanting to create any more of a scene. But he'd know the reasons why he'd suddenly felt a need to lash out; and so would the goofball with the bloody nose.

Don't get too upset by DT Cypriot, he has a habit of winding people up to no end. He is much worse when he’s had a few bears and his mates are around watching football.

He thinks if the RoC just sits tight and does not negotiate sooner or later Turkey will pull out of Cyprus. You'd think that the likes of him after waiting for 35 years would twig that it is unlikely to produce results.

But no, they will continue to wait for 35 thousand years and it should sort itself out by then.
User avatar
YFred
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12100
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:22 am
Location: Lurucina-Upon-Thames

Postby DT. » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:27 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
DT. wrote:
The Cypriot wrote:
Oracle wrote:
The Cypriot wrote: It appears Greece, unilaterally, is guilty as charged for the Cyprus debacle which lead to Turkey's invasion.


Who charged Greece?

To date, only the Junta is guilty as charged .... not Greece!


In 1974 the Junta controlled Greece. But I take your point. Presumably you'd agree in turn that not all Turks are guilty for Turkey's crimes in Cyprus either. Although some of your posts might give that impression.


The junta was guilty of an event in 1974. Lets call it a coup.
Turkey is guilty of an event as well. Lets call it an invasion.

The difference is that Turkey is also guilty of a continous event. Lets call it an occupation

Now if you don't know the difference between an event that lasted 8 days by a dictatorship of a country and an event that carries on till today which has spanned many "democratically" elected governments of Turkey...you're a bigger meatball than I thought you were.



I do know the difference between the one off coup and the continuing occupation. I have been extremely critical of Turkey and its actions in Cyprus. I've demonstrated this on the Forum on a number of occasions. Any criticism I also make of Greece and its actions, and Greek extremism, gives the condemnation of Turkey even greater resonance, in my opinion.

•••

If we were at Kintergarden together I'd punch you on the nose right now - when you were least expecting it.

I'd happily take the detention, as well as any strong words of condemnation from the head mistress for my troubles. I have an inkling you'd be one of her pets.

My parents would be called in and told, "young Cypriot is normally such a docile child, we just don't know what's come over him".

The meatball would remain silent, not wanting to create any more of a scene. But he'd know the reasons why he'd suddenly felt a need to lash out; and so would the goofball with the bloody nose.


You're wrong in your opinion. This need to balance things out simply dilutes the ongoing crime committed against Cyprus by Turkey.

I'd like you to perform an exercise for me now. i want you to list all the crimes committed by Turkey against Cyprus today, and write them down on a separate piece of paper for each of the days that Turkey has been committing them (you will need approximately 12800 pages). I then want you to do the same with Greece and mulitply the crimes Greece committed by the number of days.

Now i want you to compare these 2 lists and add an actual weight of death and misery each of these crimes caused the people of Cyprus. (multiple of 10 for each life taken and missing person and multiple of 5 for each home taken)

Now after you've added the crime weight factor and the number of days this has gone on for i want you to...( now pay attention this is the important part) shove both these lists up your arse and come back and tell me which one hurt you the most.

When you're done with all that you may feel free to come back and play the fair and impartial free thinker that you really are.

As for wanting to punch me in the nose fantasy, well what can I say. Whatever gets you through your day mate.
User avatar
DT.
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12684
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:34 pm
Location: Lefkosia

Postby The Cypriot » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:36 pm

Oracle wrote:
The Junta was a dictatorship imposed on the Greek people and not elected by them, nor enjoying any support from them.

On the other hand, Ecevit was elected, much loved and fully supported for his actions of invading Cyprus ....

Now, do you appreciate the difference?


Yes. Do you want me to hate each and every Turk, like yialousa does? Even the ones who support Cyprus's independence?

Oracle wrote:Or are you going to stumble your way through another absurd claim


What absurd claim have I made?

Oracle wrote: to carry on hating our main ally and mitigating Turkey's responsibilities?


I don't hate 'our main ally'. I hate extreme nationalism and its disastrous effects; and in Cyprus that was and is Greek and Turkish nationalism. And when have I once tried to mitigate Turkey's responsibilities?
User avatar
The Cypriot
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:27 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest