Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

Piratis, you really should read more carefully. I didn't say that the British were not responsible for some of Cyprus' predicament, my dispute is with this book's apparent assertion that Britain was responsible (and maliciously so) for inciting, developing and continuing the conflict between GC and TC for its own ends. To claim this abdicates any responsibility from the lunatics that decided to kill each other for nationalist purposes. To suggest this denies individual human responsibility for ones actions and attributes the intercommunal violence to British stirring alone... it's BS man, pure and simple. In the real world, Britain is culpable, the US is culpable, Greece is culpable, Turkey is culpable and even more so, both communities in Cyprus are culpable for what has happened. True, Cyprus is always going to be manipulated by foreign powers, it's the natural order of international relations, however, Britain didn't pull the trigger in 1963, in 1967 or in 1974...

[metecyp]

True, Cyprus is always going to be manipulated by foreign powers, it's the natural order of international relations, however, Britain didn't pull the trigger in 1963, in 1967 or in 1974...

I agree with you completely. It's a common Cypriot trait not to accept the responsibility for mistakes..

[cannedmoose]

I agree with you completely. It's a common Cypriot trait not to accept the responsibility for mistakes..

No kidding... and I suppose given the number of foreign invaders that have passed through that it's natural that Cypriots do have an insular and persecuted mentality. Hence the attraction of conspiracy theories that many Cypriots tend to cling to as fact. As more Cypriots experience life overseas, it's changing, but it's certainly a trait that isn't attractive or constructive. Unless you're willing to admit your own mistakes, you don't learn anything.

[Piratis]

What I am saying is that when in 1930s and after, long before 1960, the great majority of the inhabitants wanted union with Greece what stopped this from happening was the UK because they wanted to maintain control of the island.

I agree with you completely. It's a common Cypriot trait not to accept the responsibility for mistakes..

It is not like that. The way it is is that others have a percentage of responsibility (I say a huge one, you can argue otherwise) yet the GCs are expected to shoulder the 99% of the loss, with the others either gaining or in the worst case loosing nothing. How about the UK giving part of its own land to Cypriots to cover its own share of responsibility?

You're comparing apples and oranges. First of all, EU is not a country but rather a union. Therefore, union of Bulgaria/Britian with the EU is not the same as the union of Cyprus with Greece. Secondly, EU does not have bad consequences for minorities for the most part. Turks in Bulgaria or blacks in England can only expect their situation to get better with the EU. However, the story was much more different for TCs in Cyprus in 1950s. With the fresh example of Turks in Crete, you couldn't expect TCs to agree that Cyprus being part of Greece would improve their situation.

I don't disagree with what you said in general about Cyprus in 50s. I didn't say that TCs should have wanted union. TCs had the right to demand and get the 100% of their human rights. But we also had the right for union with Greece, just like every colony had the right to choose in a democratic way either independence or union with another country. So the answer should have not been "no" to union. Union could have come after a process that would guarantee that there would be no discrimination against anybody.(if the majority still wanted it)

[cannedmoose]

It is not like that. The way it is is that others have a percentage of responsibility (I say a huge one, you can argue otherwise) yet the GCs are expected to shoulder the 99% of the loss, with the others either gaining or in the worst case loosing nothing. How about the UK giving part of its own land to Cypriots to cover its own share of responsibility?

I agree with you that others have a percentage of responsibility for the current situation. My difference with this book is that it ascribes total responsibility to outsiders, that's my issue. As for your suggestion that the UK gives back part of the SBAs, I'm all in favour of this and always have been. The SBAs are an anachronism and the majority of the land is not used for military purposes anyway. I think it's unrealistic to expect the British bases to simply be removed - we all know their importance and purpose so this just isn't going to happen - but for them to be 'sovereign territory' is unnecessary.

[Piratis]

As for your suggestion that the UK gives back part of the SBAs

Where exactly have I suggested that?

What I said is:

How about the UK giving part of its own land to Cypriots to cover its own share of responsibility?

The military bases that the British occupy in Cyprus are a remainder of colonialism and they do not belong to the UK.

This is why I said that the Greek Cypriots are the ones who are expected to take all the losses. All the rest are gaining (and want to continue to do so) on our loss.

In 1960 you forced our leader to agree to what you wanted. However it is obvious that that no part of Cyprus belongs to the UK and I hope that the colonialists that thing otherwise will get the appropriate response along with the rest that want to gain on our loss.

[cannedmoose]

As for your suggestion that the UK gives back part of the SBAs

Where exactly have I suggested that?

What I said is:

How about the UK giving part of its own land to Cypriots to cover its own share of responsibility?

The military bases that the British occupy in Cyprus are a remainder of colonialism and they do not belong to the UK.

This is why I said that the Greek Cypriots are the ones who are expected to take all the losses. All the rest are gaining (and want to continue to do so) on our loss.

In 1960 you forced our leader to agree to what you wanted. However it is obvious that that no part of Cyprus belongs to the UK and I hope that the colonialists that thing otherwise will get the appropriate response along with the rest that want to gain on our loss.

Sorry Piratis, I misunderstood your original meaning. I'm also sorry to say (and as someone who doesn't support the current 'sovereign' arrangement I mean that sincerely) that legally the SBAs do belong to the UK and do so in perpetuity. I had this discussion with Cypriot friends last night and when you consider the importance of the facilities in the SBAs (not the land itself) to the British - and hence the Echelon - intelligence service you must appreciate that some areas of the SBAs will always be retained by the UK government, unless alternative facilities are found... they are just too important to give up. I'm also sorry to say that Cyprus will have few friends backing them in the attempt to dissolve the SBAs because the intelligence gained from the spy facilities there is shared amongst a large and influential group of states.

Therefore, anachronistic they may be, but I think we'll just all have to get used to their presence because they'll probably be there when you and I are long gone.

I also disagree with your assumption that in 1960 Britain forced Makarios to agree to the Constitutional/Treaty arrangements. A great deal of the responsibility for the creation of this interwoven mess fell to the Greek and Turkish governments who collaborated extensively to draft many of the arrangements that went into the London/Zurich agreements.

[Piratis]

I know the importance of the bases for UK and the Americans. I also know that it would be impossible for them to find similar facilities anywhere else. Other countries that today seem friendly to them in the region (Turkey, some Arabic countries etc) can not offer stability and they have a risk factor way more than Cyprus. Israel will simply not allow anything in its land without full knowledge of its operations.

However the British should not underestimate us, because in a case of an economic or other crisis caused by their policies we can react in a way that will severely damage their operations here.

I also disagree with your assumption that in 1960 Britain forced Makarios to agree to the Constitutional/Treaty arrangements. A great deal of the responsibility for the creation of this interwoven mess fell to the Greek and Turkish governments who collaborated extensively to draft many of the arrangements that went into the London/Zurich agreements.

The British are the ones that prepared the agreements, with the agreement of Greece and Turkey. However the agreement of the Cypriots was never asked, and Makarios was forced to sign given no alternative.

[MicAtCyp]

and hence the Echelon - intelligence service you must appreciate that some areas of the SBAs will always be retained by the UK government, unless alternative facilities are found...

I want to comment on the above part only. Moose, those antenas are cancerous and it wont be long before we see thousands of children at the area nearby getting leukemia.Do you know they transmitt electromagnetic waves in the range of 500,000 W per hour? Compare that to the electromagnetic transmition of a mobile phone to the brain which is only 0.001W.
I beleive those antenas will finally be removed. And without them whats the use of having the Brtitish Bases?

[cannedmoose]

I want to comment on the above part only. Moose, those antenas are cancerous and it wont be long before we see thousands of children at the area nearby getting leukemia.Do you know they transmitt electromagnetic waves in the range of 500,000 W per hour? Compare that to the electromagnetic transmition of a mobile phone to the brain which is only 0.001W.
I beleive those antenas will finally be removed. And without them whats the use of having the Brtitish Bases?

I believe it's currently disputed whether they're cancerous or not. Plus, it would depend on the proximity of the antenna to human beings. They may transmit EM waves at a higher frequency than mobile phones but mobile phones in use are located in direct contact with the person in question.

However, if you are right and they do prove to be, then they should be removed. But isn't it more likely that they would be relocated to another location on the island under UK control. The Cavo Greco outpost would surely be a prime candidate.