Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

All this debate about Icedigger exchange nonsence is of course a load of pollocks.

In the real world those who took a risky gamble will pay a big price for their attempted robbery.

As well as the Nicosia District Court's judgement, there is the "little matter" of some court costs. So far we have the GB High Court costs, one set of GB Appeal Court costs and later this year a second set of Appeal Court costs.

Total, at a guess, of some GBP200,000!

[YFred]

All this debate about Icedigger exchange nomsence is ofcourse a load of pollocks.

In the real world those who took a risky gamble will pay a big price for their attempted robbery.

As well as the Nicosia District Court's judgement, there is the "little matter" of some court costs. So far we have the GB High Court costs, one set of GB Appeal Court costs and layer this year a second set of Appeal Court costs.

Total, at a guess, of some GBP200,000!

Does anyone know what the value of Orams' house was before she sold it?

[ahristos]

i dont understund whow you can buy property
and build withowt... any....documents...
us i know in cyprus ,....land register existe from pre colonials times
so whow can a non owner sale a non own property???

[denizaksulu]

i dont understund whow you can buy property
and build withowt... any....documents...
us i know in cyprus ,....land register existe from pre colonials times
so whow can a non owner sale a non own property???

After 1974, the Northern Authorities declared that ALL Greek Cypriot properties belong to the new Turkish Cypriot Administration. We know its wrong, but that is what happened. In the beginning Turkish Cypriot refugees were housed in these. It was supposed to be a temporary arrangement till a peace agreement was found. and all refugees would return to there homes. This was not forthcoming. Deeds were manufactured and land was parcelled off to the highest bidder or distributed at any whim you can think of. They (the northern Administration) declared themselves the 'legal' authorities so in their eyes these deeds were 'legal'.

As simple as that. Like 'genuine fakes' if you ask me.

[ahristos]

SO if one day island is reunificate and central gov emptys or buys out the xx properties of tc i mean for returne to previus owners i mean pre 1974 owners tc what and whow withowt force can throw out
from others properties i mean from pre 1974 owners and what if some tc have build in gc. land
do someone must to ebolish/destroy them house because land owner is cr c?
i belive in that case better idea is that central gov must to compesate them for the house at list
and give to them oportunity for to borrow money withowt intrest i mean zero...
and if somewhare is states land can be also in use.. for to solve that problem
house and properties are emotional think for meny peoples.. also i show meny webs
of north cyprus properties who are for sale??? but it dont sounds to me good at all
is difficult to say to comers later that i have pay 4 examble 30.000 $/ £ /€
for this nice house to mister Mustapha.... and this are the properties papers from year 1981
but the house is made in 1973...... i belive that who buys property in n cyprus he takes own risc
some properties can be pre 197 owners t-c then all are ok but in case that house or lands
title is not pre 1974 owner papers register ect then there is a big risc
and if buyer knows the full story that is criminal .....action....

[denizaksulu]

SO if one day island is reunificate and central gov emptys or buys out the xx properties of tc i mean for returne to previus owners i mean pre 1974 owners tc what and whow withowt force can throw out
from others properties i mean from pre 1974 owners and what if some tc have build in gc. land
do someone must to ebolish/destroy them house because land owner is cr c?
i belive in that case better idea is that central gov must to compesate them for the house at list
and give to them oportunity for to borrow money withowt intrest i mean zero...
and if somewhare is states land can be also in use.. for to solve that problem
house and properties are emotional think for meny peoples.. also i show meny webs
of north cyprus properties who are for sale??? but it dont sounds to me good at all
is difficult to say to comers later that i have pay 4 examble 30.000 $/ £ /€
for this nice house to mister Mustapha.... and this are the properties papers from year 1981
but the house is made in 1973...... i belive that who buys property in n cyprus he takes own risc
some properties can be pre 197 owners t-c then all are ok but in case that house or lands
title is not pre 1974 owner papers register ect then there is a big risc
and if buyer knows the full story that is criminal .....action....

Depending on what sort of 'Peace deal' they follow, it is envisaged to create a special 'commission' which will sort this mess out. All pre- 1974 deeds are valid. That is where they will start from. It wont be easy. Most owners of these deeds will have passed away. There will be hundreds of thousands of heirs to all these properties. It will be a 'bayram/Panagyri for solicitors. It will take eons to sort out.

[Jerry]

SO if one day island is reunificate and central gov emptys or buys out the xx properties of tc i mean for returne to previus owners i mean pre 1974 owners tc what and whow withowt force can throw out
from others properties i mean from pre 1974 owners and what if some tc have build in gc. land
do someone must to ebolish/destroy them house because land owner is cr c?
i belive in that case better idea is that central gov must to compesate them for the house at list
and give to them oportunity for to borrow money withowt intrest i mean zero...
and if somewhare is states land can be also in use.. for to solve that problem
house and properties are emotional think for meny peoples.. also i show meny webs
of north cyprus properties who are for sale??? but it dont sounds to me good at all
is difficult to say to comers later that i have pay 4 examble 30.000 $/ £ /€
for this nice house to mister Mustapha.... and this are the properties papers from year 1981
but the house is made in 1973...... i belive that who buys property in n cyprus he takes own risc
some properties can be pre 197 owners t-c then all are ok but in case that house or lands
title is not pre 1974 owner papers register ect then there is a big risc
and if buyer knows the full story that is criminal .....action....

Depending on what sort of 'Peace deal' they follow, it is envisaged to create a special 'commission' which will sort this mess out. All pre- 1974 deeds are valid. That is where they will start from. It wont be easy. Most owners of these deeds will have passed away. There will be hundreds of thousands of heirs to all these properties. It will be a 'bayram/Panagyri for solicitors. It will take eons to sort out.

You are right Deniz, we applied nearly two years ago to have our late father's property in the north registered in our names, no deed transfer yet. God knows how long such a transfer will take if and when there is a settlement. The ROC has got to pull its fingers out now if it wants the matter of property ownership to be settled in the future.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu wrote :

Isn't it true, that most of the TC land in the south belongs to our grandparents and parents and not to those of our age group or younger directly, which means that many of these legal owners are either dead or are very old who has not transferred their land titles into their children’s names in the last 35 years, because to do that, they would have had to go to south to take care of business, which many have not done so, because they have been given GC land instead in the north and would be afraid if the "trnc" found out that they were trying to "double dip", because even if the legal TC owners were dead, their children were given equal distribution of GC land in the north against the total land owned by their parents or grandparent in the south. So in effect, many TC's in the north are sitting on GC land that was given against divided (parcelled) TC deeds amongst the children of the original TC owner. If one of the children who has received GC land in the north and then sells it, like to the Orams, that TC may not have land in the south in his name, but in his parents or grandparents name, so in effect, he has no land in the south, at least not until all the children go through probate to sort it out, before most individuals can get part of their share into their names. But they could not do this, because of the "trnc" and the rules set by the RoC.!

This whole land issue is a mess especially for those children/grandchildren who in reality don't have much idea of what land was left in the south and who have no dealings with the land given as exchange in the north.

My father-in-law and his brothers have/had extensive land in Istinjo and were given exchange land in Balikesir/Palekythro. All of the kids are abroad, most in the UK, some in Australia. None have any intention whatsoever of settling in Cyprus. So what will hapeen to this land. Will it just go the the state over time ?

74LB,

It is a bad mess as you stated, because with each passing year, the TC land in the south becomes more difficult to sort out between the families who in principle are the owners since it was once owned by their parents or grandparents if no action was taken in the last 35+ years to officially re-register these TC lands in the new owners ( heirs) names with the land registry in the RoC. But guess what, I believe this problem does not stop only with TC land in the south, because the same problems are also happening in the north with the TC land before ‘74.

Lets just say Ali had 10 dönüms of land in the north pre ‘74 and in ‘84 Ali passes away and his 5 children all got 2 dönüms each and registered it with the land registry in the north. But the north is not recognised, and as far as the RoC is concerned, Ali is still the legal registered owner and non of his kids are if a will was not written and executed in the courts in the south or a probate had taken place, and since the north and south were closed off from each other, my guess is, nothing official has been done with Ali's land in the south, so come a settlement in the future, all these will need to be legally sorted out. Problems will occur if any of Ali's 5 children are now dead and they left a family behind and some of Ali's children or grandchildren has moved off the island to other parts of the world, it will be very difficult to get them all together in the future to all agree with what should be the final outcome of Ali's land, since I do not think the RoC will recognise any of the dealings the "trnc" had done on behalf of Ali's land, specially if Ali's land will fall into being in the south state once BBF is established. To make matters worse, most TC’s have also changed their family names from what the records will show for Ali in the RoC.

I believe the GC's will not have the same problems as the TC's, because they have been passing on their land to their heirs in an official way with the land registry in the south no matter if the GC land was in the south or in the north. As of today, many GC's know what land belongs to which person, even if their grandparents and parents have passed away, because to GC's, they did not believe that the Cyprus problem was solved in ‘74, therefore they took care of business in passing down their land to their families legally, unlike for the TC's who were told that Cyprus problem was over in 74, therefore they did nothing with their land officially with the RoC, whether their land was in the south or the north. It will take many years to sort out the land problems that belong to the TC's, be it be in the north or the south, and the prospects of finding all the descendants of Ali to pass his land to them legally, will be a monumental task, if not impossible.!

[74LB]

Kikapu wrote :

Isn't it true, that most of the TC land in the south belongs to our grandparents and parents and not to those of our age group or younger directly, which means that many of these legal owners are either dead or are very old who has not transferred their land titles into their children’s names in the last 35 years, because to do that, they would have had to go to south to take care of business, which many have not done so, because they have been given GC land instead in the north and would be afraid if the "trnc" found out that they were trying to "double dip", because even if the legal TC owners were dead, their children were given equal distribution of GC land in the north against the total land owned by their parents or grandparent in the south. So in effect, many TC's in the north are sitting on GC land that was given against divided (parcelled) TC deeds amongst the children of the original TC owner. If one of the children who has received GC land in the north and then sells it, like to the Orams, that TC may not have land in the south in his name, but in his parents or grandparents name, so in effect, he has no land in the south, at least not until all the children go through probate to sort it out, before most individuals can get part of their share into their names. But they could not do this, because of the "trnc" and the rules set by the RoC.!

This whole land issue is a mess especially for those children/grandchildren who in reality don't have much idea of what land was left in the south and who have no dealings with the land given as exchange in the north.

My father-in-law and his brothers have/had extensive land in Istinjo and were given exchange land in Balikesir/Palekythro. All of the kids are abroad, most in the UK, some in Australia. None have any intention whatsoever of settling in Cyprus. So what will hapeen to this land. Will it just go the the state over time ?

74LB,

It is a bad mess as you stated, because with each passing year, the TC land in the south becomes more difficult to sort out between the families who in principle are the owners since it was once owned by their parents or grandparents if no action was taken in the last 35+ years to officially re-register these TC lands in the new owners ( heirs) names with the land registry in the RoC. But guess what, I believe this problem does not stop only with TC land in the south, because the same problems are also happening in the north with the TC land before ‘74.

Lets just say Ali had 10 dönüms of land in the north pre ‘74 and in ‘84 Ali passes away and his 5 children all got 2 dönüms each and registered it with the land registry in the north. But the north is not recognised, and as far as the RoC is concerned, Ali is still the legal registered owner and non of his kids are if a will was not written and executed in the courts in the south or a probate had taken place, and since the north and south were closed off from each other, my guess is, nothing official has been done with Ali's land in the south, so come a settlement in the future, all these will need to be legally sorted out. Problems will occur if any of Ali's 5 children are now dead and they left a family behind and some of Ali's children or grandchildren has moved off the island to other parts of the world, it will be very difficult to get them all together in the future to all agree with what should be the final outcome of Ali's land, since I do not think the RoC will recognise any of the dealings the "trnc" had done on behalf of Ali's land, specially if Ali's land will fall into being in the south state once BBF is established. To make matters worse, most TC’s have also changed their family names from what the records will show for Ali in the RoC.

I believe the GC's will not have the same problems as the TC's, because they have been passing on their land to their heirs in an official way with the land registry in the south no matter if the GC land was in the south or in the north. As of today, many GC's know what land belongs to which person, even if their grandparents and parents have passed away, because to GC's, they did not believe that the Cyprus problem was solved in ‘74, therefore they took care of business in passing down their land to their families legally, unlike for the TC's who were told that Cyprus problem was over in 74, therefore they did nothing with their land officially with the RoC, whether their land was in the south or the north. It will take many years to sort out the land problems that belong to the TC's, be it be in the north or the south, and the prospects of finding all the descendants of Ali to pass his land to them legally, will be a monumental task, if not impossible.!

I cannot disagree, and the fact that there was almost no way a TC could get access to the RoC Land Registry for the best part of 30 years was also a contributing factor.

The TRNC administration has a lot to answer for in relation to the current land situation

[EPSILON]

Kikapu wrote :

Isn't it true, that most of the TC land in the south belongs to our grandparents and parents and not to those of our age group or younger directly, which means that many of these legal owners are either dead or are very old who has not transferred their land titles into their children’s names in the last 35 years, because to do that, they would have had to go to south to take care of business, which many have not done so, because they have been given GC land instead in the north and would be afraid if the "trnc" found out that they were trying to "double dip", because even if the legal TC owners were dead, their children were given equal distribution of GC land in the north against the total land owned by their parents or grandparent in the south. So in effect, many TC's in the north are sitting on GC land that was given against divided (parcelled) TC deeds amongst the children of the original TC owner. If one of the children who has received GC land in the north and then sells it, like to the Orams, that TC may not have land in the south in his name, but in his parents or grandparents name, so in effect, he has no land in the south, at least not until all the children go through probate to sort it out, before most individuals can get part of their share into their names. But they could not do this, because of the "trnc" and the rules set by the RoC.!

This whole land issue is a mess especially for those children/grandchildren who in reality don't have much idea of what land was left in the south and who have no dealings with the land given as exchange in the north.

My father-in-law and his brothers have/had extensive land in Istinjo and were given exchange land in Balikesir/Palekythro. All of the kids are abroad, most in the UK, some in Australia. None have any intention whatsoever of settling in Cyprus. So what will hapeen to this land. Will it just go the the state over time ?

74LB,

It is a bad mess as you stated, because with each passing year, the TC land in the south becomes more difficult to sort out between the families who in principle are the owners since it was once owned by their parents or grandparents if no action was taken in the last 35+ years to officially re-register these TC lands in the new owners ( heirs) names with the land registry in the RoC. But guess what, I believe this problem does not stop only with TC land in the south, because the same problems are also happening in the north with the TC land before ‘74.

Lets just say Ali had 10 dönüms of land in the north pre ‘74 and in ‘84 Ali passes away and his 5 children all got 2 dönüms each and registered it with the land registry in the north. But the north is not recognised, and as far as the RoC is concerned, Ali is still the legal registered owner and non of his kids are if a will was not written and executed in the courts in the south or a probate had taken place, and since the north and south were closed off from each other, my guess is, nothing official has been done with Ali's land in the south, so come a settlement in the future, all these will need to be legally sorted out. Problems will occur if any of Ali's 5 children are now dead and they left a family behind and some of Ali's children or grandchildren has moved off the island to other parts of the world, it will be very difficult to get them all together in the future to all agree with what should be the final outcome of Ali's land, since I do not think the RoC will recognise any of the dealings the "trnc" had done on behalf of Ali's land, specially if Ali's land will fall into being in the south state once BBF is established. To make matters worse, most TC’s have also changed their family names from what the records will show for Ali in the RoC.

I believe the GC's will not have the same problems as the TC's, because they have been passing on their land to their heirs in an official way with the land registry in the south no matter if the GC land was in the south or in the north. As of today, many GC's know what land belongs to which person, even if their grandparents and parents have passed away, because to GC's, they did not believe that the Cyprus problem was solved in ‘74, therefore they took care of business in passing down their land to their families legally, unlike for the TC's who were told that Cyprus problem was over in 74, therefore they did nothing with their land officially with the RoC, whether their land was in the south or the north. It will take many years to sort out the land problems that belong to the TC's, be it be in the north or the south, and the prospects of finding all the descendants of Ali to pass his land to them legally, will be a monumental task, if not impossible.!

I cannot disagree, and the fact that there was almost no way a TC could get access to the RoC Land Registry for the best part of 30 years was also a contributing factor.

The TRNC administration has a lot to answer for in relation to the current land situation

A citizen of a reputable state must fulfil his obligations against the state before he be entitled to ask rights. T/cs (i consider) have still many rights in ROC, despite the fact that (most of them) do not fulfil even the basic obligations.