Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

I heard rumors, from a childhood lawyer friend, that the RoC government has employed the services of Turkish Cypriots, some of which are allegedly working in the “TRNC” equivalent of the land & admin department and other relevant areas, who are compiling lists of details of all foreigners who purchased GC property for the RoC!

For the right price, it seems the TCs are happy to dob in a Brit crim!

The case against the Orams was not just an innocent idea by a GC taking them to court to recover some money. Had that been the case, the "trnc" via the Orams could have settled the matter with Mr.A with a “out of court” settlement. NO, no, no, this was a very orchestrated attempt to get a landmark ruling within the EU which has been achieved, and all a while this case was going for the last 5 years, information had to have been collected on everyone in the north holding onto GC properties, including those who had been given "exchanged land". This was one of the benefits of opening the crossings after 30 years for this case to be successful, in that, all legal owners of such properties were able to go to the north and see who in fact were living on their properties. I'm in the belief, that the RoC has a complete dossier on all those involved in GC properties in the north.

It is very possible to get inside information even from an "Honest Society" if the price is right, which can be expensive at times, but getting inside information from a "Corrupted Society" is very easy and very cheap in comparison. Therefore GR, I don't think what you have stated is a "rumour" but a fact that has already happened.!

That does not surprise us one bit. We don't even come second in a two horse race with the RoC when it comes to corruption.

I don't think that is considered to be a corruption in protecting ones interest against morally corrupted individuals who are trying to steal others property. More like the RoC played as World Masters Chess Champions with the "trnc" and came away with a
Check-Mate and Game result at the end of it. I would hardly call that a "corruption".!

May I ask you why you are so protective of those who engaged in dealing with stolen GC properties. Should you not be condemning such criminal acts.? Do you want to tell us how much stolen GC property you have in your possession, if any, because you are acting like a sore loser since the ECJ ruling and not as cocky as you were before the ECJ ruling. There has been a definite a transformation has taken with you along with others. Have you all not been sleeping too well in the last 2 weeks or what.? Perhaps it is time for you all to go and confess your Sins of Haram to someone to bring much needed salvation for your souls.!

Et Tu Kiks?
For the record I do not have any GC property in my possession what so ever and in fact The GCs are in possession of my land.

You have already mentioned that you have land in the south, like most of us. Glad to hear you are not dealing in GC properties in the north.

So Why do I object to the ruling?

1. The Orams did not have a fair trial in the GC court which will end up back in the EU court before this thing is over. I am confident they will win so long as the Judge is not another GC.

I let the courts decide on whether they got a fair trial or not, but just how can they be excused for buying stolen land anyway, even if they did not know about it was stolen, so what, how does it change anything. Once they did found out that they had indeed bought stolen GC land, did they feel sorry for the legal owner and turn over the land to him, or did the fight him to keep his land.? Sorry, they are guilty as charged.

2. The GC court did not take into account that the TC who sold the property to the Orams has property in the south which is in the possesion of the ROC.

This has ZERO relevance to the Orams case. Did the TC seller to Orams exchanged his land with Mr.A, or even gave his land in the south to the RoC, or does he still have the deeds for them in the south. This is a pointless argument......sorry.!

3. The Property issue is a political tool used by the RoC to suffocate the TCs

Isn't everything political in Cyprus. Each side are using what ever means is available for them. The north uses the Turkish Army and the south uses the legality of the courts.

4. The TCs who have land in the south and have been unable to access it, have every right to do what they wish with the land that has been allocated to them as esdeger. This is common practice in all countries but is refered to as Lease arrangement. When and If the settlement happens all will be taken into considereation.

They were given GC property to live in, and not to sell until a settlement is found. The fact that Denktash pushed for this was to create a partition, and if people also went along with it, then the fault lies with the TC leadership and the TC's themselves. If such a crooked deal was not hatched by Denktash because he believed that the Cyprus problem was now over, then peace could have been found much sooner and everyone could have returned back to their homes. But lets put aside the GC property the TC's were given to live in as the same was done in the south, but how do you defend all the rest of the unused GC properties being given to the settlers and sold to the foreigners. This was not even "exchanged land" but pure excess GC land bought and sold for profit. Sorry, there was too way too much "bayram" going on in the north that they have just hit the jackpot with new wealth by tapping into the GC land.

I don't know what is a common practice that you can ethnically cleanse people from their land, take their property, sell their property all the while your own property still has your name on it on the other side of the divide. Give us some examples that this sort of things go on in any part of the EU countries. I'm not interested what goes on in undemocratic and Dictatorial countries. Israel is such a country, so, are you happy what the Israelis have/are doing to the Palestinians.?

5. All this is, is the new Akritas plan to wipe out TCs from Cyprus using just economic methods.

It's about law and order and basic Human Rights. This also gives the TC's the same opportunity to go after those who have bought their land in the south............if such cases exists that is. At the moment, the GC's are going after the foreigners and not after the TC refugees, so lets not get too excited about calling it the "Akritas Plan".

6. There may be a few thousand TC involved in the selling and all the TCs are being punished - this particularly stinks.

Blame your leadership. They have allowed this to happen so to have "bayram" with GC land. Don't blame the legal owners to seek justice. The TC's are made to believe that the north belongs to them, and they believed it. Who's fault is that.?

7. But all in all, It stinks to high heaven that International law is allowed to be manipulated in this way.

Any law, local or international are not liked very much by those whom are at the receiving end of such justices. It is very understandable, but as the saying goes, "if you do the crime, be prepared to do the time".!

[Kikapu]

Anyway I am not sure that the submission was in Turkish but this is what I have heard.

I believe it was in English and the Orams complained that the proceedings in the courtroom was in Greek. Imagine that, that Greek was used and not English in a country where one of the official languages is Greek.!!

[roseandchan]

my feelings are that when this started the orams should have tried to settle the matter, rather than going the full distance through the court system.
what is stopping them now claiming against the person who sold them the property?
i understand it was a tc , who aquired it from the trnc gov.

[halil]

‘WE HAVE TO MAKE LEGAL REPRISALS TO STRENGHTEN OUR HANDS IN POLITICAL ARENA’

The European Court of Justice’s judgment on the Orams Case is not in a form of recommendation, the Head of the Law Committee of the Communal Democracy Party Baris Mamali says.

Turkish Cypriots will get harmed from the current situation most, Mr Mamali warned.

At a press briefing today, Baris Mamali stated that properties in the South, which were formerly owned by Turkish Cypriots who received equivalent properties in the North formerly owned by Greek Cypriots, can be sold with a court’s verdict.

Thus, the ECJ judgment is a concern to those receiving equivalent properties too, he said.

‘The ECJ said any verdict made by a Greek Cypriot court regarding an immoveable property in North Cyprus can be recognized and implemented in other EU member countries. This is not a recommendation and the British Court of Appeal does not have the authority to change such a judgment’ Mamali said.

The Head of TDP’s Law Committee went on to say that the ECJ’s judgment is not only a concern to foreigners owning Greek Cypriot properties in North Cyprus but to all who own properties formerly owned by Greek Cypriots.

He pointed to the fact that cases can be filed against Turkish Cypriots too.

Baris Mamali however said it is not possible to resolve the issue of property through individual cases.

‘That’s why the Cyprus negotiations should be maintained. We need to work harder towards a settlement’ Mamali stressed.

Referring to some ways of struggling against the current disadvantageous situation, Mr Mamali underlined the need for strengthening the Turkish Cypriot hand in the political arena by making legal reprisals for Turkish Cypriots who had to leave their immoveable properties in South Cyprus as a result of the Cyprus problem.

[Kikapu]

‘WE HAVE TO MAKE LEGAL REPRISALS TO STRENGHTEN OUR HANDS IN POLITICAL ARENA’

The European Court of Justice’s judgment on the Orams Case is not in a form of recommendation, the Head of the Law Committee of the Communal Democracy Party Baris Mamali says.

Turkish Cypriots will get harmed from the current situation most, Mr Mamali warned.

At a press briefing today, Baris Mamali stated that properties in the South, which were formerly owned by Turkish Cypriots who received equivalent properties in the North formerly owned by Greek Cypriots, can be sold with a court’s verdict.

Thus, the ECJ judgment is a concern to those receiving equivalent properties too, he said.

‘The ECJ said any verdict made by a Greek Cypriot court regarding an immoveable property in North Cyprus can be recognized and implemented in other EU member countries. This is not a recommendation and the British Court of Appeal does not have the authority to change such a judgment’ Mamali said.

The Head of TDP’s Law Committee went on to say that the ECJ’s judgment is not only a concern to foreigners owning Greek Cypriot properties in North Cyprus but to all who own properties formerly owned by Greek Cypriots.

He pointed to the fact that cases can be filed against Turkish Cypriots too.

Baris Mamali however said it is not possible to resolve the issue of property through individual cases.

‘That’s why the Cyprus negotiations should be maintained. We need to work harder towards a settlement’ Mamali stressed.

Referring to some ways of struggling against the current disadvantageous situation, Mr Mamali underlined the need for strengthening the Turkish Cypriot hand in the political arena by making legal reprisals for Turkish Cypriots who had to leave their immoveable properties in South Cyprus as a result of the Cyprus problem.

At least there is someone in the north who understands what the ECJ ruling is all about and what it means and what it can do.

Yes, he is correct, that this ECJ judgement is for all the GC's properties in the north regardless who is occupying them and for all the TC properties in the south regardless who is occupying them. The only difference is, it has been the GC's properties which had been sold in the north as well as title deeds been given to the TC's illegally. Other than that, Mr Mamali doesn't know that there is only one Cyprus and not north and south Cyprus, and for a man of his calibre, I find it very worrying for the TC's that he will not be much good in any legal arena to defend their interest if he can't identify correctly the island's true legal status as it's well known in the International community. We already have enough stupid politicians in the north who has gotten the TC’s into this mess in the first place, so lets not make it worse by not having any intelligent legal minds also.

[halil]

What will the ending be?
15.05.2009

Marion Stuart

Huge media coverage has followed in the wake of the European Union Court’s decision on the Orams case, with comments from across the globe, some in defence of the south, some condemning the Brits who have come to live in the north, but many defending the north of Cyprus whilst having little good to say about the European Union.
Articles appeared in The Guardian in Britain written by Helena Smith in Nicosia which were very pro the south, referred to the ex pats as “Despondent rosy cheeked expats living in the scenic villages above the picturesque port of Kyrenia” and referring to the North as “a Mecca for British criminals and Turkish refugees” and stating that most refused to comment, apart from one who said “Greek Cypriot lies and b…..t!” She did not name this person who would appear to be of a somewhat different ilk to those with whom Cyprus Observer spoke, or indeed interviewed by Natalie Clarke, the Daily Mail reporter, who wrote a well balanced, if somewhat ‘soft’ (as said by someone within the community) article which appeared Monday 4 May.
What Natalie discovered was that few people within the ex pat community were prepared to speak their minds or have their names appear in print, showing that the EU decision has generated a larger degree of fear with property owners than before, with the fear not being limited to property matters. People are fearful that this decision will see an end to the peace talks, with the Turkish Media in Istanbul and here in the North loudly echoing these fears, confirmed by Mr Talat in a TV interview stating that the EU ‘once again shows it does not play a positive role in seeking a solution to the Cyprus problem.’
Alongside this fear is a degree of defiance among those ex pats who bought property here, trusting in all the advice they were given by lawyers and estate agents and who feel they are not the ones to have done wrong, and who hope that the British legal system will take the advice of some of the comments on the Daily Mail web page, where it is suggested that the E.U go into a rather hot direction! (Go to hell!) and stand by their autonomy within their own country.
Further thinking from Britain will not be available until October, following the summer recess, and it is doubtful that any comments by the ordinary people whose lives are now firmly rooted in northern Cyprus will be considered, even though as one newspaper claims, 5000 British homeowners in the North could be affected. As there are possibly 20,000 ex pats who could be affected, maybe they should be considered as if the future economy of northern Cyprus, which is already being affected, takes a further downturn, then many thousands of pounds will be lost and many lives destroyed because of one Greek Cypriot claiming what is only one tenth of a former family lemon grove.
A gentle reminder of what Meletis Apostolides said in print in the southern English press could or should put the matter into a perspective that seems to have been overlooked “I don’t mind Turkish Cypriots living on my land, but I do not want foreigners.” The Orams are the ‘foreigners’ who are as mystified as others as to how Mr Apostolides could return to an idyllic earlier life living in a razed property with no lemon grove.
For a large number of ex pats, the fear is submerged by British stoicism and defiance, although not all are ready to have their names in print. Many have strong views but are fearful of expressing them for fear of repercussions. “I am very vulnerable,” they say.
But for Nigel Heasman says, “This is my home! And if they want me to move, they will have to take me away. I have no intention of going anywhere else.”
Another ex pat who combines acceptance with a degree of fear thus asking for anonymity, and who is undecided as to how long to stay due to health reasons feels strongly on the subject, saying: “We have had a very good 7 years here and were lucky enough to buy when prices were very cheap but we would not give up without a fight and sincerely hope the Turkish Cypriots start fighting to claim their property and the border is closed, I feel very strongly about that because of all the money that is spent by the Brits and Turkish Cypriots in the South, the money is needed here.”

ORAMS PICTURE1:::: A British widow, Jane Marsden, who is heavily involved in KAR being more concerned with helping others than worrying about a hypothetically bad future says, “I am not sitting here worrying about a bulldozer turning up. I am getting on with my life. I knew when I bought here I could be taking a bit of a risk.”

ORAMS PICTURE2:::: Trevor and Mary Hughes (she works tirelessly for SOS Children’s village and Trevor was PR for BRS) are both of the opinion that “… in a way this could bring forward a solution because Turkey will not stand back and allow this, and I think that the world‘s community may take a bigger interest. I do think Turkish Cypriots should be assertive for in my view the Greeks are not the innocent party. We have learned today that the land here was ‘exchange land’ and we have been told that it safe. And in any case I cannot alter anything and I will not lose any sleep.”

ORAMS PICTURE3::::Malcolm Channing who was a lecturer in Business Law and who has had a property here for along time with his wife Maggie Daniel has many thoughts - many of which in his words ‘would be unprintable ’but suggests that people read some of the web pages devoted to discussion on matters in North Cyprus. In addition he gives food for thought “What follows is just a stab at natural justice. So if the ECJ ruling has to be accepted by the UK Appeal Court then it will find for Apostolides. But, let's say the judge wanted to be fair to the Orams who have a donum of orchard which is now ruined and are being asked to put it back to its original state and give it back. The judge could argue that this would cost more than the current value of the land and instead the Orams could pay Apostolides the current land value, £20,000, plus costs, i.e. £1.0002m. He could argue that its a bit like receiving a stolen painting worth £20,000 and cutting a square out of it. It would be fairer to ask for compensation in terms of the value of the stolen property rather than a highly expensive restoration process which could never truly return the property to its original desired state, i.e. in Apostolides’ case, as an orchard. It's also a bit like asking an insurance company to pay for an expensive restoration after a fire; they'd just give you the money to buy another one. This is not good news for the Orams and their backers, but, if this precedence is arrived at then UK residents could offer similar sums to Greek Cypriots bearing writs. I believe the GC would risk losing the costs of a court case in the UK if they were deemed to have refused a reasonable offer. They might even have to pay the defendant's costs.”
Lois Ismael who has resided for many years at Buyukkonuk and who organises the eco tourism days in the area, believes strongly that Greek Cypriot land should be respected, but in defence of those who have bought it, she says “I think it is the unscrupulous advice of estate agents, who are obviously what potential buyers are listening to, that has caused people to buy Greek Cypriot Land and I think the Government failed to make clear the legal aspects, but mainly because they believe in ‘TRNC forever’.

ORAMS PICTURE4::::Marian Stokes of Home Buyers Pressure Group is very much in the middle of property matters, and reports “Sadly I am getting lots of e mails from Greeks – the main message being that they ‘wish we all rot in hell’, and I am sure that when Rauf Denktas gave the land to the mainland Turks, he never envisaged that they would sell it on. It is important that people are aware of the correct procedure for dealing with any Greeks who come knocking on their door.” Marian said she will supply such advice through the Home Buyers web page, at her Pia Bella session on Tuesday afternoons and the Cyprus Observer will release it too.
If one cares to read the Daily Mail web page on the decision on the Orams case, there is a plethora of comments from as far afield as Bahrain, Serbia, Finland, Peru, Australia, France, Scotland, U.S.A and Turkey which are well worth reading, and others have sent comments direct to us.


ORAMS PICTURE5::::One such person is Detlef Schultz a social worker currently in Sweden, who regularly visits Northern Cyprus, and who feels “There seems real reason to be worried, especially in the light of the situation that arose when West and East Germany were re-united. Judges ruled that on property which had been seized and given or sold to others by the DDR should be returned to the refugees who left.
Maybe Northern Cyprus should have followed the Swedish law called ‘I god tro’ (in the best of believing) whereby if you acquire something unknowingly that was stolen you may keep it. And to my mind, it seems that all the threatened buyers have done all they could to ensure the property was bought the right way.”

ORAMS PICTURE6:::: However, Robert Simpson, a teacher, currently resident of Guernsey about to emigrate to Melbourne where he will find many Cypriots living side by side sent commiserations on reading the Daily Mail article “What a horrible situation. I had heard nothing about it, but then Guernsey is a little off the beaten track, but I do so hope that things turn out right for everyone affected!”


ORAMS PICTURE7:::: An Australian who visited Northern Cyprus, but who could not settle here because of work and family, is Barbara Hammond, an accountant, who fell in love with the country, its history and its peoples. She said, “On reading the article in the Daily Mail, I wonder if someone will come to claim your property. It’s a pretty interesting situation and I can see it getting nasty. What is the TRNC government doing to protect people like yourselves from legal action, after all, they were the ones who opened it up and allowed all the development. There is going to have to be some international intervention to solve the problem. This was the focus of a Foreign Correspondent episode on SBS (a very popular TV channel) last year. They were pretty one sided (Greek) and made the Brits and other settlers look like land grabbers.”


ORAMS PICTURE8:::: The final words must come from Embargoed! the human rights group which is now increasing its campaign for Dignity, Respect and Equality to be enshrined in all aspects of things associated with Cyprus and Turkish Cypriots. Fevzi Hussein, current Chairperson, was quick off the mark to condemn the ruling as being politically motivated stating, "The negotiating table was always slanted in favour of Greek Cypriots ever since the EU took in a divided island after the Annan referendum. Questions need to be asked and people need to be challenged. The fact that there were two Greek judges in the group who made the decision and one was actually the head judge will automatically raise eyebrows. People are obviously free to use legal avenues as they see fit but there is a clear political motivation behind the Orams case. This is another part of the overall master-plan that sees the Greek Cypriot authorities manoeuvring their efforts to gain a check-mate over Turkish Cypriots. It is okay for the Greek Cypriot administration to build their flagship airport on Turkish Cypriot land in Larnaca, against the will of the Turkish Cypriot landholder - a refugee. Similar stories relate to the Paphos airport and the huge power station in Limassol: All massive projects undertaken on Turkish Cypriot land without permission. These are horrible double standards designed to bring Turkish Cypriots and anyone supportive of Turkish Cypriots to their knees. It is time for the EU to wake up and treat us fairly or Turkish Cypriots will begin to look to other countries and continents to be treated with dignity and honour ".
The interest and the comments from around the world show that one good thing has come out of the Orams case and its world-wide publicity – the Cyprus Problem is being seen more clearly and more widely than before, and could gain a greater sympathy for North Cyprus which for too long has been branded the ‘Bad Boy of Cyprus’.


http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=3914

[AWE]

Anyway I am not sure that the submission was in Turkish but this is what I have heard.

I believe it was in English and the Orams complained that the proceedings in the courtroom was in Greek. Imagine that, that Greek was used and not English in a country where one of the official languages is Greek.!!

Hi Kikapu,

I understand they are complaing about the proceeding being in Greek but what do they expect!

It is just I remember reading somewhere they their defence was submitted in Turkish and rejected out of hand by the Judge because it was in Turkish - I think this is part of their submission to ECHR that they did not receive a fair hearing.

If they did not receive a fair hearing, guilty or not, their rights as EU national in and EU member state were seriously compromise - courts or prosecuting authorities cannot afford to cut corners in order to get a conviction because if they do the whole system of justice falls down.

[Kikapu]

Anyway I am not sure that the submission was in Turkish but this is what I have heard.

I believe it was in English and the Orams complained that the proceedings in the courtroom was in Greek. Imagine that, that Greek was used and not English in a country where one of the official languages is Greek.!!

Hi Kikapu,

I understand they are complaing about the proceeding being in Greek but what do they expect!

It is just I remember reading somewhere they their defence was submitted in Turkish and rejected out of hand by the Judge because it was in Turkish - I think this is part of their submission to ECHR that they did not receive a fair hearing.

If they did not receive a fair hearing, guilty or not, their rights as EU national in and EU member state were seriously compromise - courts or prosecuting authorities cannot afford to cut corners in order to get a conviction because if they do the whole system of justice falls down.

“Everything, all the hearings were conducted in the Greek language. The Greek Cypriot lawyer Kandunas kept on asking me how I had entered the island. When I told him through Ercan Airport, he insisted that the TRNC or Ercan Airport did not exist. And I said to myself what in the world does this have to do with our case” she complained.

The couple also said that it was outrageous that all the proceedings, including the court summons were in Greek.

“I frankly found it daft that everything was in Greek. The only time I was given a translator was when I took the stand. It didn’t make any sense because everyone in the court room spoke fluent English” she added.

The above is from page one on this tread which is the Orams interview, and no where do they complain about anything being rejected as being in Turkish. Their "beef" seems to be, that everything was conducted in Greek and not in English. The arrogant of these two idiots are never ending.

Now, they had a translator, so just how was their rights not protected in the court room for a fair trial. Again, their "beef" seems to be that everything was done in Greek. These idiots expect, that when they travel abroad and commit a crime, that the host country should accommodate them by speaking their language and not the language of the host nation.!

[Piratis]

Anyway I am not sure that the submission was in Turkish but this is what I have heard.

I believe it was in English and the Orams complained that the proceedings in the courtroom was in Greek. Imagine that, that Greek was used and not English in a country where one of the official languages is Greek.!!

Hi Kikapu,

I understand they are complaing about the proceeding being in Greek but what do they expect!

It is just I remember reading somewhere they their defence was submitted in Turkish and rejected out of hand by the Judge because it was in Turkish - I think this is part of their submission to ECHR that they did not receive a fair hearing.

If they did not receive a fair hearing, guilty or not, their rights as EU national in and EU member state were seriously compromise - courts or prosecuting authorities cannot afford to cut corners in order to get a conviction because if they do the whole system of justice falls down.

Can you give to us the relevant law to support your claims?

The Orams are not Turkish and are not citizens of Cyprus. Apostolides on the other hand is a citizen and a Greek Cypriot. So based on what a case between a Greek Cypriot and a foreign citizen should be contacted in Turkish?

Sorry, but it is obvious to me that such claims are baseless and you do not have any legal basis to support such a case. It seems to me all these is part of a delay game by the Turkish side. They know that they have no chance of winning such case but they are trying to delay it as much as possible hopping that meanwhile they will manage to force us to accept some Annan plan kind of "solution" and save themselves in that way.

[Kikapu]

Anyway I am not sure that the submission was in Turkish but this is what I have heard.

I believe it was in English and the Orams complained that the proceedings in the courtroom was in Greek. Imagine that, that Greek was used and not English in a country where one of the official languages is Greek.!!

Hi Kikapu,

I understand they are complaing about the proceeding being in Greek but what do they expect!

It is just I remember reading somewhere they their defence was submitted in Turkish and rejected out of hand by the Judge because it was in Turkish - I think this is part of their submission to ECHR that they did not receive a fair hearing.

If they did not receive a fair hearing, guilty or not, their rights as EU national in and EU member state were seriously compromise - courts or prosecuting authorities cannot afford to cut corners in order to get a conviction because if they do the whole system of justice falls down.

Can you give to us the relevant law to support your claims?

The Orams are not Turkish and are not citizens of Cyprus. Apostolides on the other hand is a citizen and a Greek Cypriot. So based on what a case between a Greek Cypriot and a foreign citizen should be contacted in Turkish?

Sorry, but it is obvious to me that such claims are baseless and you do not have any legal basis to support such a case. It seems to me all these is part of a delay game by the Turkish side. They know that they have no chance of winning such case but they are trying to delay it as much as possible hopping that meanwhile they will manage to force us to accept some Annan plan kind of "solution" and save themselves in that way.

I would not be surprised if the Orams received a fake TC citizenship in the "trnc", to claim such a right, that the court proceedings should have been in Turkish.!