The sovereignty of the Original, and now historical, 1960 partnership Constitution of the “Republic of Cyprus” was clearly “Defined” and “Restricted” by international law (London and Zurich Agreements of 1959) in order to protect the more “vulnerable” Turkish Cypriot partner – And how right that part turned out to be!
The “illegal” amendments of the constitution and the “violations” of the constitutional and civil rights of the Turkish Cypriot people during the early 1960s therefore surpassed the “legal scope” of Cyprus' sovereignty – “ultra vires” acts.
Furthermore, the institutions of the 1960 partnership Republic of Cyprus were incapable of functioning as of December 1963 as originally designed in the 1960 Constitution. From December 1963 on, what pretended to be the "Republic of Cyprus" in fact turned into a de-facto Greek Cypriot regime. If this Greek Cypriot regime is entitled to statehood, recognition and sovereignty, in spite of all its illegal deeds, the Turkish Cypriot side, as a political equal, is equally entitled, if not more, to the same things in order to maintain and safeguard its political equality and parity. In spite of this, the Turkish Cypriot Government has chosen to put this "necessity" aside at this time and instead direct its efforts at achieving a new bi-zonal partnership settlement as two equal political bodies in Cyprus.
The EU knows that they made a very grave mistake in accepting an island in Conflict, otherwise, why would they be so desperate in resolving the issue under UN parameters? Turkish Cypriot rights are indispensable, and our right to self-determination under the parameters of a conflict on the island since 1963 is incontrovertible.
The road of Ultra Vires of the Original 1960 Constitution is the only way left – when Christofias and Talat have completed their honeymoon talk’s process, of course!
"Ultra Vires" of the Original 1960 Constitution
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"Ultra Vires" of the Original 1960 Constitution
by MrH » Thu May 14, 2009 4:42 pm
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MrH - Regular Contributor
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by Piratis » Thu May 14, 2009 5:59 pm
The original constitution was made by British and Turks and imposed on the Cypriot people by force in order to restrict the right of freedom and self-determination of the Cypriots.
The Turkish minority in Cyprus, who had previously collaborated with the Colonialists by attacking the native Cypriot population and starting the inter-communal conflict, was rewarded with Ottoman style privileges on the expense of the native Cypriots. This was done in order to ensure that that in Cyprus there will always be two opposing and conflict sides (one the native Cypriots and the other the Turkish/British backed Turkish minority) and in this way help those foreigners (British/Turks) to maintain troops and control over our island.
Such racist, unfair, Apartheid kind of structures on the expense of the native Cypriots could not work, and they failed in Cyprus in the same way that they failed elsewhere (e.g. in South Africa, where again a small minority of former Colonialists where granted privileges on the expense of the native population)
The Cypriot people had every right to reform the foreign imposed constitution, and this is what we did. Today Cyprus is a democratic country ruled by its own people and this is the most legitimate rule Cyprus has seen for centuries. The world has recognized this fact, and the accession of Cyprus in EU and also the recent ECJ ruling confirmed this.
What is illegitimate is the Turkish occupation of the north part of Cyprus and the pseudo state the Turks declared on the land they stole from us.
We are only negotiating because we are blackmailed by Turkey, and not because we are legally or in any other way obligated to make any concessions to the foreign invaders.
However we will not capitulate, and the invaders should know that if they do not agree on a fair solution that will result in a unified democratic state that will respect the human rights of all Cypriots, that the war they started will continue for as long as it takes until justice is served in Cyprus. They should also know that meanwhile they will suffer the consequences of their crimes and illegalities and that there is no way out of this.
The Turkish minority in Cyprus, who had previously collaborated with the Colonialists by attacking the native Cypriot population and starting the inter-communal conflict, was rewarded with Ottoman style privileges on the expense of the native Cypriots. This was done in order to ensure that that in Cyprus there will always be two opposing and conflict sides (one the native Cypriots and the other the Turkish/British backed Turkish minority) and in this way help those foreigners (British/Turks) to maintain troops and control over our island.
Such racist, unfair, Apartheid kind of structures on the expense of the native Cypriots could not work, and they failed in Cyprus in the same way that they failed elsewhere (e.g. in South Africa, where again a small minority of former Colonialists where granted privileges on the expense of the native population)
The Cypriot people had every right to reform the foreign imposed constitution, and this is what we did. Today Cyprus is a democratic country ruled by its own people and this is the most legitimate rule Cyprus has seen for centuries. The world has recognized this fact, and the accession of Cyprus in EU and also the recent ECJ ruling confirmed this.
What is illegitimate is the Turkish occupation of the north part of Cyprus and the pseudo state the Turks declared on the land they stole from us.
We are only negotiating because we are blackmailed by Turkey, and not because we are legally or in any other way obligated to make any concessions to the foreign invaders.
However we will not capitulate, and the invaders should know that if they do not agree on a fair solution that will result in a unified democratic state that will respect the human rights of all Cypriots, that the war they started will continue for as long as it takes until justice is served in Cyprus. They should also know that meanwhile they will suffer the consequences of their crimes and illegalities and that there is no way out of this.
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by MrH » Thu May 14, 2009 6:41 pm
Piratis Wrote:
Sorry Piratis but that was a bad explanation - excuse. The "ROC" currently administered by a Greek Cypriot administration, including the 6 MEPs - of which Turkish Cypriots are NOT allowed to represent, is still up for political CHANGE. The GC-Administered ROC, if that's what you want to remain as, will soon have to yield to its original agreements, and Original Constitution. The legal parameters of the current ROC will either return to that of the 1960-63 context, or it will ultimately be dissolved, disbanded into either a Federation based on a BI-ZONAL formula, or a Clean break of let's say the "Greek Cypriot Republic" and "Turkish Cypriot Republic".
The legal argument for the TWO peoples have just started my friend. It's not ONLY the Greek Cypriots who are able to flash their Green money and take cases to Court!
I wouldn't get to comfortable with being known as the "Republic of Cyprus" if I were you. Just as Obama, and most leaders nowadays say, "IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE".
I'll go further into the ULTRA VIRES soon with you all. While for now, please do not hold back as to what you believe us, Turkish Cypriots, are preparing for.
The original constitution was made by British and Turks and imposed on the Cypriot people by force in order to restrict the right of freedom and self-determination of the Cypriots.
The Turkish minority in Cyprus, who had previously collaborated with the Colonialists by attacking the native Cypriot population and starting the inter-communal conflict, was rewarded with Ottoman style privileges on the expense of the native Cypriots. This was done in order to ensure that that in Cyprus there will always be two opposing and conflict sides (one the native Cypriots and the other the Turkish/British backed Turkish minority) and in this way help those foreigners (British/Turks) to maintain troops and control over our island.
Such racist, unfair, Apartheid kind of structures on the expense of the native Cypriots could not work, and they failed in Cyprus in the same way that they failed elsewhere (e.g. in South Africa, where again a small minority of former Colonialists where granted privileges on the expense of the native population)
The Cypriot people had every right to reform the foreign imposed constitution, and this is what we did. Today Cyprus is a democratic country ruled by its own people and this is the most legitimate rule Cyprus has seen for centuries. The world has recognized this fact, and the accession of Cyprus in EU and also the recent ECJ ruling confirmed this.
What is illegitimate is the Turkish occupation of the north part of Cyprus and the pseudo state the Turks declared on the land they stole from us.
We are only negotiating because we are blackmailed by Turkey, and not because we are legally or in any other way obligated to make any concessions to the foreign invaders.
However we will not capitulate, and the invaders should know that if they do not agree on a fair solution that will result in a unified democratic state that will respect the human rights of all Cypriots, that the war they started will continue for as long as it takes until justice is served in Cyprus. They should also know that meanwhile they will suffer the consequences of their crimes and illegalities and that there is no way out of this.
Sorry Piratis but that was a bad explanation - excuse. The "ROC" currently administered by a Greek Cypriot administration, including the 6 MEPs - of which Turkish Cypriots are NOT allowed to represent, is still up for political CHANGE. The GC-Administered ROC, if that's what you want to remain as, will soon have to yield to its original agreements, and Original Constitution. The legal parameters of the current ROC will either return to that of the 1960-63 context, or it will ultimately be dissolved, disbanded into either a Federation based on a BI-ZONAL formula, or a Clean break of let's say the "Greek Cypriot Republic" and "Turkish Cypriot Republic".
The legal argument for the TWO peoples have just started my friend. It's not ONLY the Greek Cypriots who are able to flash their Green money and take cases to Court!
I wouldn't get to comfortable with being known as the "Republic of Cyprus" if I were you. Just as Obama, and most leaders nowadays say, "IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE".
I'll go further into the ULTRA VIRES soon with you all. While for now, please do not hold back as to what you believe us, Turkish Cypriots, are preparing for.
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MrH - Regular Contributor
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Re: "Ultra Vires" of the Original 1960 Constitutio
by Get Real! » Thu May 14, 2009 7:25 pm
MrH wrote:The sovereignty of the Original, and now historical, 1960 partnership Constitution of the “Republic of Cyprus” was clearly “Defined” and “Restricted” by international law (London and Zurich Agreements of 1959) in order to protect the more “vulnerable” Turkish Cypriot partner – And how right that part turned out to be!
If it was so right how come it did exactly what you assume it prevented?
You really need to start THINKING before posting!
The “illegal” amendments of the constitution...
There were no amendments but proposals… get your facts right!
http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/A ... points.pdf
The EU knows that they made a very grave mistake in accepting an island in Conflict, otherwise, why would they be so desperate in resolving the issue under UN parameters?
The EU says no such thing but your fantasy. Had UN parameters been utilized then they would start here...
http://www.un.int/cyprus/resolut.htm
Turkish Cypriot rights are indispensable, and our right to self-determination under the parameters of a conflict on the island since 1963 is incontrovertible.
You DO NOT have "self-determination" rights. Get your facts right!
0/10
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Get Real! - Forum Addict
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by MrH » Fri May 15, 2009 12:43 pm
Get Real Wrote:
Get Real,
You've got the wrong end of the stick mate - I thought you were a self-confessed "elite"?
The point of all this is that, The "Republic of Cyprus" ENDED in 1963, where from that point on it became, not an administration based on its founding constitution and agreements, but one hijacked forcefully by the Greek Cypriots.
With Ultra Vires, we will demand (via the courts) to the return of the "Republic of Cyprus" as it was in its original form in 1960, and then, only from that point, will we be able to legally establish a better political resolution on the island. Put it this way, the former YUGOSLAVIA could not have been hijacked by any one of the inter peoples or administrations; such as Croatia, Montenegro, Kosovo and etc, therefore a new state of affairs were created. The current GC-Administered "Republic of Cyprus" is only an administration that; (1) does not comply with the original constitution established in 1960 and by the Zurich agreements, (2) But was wrongly allowed to continue in the name of the Republic of Cyprus, enter the EU and sign many agreements on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots without their permission. Therefore, the GCs are operating under their own de facto. You should have renamed it the Greek Cypriot Republic, at least you wouldn't have been compelled to sit at a table in order to change it's structure - as is what will happen now between Christofias and Talat under the authority of the UNITED NATIONS.
Even the EU confirmed that it had made a mistake when it admitted an island in Conflict!
And, more importantly, the current "Republic of Cyprus" is a government and not an "island". The island is called "CYPRUS", and within it, like with many other island, lands and places around the world, it's "Governments" and its structure could be subject to change in a state of conflict between its founding people. Turkey intervened according to the Zurich AGREEMENT in 1974 due to mass conflict on the island, a coup and etc, etc - I won't bore you with the rest. It only sought to stay due to the desperate call of one of Cyprus' founding people in-line with the ORIGINAL "Republic of Cyprus" constitution and agreements. The island's "Conflict" is not resolved, therefore the administration of the island is still subject to change.
Thus, it's either, you agree to a secessionist Turkish Cypriot State broken off of the Original Republic of Cyprus (of 1960), or a FEDERAL State of two Administrations. These are the facts Get Real, where, you'll soon understand its meaning on a grander scale when Christofias and Talat reach the end of their FEDERATED positions.
However, there is one other way out! And that is to halt the current talks, declare that the current "Republic of Cyprus" is only a Greek Cypriot REPUBLIC and it agrees to a TWO STATE formula for the administration of the island with the original founding Turkish Cypriot people. We know why Makarios so desperately wanted those 13-point changes in 1963. And, truthfully, it's not our problem if you feel that Makarios was tricked into signing the original 1960 agreement(s). It's either you accept a formula based on the current realities, or a COMPLETE return to the state of affairs prior to 1963 - now that would be interesting, can you imagine how Makarios and Papadopoulos would both turn in their graves if that would happen?
The former Tassos Papadopoulos had the right idea - I know, I spoke to him once in person (!). He told me (if my memory correctly serves me!) "I would rather accept partition than to return to the original 1960 Constitution as it empowered the Turkish Cypriots to grab us by the throat in every legal turning we wanted to change or alter".
He's was right, the state of affairs prior to Makarios wanting the 13-point changes certainly did cater for our (Turkish Cypriot) needs as "Partner" peoples of the original Republic of Cyprus. If that's what you want, then continue with what ever it is you are trying to do, but rest assured that the unification you are trying to lock-down, including the 13-point changes of 1963, can not legally be enforced as part of a new Cyprus agreement as expressed by Chrostofias in his call for us to join the current ROC in the form of a so-called "Evolution".
Please think about the ISLAND OF CYPRUS, and NOT the current GC-Controlled ROC, before answering to this string. I know all about the websites and links you continually, and annoyingly reference - and I know what kind of solution you want. Unless you've personally sat around a table with all political personalities from the UN, GC, TC, TK, GR, EU and a few judges and other legal professionals who know all of the legal parameters of the Cyprus issue from ALL Angles, you'll agree that a solution can only be in the form of one of the following: It's either back to 1960, agreed partition, a federal Bi-zonal formula or Nothing - which would mean that Northern Cyprus would then end up as an official province of Turkey (perhaps not internationally recognised, but its representation changed in the eyes of the international community - think about TAIWAN!)
Have a good day mate.
MrH wrote:
The sovereignty of the Original, and now historical, 1960 partnership Constitution of the “Republic of Cyprus” was clearly “Defined” and “Restricted” by international law (London and Zurich Agreements of 1959) in order to protect the more “vulnerable” Turkish Cypriot partner – And how right that part turned out to be!
If it was so right how come it did exactly what you assume it prevented?
You really need to start THINKING before posting!
Quote:
The “illegal” amendments of the constitution...
There were no amendments but proposals… get your facts right!
http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/A ... points.pdf
Quote:
The EU knows that they made a very grave mistake in accepting an island in Conflict, otherwise, why would they be so desperate in resolving the issue under UN parameters?
The EU says no such thing but your fantasy. Had UN parameters been utilized then they would start here...
http://www.un.int/cyprus/resolut.htm
Quote:
Turkish Cypriot rights are indispensable, and our right to self-determination under the parameters of a conflict on the island since 1963 is incontrovertible.
You DO NOT have "self-determination" rights. Get your facts right!
0/10
Get Real,
You've got the wrong end of the stick mate - I thought you were a self-confessed "elite"?
The point of all this is that, The "Republic of Cyprus" ENDED in 1963, where from that point on it became, not an administration based on its founding constitution and agreements, but one hijacked forcefully by the Greek Cypriots.
With Ultra Vires, we will demand (via the courts) to the return of the "Republic of Cyprus" as it was in its original form in 1960, and then, only from that point, will we be able to legally establish a better political resolution on the island. Put it this way, the former YUGOSLAVIA could not have been hijacked by any one of the inter peoples or administrations; such as Croatia, Montenegro, Kosovo and etc, therefore a new state of affairs were created. The current GC-Administered "Republic of Cyprus" is only an administration that; (1) does not comply with the original constitution established in 1960 and by the Zurich agreements, (2) But was wrongly allowed to continue in the name of the Republic of Cyprus, enter the EU and sign many agreements on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots without their permission. Therefore, the GCs are operating under their own de facto. You should have renamed it the Greek Cypriot Republic, at least you wouldn't have been compelled to sit at a table in order to change it's structure - as is what will happen now between Christofias and Talat under the authority of the UNITED NATIONS.
Even the EU confirmed that it had made a mistake when it admitted an island in Conflict!
And, more importantly, the current "Republic of Cyprus" is a government and not an "island". The island is called "CYPRUS", and within it, like with many other island, lands and places around the world, it's "Governments" and its structure could be subject to change in a state of conflict between its founding people. Turkey intervened according to the Zurich AGREEMENT in 1974 due to mass conflict on the island, a coup and etc, etc - I won't bore you with the rest. It only sought to stay due to the desperate call of one of Cyprus' founding people in-line with the ORIGINAL "Republic of Cyprus" constitution and agreements. The island's "Conflict" is not resolved, therefore the administration of the island is still subject to change.
Thus, it's either, you agree to a secessionist Turkish Cypriot State broken off of the Original Republic of Cyprus (of 1960), or a FEDERAL State of two Administrations. These are the facts Get Real, where, you'll soon understand its meaning on a grander scale when Christofias and Talat reach the end of their FEDERATED positions.
However, there is one other way out! And that is to halt the current talks, declare that the current "Republic of Cyprus" is only a Greek Cypriot REPUBLIC and it agrees to a TWO STATE formula for the administration of the island with the original founding Turkish Cypriot people. We know why Makarios so desperately wanted those 13-point changes in 1963. And, truthfully, it's not our problem if you feel that Makarios was tricked into signing the original 1960 agreement(s). It's either you accept a formula based on the current realities, or a COMPLETE return to the state of affairs prior to 1963 - now that would be interesting, can you imagine how Makarios and Papadopoulos would both turn in their graves if that would happen?
The former Tassos Papadopoulos had the right idea - I know, I spoke to him once in person (!). He told me (if my memory correctly serves me!) "I would rather accept partition than to return to the original 1960 Constitution as it empowered the Turkish Cypriots to grab us by the throat in every legal turning we wanted to change or alter".
He's was right, the state of affairs prior to Makarios wanting the 13-point changes certainly did cater for our (Turkish Cypriot) needs as "Partner" peoples of the original Republic of Cyprus. If that's what you want, then continue with what ever it is you are trying to do, but rest assured that the unification you are trying to lock-down, including the 13-point changes of 1963, can not legally be enforced as part of a new Cyprus agreement as expressed by Chrostofias in his call for us to join the current ROC in the form of a so-called "Evolution".
Please think about the ISLAND OF CYPRUS, and NOT the current GC-Controlled ROC, before answering to this string. I know all about the websites and links you continually, and annoyingly reference - and I know what kind of solution you want. Unless you've personally sat around a table with all political personalities from the UN, GC, TC, TK, GR, EU and a few judges and other legal professionals who know all of the legal parameters of the Cyprus issue from ALL Angles, you'll agree that a solution can only be in the form of one of the following: It's either back to 1960, agreed partition, a federal Bi-zonal formula or Nothing - which would mean that Northern Cyprus would then end up as an official province of Turkey (perhaps not internationally recognised, but its representation changed in the eyes of the international community - think about TAIWAN!)
Have a good day mate.
-
MrH - Regular Contributor
- Posts: 1090
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- Location: London
by DT. » Fri May 15, 2009 2:12 pm
MrH wrote:Get Real Wrote:MrH wrote:
The sovereignty of the Original, and now historical, 1960 partnership Constitution of the “Republic of Cyprus” was clearly “Defined” and “Restricted” by international law (London and Zurich Agreements of 1959) in order to protect the more “vulnerable” Turkish Cypriot partner – And how right that part turned out to be!
If it was so right how come it did exactly what you assume it prevented?
You really need to start THINKING before posting!
Quote:
The “illegal” amendments of the constitution...
There were no amendments but proposals… get your facts right!
http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/A ... points.pdf
Quote:
The EU knows that they made a very grave mistake in accepting an island in Conflict, otherwise, why would they be so desperate in resolving the issue under UN parameters?
The EU says no such thing but your fantasy. Had UN parameters been utilized then they would start here...
http://www.un.int/cyprus/resolut.htm
Quote:
Turkish Cypriot rights are indispensable, and our right to self-determination under the parameters of a conflict on the island since 1963 is incontrovertible.
You DO NOT have "self-determination" rights. Get your facts right!
0/10
Get Real,
You've got the wrong end of the stick mate - I thought you were a self-confessed "elite"?
The point of all this is that, The "Republic of Cyprus" ENDED in 1963, where from that point on it became, not an administration based on its founding constitution and agreements, but one hijacked forcefully by the Greek Cypriots.
With Ultra Vires, we will demand (via the courts) to the return of the "Republic of Cyprus" as it was in its original form in 1960, and then, only from that point, will we be able to legally establish a better political resolution on the island. Put it this way, the former YUGOSLAVIA could not have been hijacked by any one of the inter peoples or administrations; such as Croatia, Montenegro, Kosovo and etc, therefore a new state of affairs were created. The current GC-Administered "Republic of Cyprus" is only an administration that; (1) does not comply with the original constitution established in 1960 and by the Zurich agreements, (2) But was wrongly allowed to continue in the name of the Republic of Cyprus, enter the EU and sign many agreements on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots without their permission. Therefore, the GCs are operating under their own de facto. You should have renamed it the Greek Cypriot Republic, at least you wouldn't have been compelled to sit at a table in order to change it's structure - as is what will happen now between Christofias and Talat under the authority of the UNITED NATIONS.
Even the EU confirmed that it had made a mistake when it admitted an island in Conflict!
And, more importantly, the current "Republic of Cyprus" is a government and not an "island". The island is called "CYPRUS", and within it, like with many other island, lands and places around the world, it's "Governments" and its structure could be subject to change in a state of conflict between its founding people. Turkey intervened according to the Zurich AGREEMENT in 1974 due to mass conflict on the island, a coup and etc, etc - I won't bore you with the rest. It only sought to stay due to the desperate call of one of Cyprus' founding people in-line with the ORIGINAL "Republic of Cyprus" constitution and agreements. The island's "Conflict" is not resolved, therefore the administration of the island is still subject to change.
Thus, it's either, you agree to a secessionist Turkish Cypriot State broken off of the Original Republic of Cyprus (of 1960), or a FEDERAL State of two Administrations. These are the facts Get Real, where, you'll soon understand its meaning on a grander scale when Christofias and Talat reach the end of their FEDERATED positions.
However, there is one other way out! And that is to halt the current talks, declare that the current "Republic of Cyprus" is only a Greek Cypriot REPUBLIC and it agrees to a TWO STATE formula for the administration of the island with the original founding Turkish Cypriot people. We know why Makarios so desperately wanted those 13-point changes in 1963. And, truthfully, it's not our problem if you feel that Makarios was tricked into signing the original 1960 agreement(s). It's either you accept a formula based on the current realities, or a COMPLETE return to the state of affairs prior to 1963 - now that would be interesting, can you imagine how Makarios and Papadopoulos would both turn in their graves if that would happen?
The former Tassos Papadopoulos had the right idea - I know, I spoke to him once in person (!). He told me (if my memory correctly serves me!) "I would rather accept partition than to return to the original 1960 Constitution as it empowered the Turkish Cypriots to grab us by the throat in every legal turning we wanted to change or alter".
He's was right, the state of affairs prior to Makarios wanting the 13-point changes certainly did cater for our (Turkish Cypriot) needs as "Partner" peoples of the original Republic of Cyprus. If that's what you want, then continue with what ever it is you are trying to do, but rest assured that the unification you are trying to lock-down, including the 13-point changes of 1963, can not legally be enforced as part of a new Cyprus agreement as expressed by Chrostofias in his call for us to join the current ROC in the form of a so-called "Evolution".
Please think about the ISLAND OF CYPRUS, and NOT the current GC-Controlled ROC, before answering to this string. I know all about the websites and links you continually, and annoyingly reference - and I know what kind of solution you want. Unless you've personally sat around a table with all political personalities from the UN, GC, TC, TK, GR, EU and a few judges and other legal professionals who know all of the legal parameters of the Cyprus issue from ALL Angles, you'll agree that a solution can only be in the form of one of the following: It's either back to 1960, agreed partition, a federal Bi-zonal formula or Nothing - which would mean that Northern Cyprus would then end up as an official province of Turkey (perhaps not internationally recognised, but its representation changed in the eyes of the international community - think about TAIWAN!)
Have a good day mate.
The island of Cyprus falls under the sovereignty of the Goverment of Cyprus as agreed within the EU protocol signed between the Government of Cyprus and the EU and the relevant UN resolutions.
Try again.
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DT. - Leading Contributor
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by Kikapu » Fri May 15, 2009 2:23 pm
Very quickly Mr. H.
If we were to go back to 1960 agreements, then the "trnc" will need to be dissolved as of yesterday and everyone back to their homes......agreed.?
But we can't go back to the 1960 agreements, because another agreement has been reached already, BBF, which means that as soon as BBF is implemented, the 1960 agreements are non and void, which means that non of the 1960 agreements needs to be in the new BBF agreements if any one of the parties no longer want them included, which will be a major loss for the TC's with veto powers and guarantee powers from Turkey, 30% government jobs, 50% power. If BBF is also rejected by both the parties, they still cannot go back to the 1960 agreements as it was before if one of the two parties want to make changes to it, because it was already agreed to go with the BBF before hand............agreed.?
As for RoC being in the EU, it was legal when it was admitted and it is legal today. The TC's had a veto power and Denktash did not use it to prevent the RoC from becoming a EU member, so in essence, the TC's gave their blessing to such union by de-fault for not using their veto, assuming of course, that Denktash took his place as a vice President in the late 70's to be part of the RoC government, which he had refused.........agreed.?
When you look art the above, Denktash really made a balls of the Cyprus situation for the TC’s. He wanted something better than the 1960 agreements, like a partition, so, as soon as Makarios came up with the 13 points, Denktash saw the chance and ran to create the new “borders”………………agreed.?
If we were to go back to 1960 agreements, then the "trnc" will need to be dissolved as of yesterday and everyone back to their homes......agreed.?
But we can't go back to the 1960 agreements, because another agreement has been reached already, BBF, which means that as soon as BBF is implemented, the 1960 agreements are non and void, which means that non of the 1960 agreements needs to be in the new BBF agreements if any one of the parties no longer want them included, which will be a major loss for the TC's with veto powers and guarantee powers from Turkey, 30% government jobs, 50% power. If BBF is also rejected by both the parties, they still cannot go back to the 1960 agreements as it was before if one of the two parties want to make changes to it, because it was already agreed to go with the BBF before hand............agreed.?
As for RoC being in the EU, it was legal when it was admitted and it is legal today. The TC's had a veto power and Denktash did not use it to prevent the RoC from becoming a EU member, so in essence, the TC's gave their blessing to such union by de-fault for not using their veto, assuming of course, that Denktash took his place as a vice President in the late 70's to be part of the RoC government, which he had refused.........agreed.?
When you look art the above, Denktash really made a balls of the Cyprus situation for the TC’s. He wanted something better than the 1960 agreements, like a partition, so, as soon as Makarios came up with the 13 points, Denktash saw the chance and ran to create the new “borders”………………agreed.?
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Kikapu - Leading Contributor
- Posts: 18050
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by MrH » Fri May 15, 2009 6:03 pm
DT Wrote:
Hi DT,
Your level of thinking is still wrapped up within the context of the EU - forget what the GC-Controlled has signed with the EU, as it doesn't really mean much (as if signing a deal with the EU stops any member country from changing its Internal affairs). Try to dismiss what you have signed with the EU and go back to 1960. It doesn't matter whatever you've signed with the EU, the New Russian Federation or even a newly recognised state such as Montenegro, as all agreements are always subject to change and amendments - I'm sure you know this?
The EU recognises the Greek Cypriot administered government, at present, as the only legitimate "Government of Cyprus" (and NOT the island of Cyprus, as it clearly does not reference "ISLAND", but only "Government" - I'm sure any Constitutional Lawyer can educate you on this aspect of signing constitutional/ and International agreements), but clearly there are certain misconceptions here!
The "Government of Cyprus", and the "Government of Northern Cyprus", regardless of the Government of Northern Cyprus not being completely internationally recognised, are clearly Two separate entities and are referenced within the own capacity. The EU references only "Government" and not "People" or as I have said above "Island".
The EU has confirmed that it agrees that the island is still in Conflict, and that the border is actually a "Cease Fire Line", this is fact. It does not mention any reference to "Occupation", "Invaders" or accuse Turkey of partitioning the island within the context of the EU Protocol for Cyprus.
If the EU has given the Greek Cypriots the impression that the Turkish Cypriots CAN ONLY SOLVE the Cyprus problem by joining the GC-Administered Republic of Cyprus, then why does it support a Federal basis for negotiation in agreement in establishing a "United Republic of Cyprus" consisting of Two Constituent States, and in complete such of the UN - like it did in 2004 with the former Annan Plan?
KIKAPU:
The whole point in going back to the Political Stage of the 1960 Constitution and its Agreements is to establish a true, and just basis for a future resolution to the Cyprus problem - only because the current version of the Republic of Cyprus has seen the absence of its partner community; the Turkish Cypriots, since 1963 and can no longer be used as a basis. In other words, the GC-Administered and changed "Republic of Cyprus" has been fine tuned (GC-Style) to include the 13-point changes that Makarios wanted, and many more, rendering it unworkable, and unacceptable in the eyes of the Turkish Cypriot people.
Therefore, the ONLY GOVERNMENT OF CYPRUS that BOTH Peoples ACTUALLY AGREED to was the original 1960 Cyprus Constitution and its agreements - But of course we all know how much the Greek Cypriots wanted to change it (1963).
So, what am I saying? In simple terms Kikapu, BOTH the "TRNC" and the "GC-ROC" will both have to be DISSOLVED - Like the former YUGOSLAVIA - if there's any chance of a CYPRUS deal in the future - probably one based on a similar basis to the YUGOSLAVIAN Model after its bloody history - Independent States. Under the Ultra Vires act, this is probably the only true, and fair way of resolving the Cyprus problem: Back to basics, clean the slate and then agree on a Two State formula, like what should have been done in 1963 when the Greek Cypriots forcefully changed the Constitution of the Republic of Cyprus without the permission or participation of the Turkish Cypriot Partner people of the island.
The island of Cyprus falls under the sovereignty of the Goverment of Cyprus as agreed within the EU protocol signed between the Government of Cyprus and the EU and the relevant UN resolutions.
Try again.
Hi DT,
Your level of thinking is still wrapped up within the context of the EU - forget what the GC-Controlled has signed with the EU, as it doesn't really mean much (as if signing a deal with the EU stops any member country from changing its Internal affairs). Try to dismiss what you have signed with the EU and go back to 1960. It doesn't matter whatever you've signed with the EU, the New Russian Federation or even a newly recognised state such as Montenegro, as all agreements are always subject to change and amendments - I'm sure you know this?
The EU recognises the Greek Cypriot administered government, at present, as the only legitimate "Government of Cyprus" (and NOT the island of Cyprus, as it clearly does not reference "ISLAND", but only "Government" - I'm sure any Constitutional Lawyer can educate you on this aspect of signing constitutional/ and International agreements), but clearly there are certain misconceptions here!
The "Government of Cyprus", and the "Government of Northern Cyprus", regardless of the Government of Northern Cyprus not being completely internationally recognised, are clearly Two separate entities and are referenced within the own capacity. The EU references only "Government" and not "People" or as I have said above "Island".
The EU has confirmed that it agrees that the island is still in Conflict, and that the border is actually a "Cease Fire Line", this is fact. It does not mention any reference to "Occupation", "Invaders" or accuse Turkey of partitioning the island within the context of the EU Protocol for Cyprus.
If the EU has given the Greek Cypriots the impression that the Turkish Cypriots CAN ONLY SOLVE the Cyprus problem by joining the GC-Administered Republic of Cyprus, then why does it support a Federal basis for negotiation in agreement in establishing a "United Republic of Cyprus" consisting of Two Constituent States, and in complete such of the UN - like it did in 2004 with the former Annan Plan?
KIKAPU:
The whole point in going back to the Political Stage of the 1960 Constitution and its Agreements is to establish a true, and just basis for a future resolution to the Cyprus problem - only because the current version of the Republic of Cyprus has seen the absence of its partner community; the Turkish Cypriots, since 1963 and can no longer be used as a basis. In other words, the GC-Administered and changed "Republic of Cyprus" has been fine tuned (GC-Style) to include the 13-point changes that Makarios wanted, and many more, rendering it unworkable, and unacceptable in the eyes of the Turkish Cypriot people.
Therefore, the ONLY GOVERNMENT OF CYPRUS that BOTH Peoples ACTUALLY AGREED to was the original 1960 Cyprus Constitution and its agreements - But of course we all know how much the Greek Cypriots wanted to change it (1963).
So, what am I saying? In simple terms Kikapu, BOTH the "TRNC" and the "GC-ROC" will both have to be DISSOLVED - Like the former YUGOSLAVIA - if there's any chance of a CYPRUS deal in the future - probably one based on a similar basis to the YUGOSLAVIAN Model after its bloody history - Independent States. Under the Ultra Vires act, this is probably the only true, and fair way of resolving the Cyprus problem: Back to basics, clean the slate and then agree on a Two State formula, like what should have been done in 1963 when the Greek Cypriots forcefully changed the Constitution of the Republic of Cyprus without the permission or participation of the Turkish Cypriot Partner people of the island.
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MrH - Regular Contributor
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