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[Hatter]

Hi ya all

GR, if God exists because it is the explanation for the existence of the universe/cosmos, then it begs the question "how did God come into existence"?

[Oracle]

... We haven’t yet observed a star or planet dying and at the last minute transforming into something else though so I don't know about rebirth...

Start another thread asking who believes in rebirth .....

Another victim of mid-life crisis

[Hatter]

Hi ya all

GR, if God exists because it is the explanation for the existence of the universe/cosmos, then it begs the question "how did God come into existence"?

In your own good time, GR.

If I understand correctly, your line of thought goes like this:-

A) Every "thing" that exists must have been created by some entity.
B) The universe/cosmos exists.
C) Therefore some entity (God) must exist that created the cosmos.

My question is: if we accept (A), then what entity created the entity that created the Cosmos?

This is an example of a "closed", recursive, self-referencing "system". It has been demontrated (see Gödel) that any such system is either incomplete or inconsistent. This is not proof that God does not exist, it is proof that it is impossible to know in terms of logic. Your initial question is certainly very interesting, but IMHO the underlying problem is the attempt to prove something which in the final analysis is unknowable and is a question of faith.

[denizaksulu]

Who cares.?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

My God, he is indeed a great Biochemist!!

Please carry on.

[Get Real!]

Hi ya all

GR, if God exists because it is the explanation for the existence of the universe/cosmos, then it begs the question "how did God come into existence"?

Someone has beaten you to it... read the whole thread.

Reversing the question is not an answer.

[offlimits2]

There is NOT one iota of either scientific proof or logic that the universe was created by a god , a god that does not exist and NEVER has existed.
Man's inability to explain the existence and creation of the universe does non mean that there is or was a creator.
If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

Check out the overwhelming majority of theists and you will be amazed how high the level of illeteracy is amongst them.

Subject: A GREAT DISCUSSION:--Dont miss even a single word


One of the best Arguments ever....
Don't miss even a single word... Every second is worth reading this mail... Too good.

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty.
He asks one of his new students to stand and.....
Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof : Is God good?
Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student : Yes.

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.
Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill.. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?
Student : No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you.
Tell me, son...Have you ever
seen God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist.
What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Prof: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold

Prof: Yes.
Student: No sir.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat.
But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go
any further after that.
There is no such thing as cold . Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of
heat . We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy . Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it .
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright
light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In
reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.
Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir
The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)
Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH . That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

NB: I believe you have enjoyed the conversation...and if so...you'll probably want your friends/colleagues to enjoy the same...won't you?....
this is a true story, and the
student was none other than..........

APJ Abdul Kalam , the former president of India .

[Get Real!]

My question is: if we accept (A), then what entity created the entity that created the Cosmos?

Did you honestly think your question was so spectacular that it had to be repeated and expanded?

Reversing the question is not an answer.

[bill cobbett]

Before Big Bang there was the Squeaky Bum and The Bumness Passed Wind and there cameth forth a Quantum Fluctuation which perturbed The Inflaton Field to a lower Energy Level and the Released Energy drove the Inflation creating space... and the rest is history.

Que sera sera, whatever will be, will be.

Next stop a Free Rome. Come on you Reds!

[Hatter]

My question is: if we accept (A), then what entity created the entity that created the Cosmos?

Did you honestly think your question was so spectacular that it had to be repeated and expanded?

Reversing the question is not an answer.

No, not spectacular, just logical. Expanded in order to facilitate discussion by showing the self-referencing nature of your argument. Does that bother you? Meant to delete the first version as a double post, I hope it did not cause any inconvenience.

You haven't really answered my question.

The corollary of my comment is that the agnostic view is the most logically consistent one thus far.

[bill cobbett]

My question is: if we accept (A), then what entity created the entity that created the Cosmos?

Did you honestly think your question was so spectacular that it had to be repeated and expanded?

Reversing the question is not an answer.

No, not spectacular, just logical. Expanded in order to facilitate discussion by showing the self-referencing nature of your argument. Does that bother you? Meant to delete the first version as a double post, I hope it did not cause any inconvenience.

You haven't really answered my question.

The corollary of my comment is that the agnostic view is the most logically consistent one thus far.

Stop sitting on fences Hatter mate/matess or you'll get a sore bum.