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One for the unwavering atheists…

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Postby Get Real! » Thu May 07, 2009 11:47 pm

Bananiot wrote:Is it possible for something to be born from nothing? Can the universe, for example, come from nothing? What if the universe existed all the time, at every instant of time?

I would happily accept/consider the notion of an infinite Universe however, I hope you realize that this would totally kill off many popular views such as the Universe aging and/or expanding, etc.

Simultaneously, an infinite Universe elevates other popular ideas such as “bendable” and/or variable-length time in different locations, etc.

And, according to the theory of relativity, if time and space are indeed inseparable parameters of the universe and if the origin of the universe is the origin of space and time too, could we conclude that there was no time prior to the big bang?

Yes, but it would contradict the infinite Universe notion you started out with unless you separate between the Universe's "shell" (that which encapsulates everything) as being infinite and the contents of the universe being bound by the laws we are accustomed with.

Yet, can something else happen to time (perhaps explained by quantum mechanics) when the entire universe was concentrated in a point of infinite density (singularity = infinite density, zero volume.)? Then again, what if just time alone existed before the universe?

Well here you introduce two super-assumptions...

1. A notion that the universe was concentrated at some stage...

2. The existence of "infinite density", something unfathomably unquantifiable! :?

Common sense dictates that nothing can be born from nothing (of course, it was common sense for a very long time that the earth is flat). But, hold on, if empty space is nothing, how do we explain the appearance of particle-antiparticle pairs from empty space (from nothing)? Can this be the explanation of the origin of the entire universe?

I’ll wager that antiparticles would probably go far in explaining how clouds get their charge but I can’t see their relationship to the above. Also, I think we need to distinguish between "empty space" and "void"... what exactly is contained in your idea of "empty space"? All the elements necessary to produce a "big bang" by any chance? :lol:

I appreciate the serious attempt to write something interesting as opposed to all the bollocks I’ve read in the last 15 pages of the thread.

Your ideas seem to be a mix of “big bang” theory and a touch of Infinite Universe Theory but the marriage is not there.

http://www.scientificphilosophy.com/Downloads/IUT.pdf
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Postby bill cobbett » Fri May 08, 2009 1:11 am

We've known since the '20s that the Universe is expanding. This is the simplest observational basis of Big Bang. Wind the clock backwards and the Uni gets progressively smaller, denser and hotter. It doesn't get up to infinite values of temp and density but it does get ginormously hot and very, very tiny.

The infinities that Big Bang predicts in the first microseconds are a clue that the theory (although it applies at all other times) isn't a good description of these first microseconds. Infinite temps require an infinite energy which isn't available in a finite universe. In the first few microseconds the theory needs quantum mechanical effects to reduce temps and densities to finite ones.

For those who find it hard to credit the idea that there is no such thing as nothing that B posts above - it's been confirmed experimentally thousands of times since the '50s that "empty" space, that nothing, is in reality a birthplace for myriads of matter/antimatter particles each existing for a tiny time before colliding and vanishing. Create the conditions in which matter/antimatter can't recombine and vanish and you've created real matter in the real world out of nothing.
:lol:
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Postby bill cobbett » Fri May 08, 2009 1:55 am

The "conditions" in which virtual matter/antimatter particles can't recombine and have to become real particles in the real world?

Big Bang as modified by Inflationary Theory - The Universe inflates from something very, very, very tiny to something the size of our Solar System in 0.004 seconds which leads to the real biggy....part of the answer to
Life and the Universe and Everything...

That's a rate of inflation which is many, many times faster than the speed of light! To which some will say nothing can travel faster than c. - and they'd be right, "nothing" can travel faster than c , "empty" space can travel faster and the virtual matter/antimatter go along for the ride but at such a speed that they can't recombine with their partner and disappear and have to become real particles in the real world.

:D
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