Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

The ruling is not about who's rights are 'paramount' in terms of current users and pre 74 owners as far as I can see and certainly not in the context of a settlement? THe ruling was about enfocment in EU states other than RoC that made orignal ruling.

That is not how the "Bar Council" of the "TRNC" sees it:

“Politics has been mixed into the latest court decision and property rights have been held above all other rights.”

While the Law Office of the Republic also sees the ECJ verdict as having important implications for displaced Cypriot's property rights:

“The ECJ’s ruling allows Cypriot displaced people to defend in an effective manner their property rights against the usurpers of their properties, before civil courts of the Republic”

If you read the ECJ ruling it gives the ultimate say of ownership with the ROC courts and crucially over-rides the "facts on the ground" created by the Turkish invasion:

"The claimant, in reliance on Cypriot legislation to the effect that property rights relating to the northern area subsisted in spite of the 1974 invasion and occupation, brought proceedings for, inter alia, the delivery up of the land, its restoration to its original state, and damages for unlawful possession."

So, of course the ECJ verdict will affect the talks and crucially the outline of a settlement. Why else is the north in such a panic over this verdict?

One of the reasons the Annan Plan was rejected was because of its property provisions effectively asking the G/Cs to pay compensation to refugees for land that had been seized from them by force.

Clearly, not all Greek Cypriot refugees will get their properties back and not all will wish to return, but there has to be a clear acknowledgment of their ownership rights, and some kind of mechanism that recognises their claim to the property even if it does not mean they can live there. There will also need to be an external body to provide compensation equivalent to the value of the land lost.

If the T/C vision of a settlement is one that denies Greek Cypriot's their ownership rights, in order that the Turks get to keep what they obtained by force, then we will get nowhere in the talks. And if all the hysteria in the north about this verdict is anything to go by, then T/Cs are apparently not so much interested in justice or freedom but see the aim of the talks as to hang on to their ill-gotten gains. This is pretty squalid if you ask me and will deservedly get them nowhere.

TCs have always acknowledged the right of GCs to their properties in the context of a comprehensive solution. We have always supported the GCs get return of land where possible, where not financial compensation at current day values or alternatively be offered TC land surrendered in the south. The important issues for us are BBF with a balanced and guaranteed power sharing structure.

Hermes are you Oracle? Please anwser honestly.

[boulio]

The important issues for us are BBF with a balanced and guaranteed power sharing structure.

PLEASE SEE MIKKIE 2 REPLY

[Viewpoint]

The important issues for us are BBF with a balanced and guaranteed power sharing structure.

PLEASE SEE MIKKIE 2 REPLY

Could you kindly quote it?

[boulio]

The whole point of democracy is to to give the individual the right to have their say.

It is not a question of voting in a particular way because you are a GC or a TC or a Wolf or a Lamb. This is largely dependant on the political parties that are established in any one country and in how those political parties are governed by law.

In the establishement of a state or country, political parties need to work under certain rules and conduct. It is this that will largely control how politics is run in any country. This is usually governed by a constitution. This would generally outlaw or marginalise certain extreme political groupings that could put public order into question.

In the case of Cyprus it would be quite feasible to have a constitution which would ensure that poltical parties would not be established based on racial or ethnic lines and to ensure that each party has fair representation of all communities on the island. In this way it is possible for all ethnic groups to have representation and would thus free up the idividual from the fear of being dominated by either one community or the other.

Under the current proposals for a solution, the TC fears mean that as a community, they wish to obtain a disproportionate say in the running of the country. On the flip side, the GC fear of being dominated by Turkey and TC's means that they want a state where they TC's have a share of power that is proportionate to their size.

This in itself has led to the forced bizonal aspet of the problem, which as we are now seeing, is unravelling after the ECJ ruling re the Orams, which has solidified the rights of property ownership in Cyprus.

[boulio]

VP,did you every read Alex Lordos survey at all,that you say most t/c think like you?

[Piratis]

Basically, the TC's need to understand that the original owner must have the last say in what happens to thier land.

I am sorry but I just do not accept that this has to be the case, morally or legaly or that is should be.

Mikkie2 is 100% right. Legally the original owner must have the last say in what happens to their own land. This is confirmed by several court rulings including rulings from the ECHR.

If you think your case can be different than say the case of Titina Loizidou, because of the X-Y-Z reasons then you also should have the right to take your case to the court or even the ECHR. If you are right then you will win the case.

So what is your problem exactly?

[Viewpoint]

Don't you feel ashamed to have elected a leader that lies in such a provocative manner?

To present the actual agreement made by the two communites post 74 under UN offices to allow anyone on either side who wanted to safely move to the other under UN supervision as the communities having made a population exchange agreement, is a cynical manipulation of reality designed to create a biased impression of the truth as possible about an actual reality.

Pretty much in the same way the claim below seeks to do the same about a different reality.

167.000 GC refugees forced out of north Cyprus at gun point, and 40.000 TCs who moved to the north in order to achieve the dream of partition they had since the 1950s.

Then there are the straight bald face lies not based on any reality at all, like TP's imfamous claim that no TC were killed between 63 and 74.

Both sides have and continue to seek to manipulate truth and reality to present their side as favourably as possible and the other as unfavourably as possible. At the indivdual level and at the highest political levels. This is unlikely to change. If we are ever going to get anywhere in discussions like these then in my opinion we have to stop playing this 'look how bad your side' game is , when in reality we have to know that ours are little different.

Yes the calim re population exchanges is outrageous but please lets not pretend that this is something only one side does.

Erolz do you deny that Taksim (partition) was since the 1950s (and remains until today) the desire of most TCs, and that they view anything else as being a compromise?

In the 1950s, even before the inter-communal conflict started, the TCs were demonstrating in the streets, with Turkish flags and maps showing a divided Cyprus, demanding partition. Do you deny this?

And nothing changed since then. "According to the poll, 80 per cent of Greek Cypriots want a unified state with a central government, while 71 per cent of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of two separate states with international recognition. "
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=45090

So in what way you dispute what I said?

80% of GCs want a unified state so they can dominate the hole island and reduce to TCs to minority status.

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

[Piratis]

Don't you feel ashamed to have elected a leader that lies in such a provocative manner?

To present the actual agreement made by the two communites post 74 under UN offices to allow anyone on either side who wanted to safely move to the other under UN supervision as the communities having made a population exchange agreement, is a cynical manipulation of reality designed to create a biased impression of the truth as possible about an actual reality.

Pretty much in the same way the claim below seeks to do the same about a different reality.

167.000 GC refugees forced out of north Cyprus at gun point, and 40.000 TCs who moved to the north in order to achieve the dream of partition they had since the 1950s.

Then there are the straight bald face lies not based on any reality at all, like TP's imfamous claim that no TC were killed between 63 and 74.

Both sides have and continue to seek to manipulate truth and reality to present their side as favourably as possible and the other as unfavourably as possible. At the indivdual level and at the highest political levels. This is unlikely to change. If we are ever going to get anywhere in discussions like these then in my opinion we have to stop playing this 'look how bad your side' game is , when in reality we have to know that ours are little different.

Yes the calim re population exchanges is outrageous but please lets not pretend that this is something only one side does.

Erolz do you deny that Taksim (partition) was since the 1950s (and remains until today) the desire of most TCs, and that they view anything else as being a compromise?

In the 1950s, even before the inter-communal conflict started, the TCs were demonstrating in the streets, with Turkish flags and maps showing a divided Cyprus, demanding partition. Do you deny this?

And nothing changed since then. "According to the poll, 80 per cent of Greek Cypriots want a unified state with a central government, while 71 per cent of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of two separate states with international recognition. "
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=45090

So in what way you dispute what I said?

80% of GCs want a unified state so they can dominate the hole island and reduce to TCs to minority status.

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

You demanded partition since the 50s, long before the GCs even had the ability to discriminate against your minority. In fact the only discrimination up until that point came from you against us. For 3 plus centuries.

Therefore you can have as many lame excuses as you want as to why you wanted partition. The fact is that you did, and you continue to want partition.

So don't equate those 40.000 TCs that moved to the occupied areas in order to realize their dream of partition, with the 167.000 GCs which were forced at gun point to abandon their homes.

[Sotos]

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

So the way not to be a minority is to kill and ethnically cleanse the majority? This is how a criminal like you thinks! The easiest way not to be a minority in Cyprus is if you didn't keep invading us and bringing your Settlers on our island!

[Lit]

Don't you feel ashamed to have elected a leader that lies in such a provocative manner?

To present the actual agreement made by the two communites post 74 under UN offices to allow anyone on either side who wanted to safely move to the other under UN supervision as the communities having made a population exchange agreement, is a cynical manipulation of reality designed to create a biased impression of the truth as possible about an actual reality.

Pretty much in the same way the claim below seeks to do the same about a different reality.

167.000 GC refugees forced out of north Cyprus at gun point, and 40.000 TCs who moved to the north in order to achieve the dream of partition they had since the 1950s.

Then there are the straight bald face lies not based on any reality at all, like TP's imfamous claim that no TC were killed between 63 and 74.

Both sides have and continue to seek to manipulate truth and reality to present their side as favourably as possible and the other as unfavourably as possible. At the indivdual level and at the highest political levels. This is unlikely to change. If we are ever going to get anywhere in discussions like these then in my opinion we have to stop playing this 'look how bad your side' game is , when in reality we have to know that ours are little different.

Yes the calim re population exchanges is outrageous but please lets not pretend that this is something only one side does.

Erolz do you deny that Taksim (partition) was since the 1950s (and remains until today) the desire of most TCs, and that they view anything else as being a compromise?

In the 1950s, even before the inter-communal conflict started, the TCs were demonstrating in the streets, with Turkish flags and maps showing a divided Cyprus, demanding partition. Do you deny this?

And nothing changed since then. "According to the poll, 80 per cent of Greek Cypriots want a unified state with a central government, while 71 per cent of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of two separate states with international recognition. "
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=45090

So in what way you dispute what I said?

80% of GCs want a unified state so they can dominate the hole island and reduce to TCs to minority status.

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

Do you have any official statistics that show 71 % of TC's want a two state solution? I think that number is greatly reduced if we take the settlers out of the equation. As far as GCs are concerned, they want (more than 80 percent) a just unified state where they are able to reside, work, invest in any part of this island...it has nothing to do with domination. GC's will never sign away or accept this defacto division. We do not accept it.