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[Tim Drayton]

If we want to do some Bible study, let us turn to Genesis 6, verses 1-4

(King James translation)

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

As you have said, as a Muslim you must as a matter of dogma 'believe' in the Old Testament. Well, how does this image of God in the Old Testament reconcile with the concept of Allah in Islam? This Old Testament God has children who lust after human women, marry them and have children with them. I thought that the Islamic Allah was an intangible, all-pervading being. How can such a being have sons who are capable of having sexual intercourse with humans?

[offlimits2]

muslim is not a muslim if he doesn't believe all previous Prophets , Messengers of God. (we are not talking about so called or illetrate or by-name muslim) .

i agree with u.. there are some muslims as there are christians too , who are just known by-name and are spreading the bad stereotyping about their faith.

good and bad both exist in all faiths, cultures, socities.

but i hope to interact with poeple who are open minded and share their thoughts if possible. if not .. even then its ok

By the same logic, a Christian is not a Christian unless he 'believes' in the Bible, i.e. the Old and New Testaments. If you want to limit your poll to Christians and exclude "illiterate or by-name" Christians then the result of the poll is a foregone conclusion. 100% must believe in both. There is no need even to ask. The whole exercise is tautologic.

Hey Tim,

thanks for the answer.. really appreicate it..
if i know it .. surely i wouldn't ask. but results of voting shows totally different.
but then , may be you are right. christians by name..


anyways..

if you are a Bible reader then i wanted to bring to your attention that my curiostiy and exploring different religions made me do the following .

i have just found out that Old testament is in Hebrew
and in old testament Mohammad is foretold by name..

being muslim, it was shocking for me but then i downloaded hebrew alphabets and Old testament in hebrew and checked it myself.





חכו ממתקים וכלו
מחמדים זה דודי
וזה רעי בנות
ירושלם׃


songs of solomon 5:16

In the King James translation of the Bible:

Songs of Solomon 5:16

His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.

Sorry, no mention of Mohammad there!

i thought you said you are an athiest

but never mind..

that is why i gave you Hebrew version of Bible quote there.
so that you can know that name can not be translated and in original version (hebrew) its written.. and then greek and english and all other languages changed the name by meaning..


for example my name is "Asad" which in arabic.. and in english. it means lion.. are you going to call me "hey lion"
of course not.
or for example "bush" means in hindi... "jhari"
in legal documents you can not change the name to the meaning of name. you have to present the name


i gave you hebrew quote. and also i gave u like to wiki page .. how to read hebrew..

do this effort to understand the fact.

thanks

[Tim Drayton]

muslim is not a muslim if he doesn't believe all previous Prophets , Messengers of God. (we are not talking about so called or illetrate or by-name muslim) .

i agree with u.. there are some muslims as there are christians too , who are just known by-name and are spreading the bad stereotyping about their faith.

good and bad both exist in all faiths, cultures, socities.

but i hope to interact with poeple who are open minded and share their thoughts if possible. if not .. even then its ok

By the same logic, a Christian is not a Christian unless he 'believes' in the Bible, i.e. the Old and New Testaments. If you want to limit your poll to Christians and exclude "illiterate or by-name" Christians then the result of the poll is a foregone conclusion. 100% must believe in both. There is no need even to ask. The whole exercise is tautologic.

Hey Tim,

thanks for the answer.. really appreicate it..
if i know it .. surely i wouldn't ask. but results of voting shows totally different.
but then , may be you are right. christians by name..


anyways..

if you are a Bible reader then i wanted to bring to your attention that my curiostiy and exploring different religions made me do the following .

i have just found out that Old testament is in Hebrew
and in old testament Mohammad is foretold by name..

being muslim, it was shocking for me but then i downloaded hebrew alphabets and Old testament in hebrew and checked it myself.





חכו ממתקים וכלו
מחמדים זה דודי
וזה רעי בנות
ירושלם׃


songs of solomon 5:16

In the King James translation of the Bible:

Songs of Solomon 5:16

His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.

Sorry, no mention of Mohammad there!

i thought you said you are an athiest

but never mind..

that is why i gave you Hebrew version of Bible quote there.
so that you can know that name can not be translated and in original version (hebrew) its written.. and then greek and english and all other languages changed the name by meaning..


for example my name is "Asad" which in arabic.. and in english. it means lion.. are you going to call me "hey lion"
of course not.
or for example "bush" means in hindi... "jhari"
in legal documents you can not change the name to the meaning of name. you have to present the name


i gave you hebrew quote. and also i gave u like to wiki page .. how to read hebrew..

do this effort to understand the fact.

thanks

How strangely brainwashed you are! An atheist can open the Bible and quote from it. One only has to be literate. How sad you are.

So what. There is a word in Hebrew that sounds a bit like 'Mohammad', and it is to be found somewhere in the Old Testament. Wow.

[offlimits2]

of course.. i admire it if you are an athiest and still looking for truth , reality and you quote from Books of God.

yes, but Tim.. co-incidence can be once.. but Prophet Jesus didn't mention coming of Mohammad only once..
in Old testament Moses fortold us by name. but in New testament.. there are events mentioned also how Mohammad will speak, will move from one city to another.

i will quote you next verse. which will again give confirmation:

Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).

Deuteronomy 33
1: And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
2: And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.


Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.

Psalms 84
4: Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.
5: Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6: Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.



Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.

Isaiah 42
11: Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

[Tim Drayton]

Let us look again that quote:

Deuteronomy 33
1: And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
2: And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Here we have the LORD moving from one place to another. Yet the Allah of Islam is transcendant - he is in all places at the same time. He cannot move from, say, Sinai to Seir and appear in one place and at one time, as this Old Testament God does. However, as you rightly say, a dogmatic Muslim is obliged to believe in all of this literally. This is a contradiction.

As for the following assertion:

Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.

Psalms 84
4: Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.
5: Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6: Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

Somewhere in the Old Testament there is a reference to 'moving through the valley of Baca" and somehow this is supposed to be a reference to the Haj. Pure supposition. That one is really clutching at straws.

[offlimits2]

how about this TIM.


Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God's help) coming from Te'man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina was none but prophet Muhammad.

Indeed the incident of the migration of the prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. That section foretold as well about the battle of Badr in which the few ill-armed faithful miraculously defeated the "mighty" men of Ke'dar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned -to Islam.


please explain this as well.

[Free Spirit]

Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God's help) coming from Te'man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J..

So he's coming from Medina which is a market, there are markets all over the world that it could be north of.

[Me Ed]

Offlimits2, sorry your poll did not work out as you planned.

However, your poll indicated your lack of understanding of Gods relationship with man.

You see, if this is what you believe, God gave Adam everything including immortality, but man rejected this.

Then God gave man a set of rules (10 commandments and Leviticus) to follow or face death. Man rejected this.

Then God sent his son.

what you fail to realise is that the old and new testament document Gods obviously changing relationship with man.

Therefore you blindly don't eat said meats and pray said number of times a day, but the underlying message of Christ is that whist you pre-occupy youself with this ridiclous dogma, and even you who was made in Gods image must realise that this will never make you a better person.

[Free Spirit]

Offlimits2, sorry your poll did not work out as you planned.

However, your poll indicated your lack of understanding of Gods relationship with man.

You see, if this is what you believe, God gave Adam everything including immortality, but man rejected this.

Then God gave man a set of rules (10 commandments and Leviticus) to follow or face death. Man rejected this.

Then God sent his son.

what you fail to realise is that the old and new testament document Gods obviously changing relationship with man.

Therefore you blindly don't eat said meats and pray said number of times a day, but the underlying message of Christ is that whist you pre-occupy youself with this ridiclous dogma, and even you who was made in Gods image must realise that this will never make you a better person.

None of it applies to me; I'm left handed, according to offlimits2 the teachings only apply to right handed people.

[offlimits2]

Offlimits2, sorry your poll did not work out as you planned.

However, your poll indicated your lack of understanding of Gods relationship with man.

You see, if this is what you believe, God gave Adam everything including immortality, but man rejected this.

Then God gave man a set of rules (10 commandments and Leviticus) to follow or face death. Man rejected this.

Then God sent his son.

what you fail to realise is that the old and new testament document Gods obviously changing relationship with man.

Therefore you blindly don't eat said meats and pray said number of times a day, but the underlying message of Christ is that whist you pre-occupy youself with this ridiclous dogma, and even you who was made in Gods image must realise that this will never make you a better person.

do you know about this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea


it is long document but ..
issue arrises here
1- 325 AD was decided by council weather to declare Jesus as son of God or not
2- dates of celebration