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New Air-defence pact signed with Greece

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Hatter » Mon May 04, 2009 4:44 pm

AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:all states have a right to defend their airspace, but given that the flights in and out of Ercan have been going on since the mid-70s they can hardly say that the aircraft was a threat if it is following the usual routes.


It is still a violation of sovereign airspace and given this fact, then Cyprus would be justified with regaining control of her airspace as recognized by ICAO.

Sure there would be an outcry of condemnation to any country that downs an airliner.
But alas, Cyprus just creates one precedent after another and our situation just gets worse and worse.


Outcry (perhaps as an absolute minimum from a country that hates Turkey more then the RoC) and if a THY aircraft an act of war.

PS not sure what you mean by "But most other countries couldn't care less about that."? :?


Some countries have actually ratified intercept procedures for commercial airliners which actually means that they WILL shoot down a commercial airliner if they have to. These procedures also apply to locally registered aircraft.

There would be an international outcry if one of these countries actually downs an intercepted aircraft which does not comply with intercept orders. But that country would not be concerned with the international outcry as there is bugger all the UN or ICAO can do about it, and that is a fact.


Apart from the fact that the world would see that downing an airliner, that is flying a regular route, as mass murder - we both know that RoC is not likely to do this anyway - but even if the UN and ICAO can do nothing public opinion would force other governments to act, and therefore possibly the UN and ICAO.



Regular route? a route that conravenes ICAO rules and endangers air traffic in the FIR?
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Postby Paphitis » Mon May 04, 2009 4:47 pm

AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:all states have a right to defend their airspace, but given that the flights in and out of Ercan have been going on since the mid-70s they can hardly say that the aircraft was a threat if it is following the usual routes.


It is still a violation of sovereign airspace and given this fact, then Cyprus would be justified with regaining control of her airspace as recognized by ICAO.

Sure there would be an outcry of condemnation to any country that downs an airliner.
But alas, Cyprus just creates one precedent after another and our situation just gets worse and worse.


Outcry (perhaps as an absolute minimum from a country that hates Turkey more then the RoC) and if a THY aircraft an act of war.

PS not sure what you mean by "But most other countries couldn't care less about that."? :?


Some countries have actually ratified intercept procedures for commercial airliners which actually means that they WILL shoot down a commercial airliner if they have to. These procedures also apply to locally registered aircraft.

There would be an international outcry if one of these countries actually downs an intercepted aircraft which does not comply with intercept orders. But that country would not be concerned with the international outcry as there is bugger all the UN or ICAO can do about it, and that is a fact.


Apart from the fact that the world would see that downing an airliner, that is flying a regular route, as mass murder - we both know that RoC is not likely to do this anyway - but even if the UN and ICAO can do nothing public opinion would force other governments to act, and therefore possibly the UN and ICAO.


Let me make myself very clear.

There are some countries willing to down a commercial airliner in their airspace if it is deemed necessary and those countries, mine included, could not give a fuck about public opinion or whether you consider it mass murder.

I don't doubt that Cyprus would not do it, but this is main reason why Cyprus is in the situation it is today because Turkey knows full well that Cypriots don't have the back bone to stand up for themselves.

Those airliners flying regular routes into Tymbou are actually violating Cypriot National Airspace, so there is nothing ICAO or the UN could do if Cyprus actually had the means to start intercepting commercial airliners.

Cyprus would just be attempting to regain control of its FIR and national airspace and there is nothing illegal about that.
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Postby AWE » Mon May 04, 2009 5:14 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Let me make myself very clear.

There are some countries willing to down a commercial airliner in their airspace if it is deemed necessary and those countries, mine included, could not give a fuck about public opinion or whether you consider it mass murder.

I don't doubt that Cyprus would not do it, but this is main reason why Cyprus is in the situation it is today because Turkey knows full well that Cypriots don't have the back bone to stand up for themselves.

Those airliners flying regular routes into Tymbou are actually violating Cypriot National Airspace, so there is nothing ICAO or the UN could do if Cyprus actually had the means to start intercepting commercial airliners.

Cyprus would just be attempting to regain control of its FIR and national airspace and there is nothing illegal about that.


Of course, the Aus, UK, USA and many others will shoot down an airliner "if it is deemed necessary" and they would have the right to do so - if it had turned off it's beacon, was not responding to calls, and on a path that diverted from the normal routes i.e. the very real possibility of a 9/11 repeat would be present.

But downing an airliner on a regular route, recognised or not but flown since 1975, would if a Turkish aircraft be counted by Turkey as an act of war, if a TRNC aircraft very good reason for the TCs to lose any trust they have in the RoC/GCs, and by international public opinion as mass murder.
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Re: New Air-defence pact signed with Greece

Postby EPSILON » Mon May 04, 2009 5:29 pm

YFred wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
YFred wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
YFred wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
DT. wrote:Includes the monitoring of the illegal Tymbou airport.

http://www.politis-news.com/cgibin/hweb ... V=articles


Great to see Cyprus and Greece enter a new era of air defence cooperation.

In reality, there is no other option but to defend all of the Nicosia FIR particularly if the peace talks come to a close.

Cyprus could use some HAF resources to intercept and escort even airline passenger aircraft from the legitimate Nicosia FIR. Their is no international law that could prevent Cyprus from regaining control of her very own airspace.

If Greece is able to intercept and defend the Athens FIR from countless daily TAF incursions into their FIR and national airspace, then there is no reason why Cyprus should not do the same when the political climate changes.

Fantastic, lets hope they come to your aid quicker than last time, assuming that they get out of their bases.

Cross over to the TRNC airspace and escort planes and it will not be just flu you'll be catching you little swine.


This is a cooperation pact and rest assured that the Cyprus National Guard is able to shoot down a passenger aircraft on approach to Tymbou within her own sovereign airspace.

And with this Air Defence Pact between Cyprus and Greece, the Cyprus National Guard is set to obtain more goodies in the very near future.

So my prediction of war may not be far away then?
Did you say shoot down a passenger aircraft?

Will you be lending them some of your australian, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons too?


Shooting down passenger aircraft is inevitable if it violates our national airspace and flies towards our cities. We would even shoot down our own passenger aircraft if need be. September 11 changed everything and it is about time Cyprus started to stand up for herself instead of negotiating with invaders and looters.

You are one sick - dir individual. I gather you are a pilot. All I can say is that I hope you just fly for crop spraying otherwise sik some help from a psychiatrist dear boy - you have death all over in your mind.


Maybe to the same psychiatrist where Turkish soldiers who raped very old women during the invasion were sent to?
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Re: New Air-defence pact signed with Greece

Postby EPSILON » Mon May 04, 2009 5:35 pm

YFred wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
DT. wrote:Includes the monitoring of the illegal Tymbou airport.

http://www.politis-news.com/cgibin/hweb ... V=articles


Great to see Cyprus and Greece enter a new era of air defence cooperation.

In reality, there is no other option but to defend all of the Nicosia FIR particularly if the peace talks come to a close.

Cyprus could use some HAF resources to intercept and escort even airline passenger aircraft from the legitimate Nicosia FIR. Their is no international law that could prevent Cyprus from regaining control of her very own airspace.

If Greece is able to intercept and defend the Athens FIR from countless daily TAF incursions into their FIR and national airspace, then there is no reason why Cyprus should not do the same when the political climate changes.

Fantastic, lets hope they come to your aid quicker than last time, assuming that they get out of their bases.

Cross over to the TRNC airspace and escort planes and it will not be just flu you'll be catching you little swine.


The surprise this time will be extra ordinary and very funny my friend-keep sleepping on your victory against some trators in 1974 and the wake up will be of the best in your life!!!!
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Postby DT. » Mon May 04, 2009 5:43 pm

Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:all states have a right to defend their airspace, but given that the flights in and out of Ercan have been going on since the mid-70s they can hardly say that the aircraft was a threat if it is following the usual routes.


It is still a violation of sovereign airspace and given this fact, then Cyprus would be justified with regaining control of her airspace as recognized by ICAO.

Sure there would be an outcry of condemnation to any country that downs an airliner.
But alas, Cyprus just creates one precedent after another and our situation just gets worse and worse.


Outcry (perhaps as an absolute minimum from a country that hates Turkey more then the RoC) and if a THY aircraft an act of war.

PS not sure what you mean by "But most other countries couldn't care less about that."? :?


Some countries have actually ratified intercept procedures for commercial airliners which actually means that they WILL shoot down a commercial airliner if they have to. These procedures also apply to locally registered aircraft.

There would be an international outcry if one of these countries actually downs an intercepted aircraft which does not comply with intercept orders. But that country would not be concerned with the international outcry as there is bugger all the UN or ICAO can do about it, and that is a fact.


Apart from the fact that the world would see that downing an airliner, that is flying a regular route, as mass murder - we both know that RoC is not likely to do this anyway - but even if the UN and ICAO can do nothing public opinion would force other governments to act, and therefore possibly the UN and ICAO.


Let me make myself very clear.

There are some countries willing to down a commercial airliner in their airspace if it is deemed necessary and those countries, mine included, could not give a fuck about public opinion or whether you consider it mass murder.

I don't doubt that Cyprus would not do it, but this is main reason why Cyprus is in the situation it is today because Turkey knows full well that Cypriots don't have the back bone to stand up for themselves.

Those airliners flying regular routes into Tymbou are actually violating Cypriot National Airspace, so there is nothing ICAO or the UN could do if Cyprus actually had the means to start intercepting commercial airliners.

Cyprus would just be attempting to regain control of its FIR and national airspace and there is nothing illegal about that.


Nothing to do with Cypriot's backbone. :roll:
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Postby YFred » Mon May 04, 2009 9:15 pm

kurupetos wrote:
YFred wrote:Does anybody know how much it will cost?


The expenses will be paid by EU funding, the money originally planned to be given to the TCs. :cry:

Betraki, please read it carefully, it says they will be paid “in euros” not “by Europeans”. I know I can't read Greek, but never mind, anyway, any chance of the figure for cost? Will they be bolted down on the ground or on Gashas for easy transport to the north or even just across the border to Lurucina to save cost of transport?
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Postby Paphitis » Tue May 05, 2009 2:05 am

DT. wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
AWE wrote:all states have a right to defend their airspace, but given that the flights in and out of Ercan have been going on since the mid-70s they can hardly say that the aircraft was a threat if it is following the usual routes.


It is still a violation of sovereign airspace and given this fact, then Cyprus would be justified with regaining control of her airspace as recognized by ICAO.

Sure there would be an outcry of condemnation to any country that downs an airliner.
But alas, Cyprus just creates one precedent after another and our situation just gets worse and worse.


Outcry (perhaps as an absolute minimum from a country that hates Turkey more then the RoC) and if a THY aircraft an act of war.

PS not sure what you mean by "But most other countries couldn't care less about that."? :?


Some countries have actually ratified intercept procedures for commercial airliners which actually means that they WILL shoot down a commercial airliner if they have to. These procedures also apply to locally registered aircraft.

There would be an international outcry if one of these countries actually downs an intercepted aircraft which does not comply with intercept orders. But that country would not be concerned with the international outcry as there is bugger all the UN or ICAO can do about it, and that is a fact.


Apart from the fact that the world would see that downing an airliner, that is flying a regular route, as mass murder - we both know that RoC is not likely to do this anyway - but even if the UN and ICAO can do nothing public opinion would force other governments to act, and therefore possibly the UN and ICAO.


Let me make myself very clear.

There are some countries willing to down a commercial airliner in their airspace if it is deemed necessary and those countries, mine included, could not give a fuck about public opinion or whether you consider it mass murder.

I don't doubt that Cyprus would not do it, but this is main reason why Cyprus is in the situation it is today because Turkey knows full well that Cypriots don't have the back bone to stand up for themselves.

Those airliners flying regular routes into Tymbou are actually violating Cypriot National Airspace, so there is nothing ICAO or the UN could do if Cyprus actually had the means to start intercepting commercial airliners.

Cyprus would just be attempting to regain control of its FIR and national airspace and there is nothing illegal about that.


Nothing to do with Cypriot's backbone. :roll:


My apologies DT!

It does not have anything to do with Cypriots backbone. It is our beloved Cypriot Politicians that lack a back bone.

Diekditiki politiki my arse! :lol:
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Postby Paphitis » Tue May 05, 2009 3:21 am

AWE wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Let me make myself very clear.

There are some countries willing to down a commercial airliner in their airspace if it is deemed necessary and those countries, mine included, could not give a fuck about public opinion or whether you consider it mass murder.

I don't doubt that Cyprus would not do it, but this is main reason why Cyprus is in the situation it is today because Turkey knows full well that Cypriots don't have the back bone to stand up for themselves.

Those airliners flying regular routes into Tymbou are actually violating Cypriot National Airspace, so there is nothing ICAO or the UN could do if Cyprus actually had the means to start intercepting commercial airliners.

Cyprus would just be attempting to regain control of its FIR and national airspace and there is nothing illegal about that.


Of course, the Aus, UK, USA and many others will shoot down an airliner "if it is deemed necessary" and they would have the right to do so - if it had turned off it's beacon, was not responding to calls, and on a path that diverted from the normal routes i.e. the very real possibility of a 9/11 repeat would be present.

But downing an airliner on a regular route, recognised or not but flown since 1975, would if a Turkish aircraft be counted by Turkey as an act of war, if a TRNC aircraft very good reason for the TCs to lose any trust they have in the RoC/GCs, and by international public opinion as mass murder.


I can tell you for a fact, that the shooting down of an airliner, under certain circumstances is considered a sovereign right of a nation.

And now for the evidence:

The following document outlines the EMERGNENCY PROCEDURES on INTERCEPTION.

This document is part of the ICAO approved Australian ERSA EMERG document of The Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority,

Section 5.12 clearly shows the Emergency Procedures to be followed by aircraft if intercepted by fighter aircraft.

Any aircraft which do not follow these procedures will be destroyed, including passenger aircraft which have violated the FIR, deviated from the cleared flight path, or violated Defence Restricted Areas or Control Zones. Aircraft that deviate from their flight path and do not respond when intercepted will be deemed as hijacked and hence "hostile" and will be destroyed.

Image

The following document also implies the intent of the Australian Defence Force to destroy any aircraft which do not conform to any security directives. It is a letter outlining the special approvals for my employer to operate within a Restricted Area of airspace (R902) during the APEC summit in Sydney. Non compliance of the Air Defence Identification Zone procedures in this airspace will result in INTERCEPTION, and any non compliance with the EMERGENCY PROCEDURES would deem the aircraft as hostile. The RAAF will then destroy the aircraft, even if that aircraft was a QANTAS 747 airliner carrying 400+ passengers. During this period, F18 aircraft were on 24/7 patrol of the airspace and with additional aircraft on high alert ready for the possibility of shooting down any aircraft at a moment's notice. All this for George Bush official visit to Australia in 2007 for the APEC summit.

The blacked out parts basically just hide my current employer and hence ID.

Image

Image

Image

When an aircraft enters Restricted or Prohibited Airspace, then the recognised authority does have the right to shoot it down provided that the rules of engagement are met, and the aircraft has had sufficient opportunity to follow the procedures as set down by the Recognised Authority's rules on rogue aircraft.

So what could prohibit Cyprus declaring her northern airspace as prohibited or restricted airspace given the fact that the RoC is the only ICAO recognised authority in Cyprus?

Australia is willing to defend her FIR at all costs, and so are many other countries. It appears that Cyprus however is unwilling to STOP FIR violations which are occurring daily.

But downing an airliner on a regular route, recognised or not but flown since 1975, would if a Turkish aircraft be counted by Turkey as an act of war, if a TRNC aircraft very good reason for the TCs to lose any trust they have in the RoC/GCs, and by international public opinion as mass murder.


I will now answer your question above.

Firstly, you are quite right when you state that Cyprus will not go down this path as other countries have done. This is really a major problem in my opinion and the reason why Cypriots will never achieve a just and viable solution to the Cyprus Problem. Cypriot politicians are unfit to protect the interests of their citizens, and in fact I will even go further and state that Cypriot politicians are even unfit to lead an East African Third World country. This is the issue I wish to highlight.

Many times you hear Cypriot politicians refer to "DIEKDITIKI POLITIKI" and yet everything is the exact opposite to what they preach.

Cypriot Politicians are incompetent which means everything will fall and rest on the shoulders of Cypriot Citizens as they are the last line of defence for their politicians incompetencies just like they were in 2004.

But let's say for argument sake that Cyprus did proceed with asserting sovereignty over ALL her airspace and actually downed an aircraft. This act may well be deemed as an Act of War by Turkey, but in reality I believe Turkey would be powerless to do anything because the superpowers and NATO would not allow it. It may even motivate the international community to intervene in Cyprus militarily. And yet this may not be the case either as I'm only speculating. It would be a massive risk to down an aircraft approaching Tymbou and it may or may not backfire. What is certain is that Cyprus does have the legal right to regain control of her northern national airspace and this is the point I wish to get across, as well as highlight our politicians incompetencies with the handling of the Cyprus Issue.

Cypriot Politicians just set one precedent after another, just like they did when in 1975 they did absolutely NOTHING to prevent Commercial Airliners operating to Tymbou. Cyprus has never had a leader capable of making the hard decisions necessary to defend her sovereignty and this is clearly why the world and the UN basically does not care enough about The Cyprus Issue to do anything about it because the world has much bigger problems atm such as Iran, North Korea, the Israeli/Palestinian Crisis, Afghanistan, emergence of Taliban in Pakistan, and Iraq.
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Postby AWE » Tue May 05, 2009 7:24 am

I don't disagree that every country have the right to defend it's airspace against threats but an aircraft flying in to/out of Ercan would not be considered a threat by the rest of the world.

Given the the DPRK only threatens to shoot down civilian aircraft, and the only aircraft shoot downs in recent times were at the height of the cold war, by accident or by terrorist groups, LTTE for instance, and not by modern European states the act of doing so would be a "massive risk" and would almost certainly "backfire"on the RoC. The ROC would be viewed as a terrorist state, even the Taliban did not shoot down civilian aircraft, and would make partition permanent.
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