Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Put aside those "stealing" and "thieves" rhetoric, the court verdict regarding Orams Case greatly damages bi-zonality principle. That's the problem for overwhelming majority of TCs. The difficulties and infeasibility of starting from scratch for second and even third time, forcing people to leave the places they have been inhabiting for 45, 30, 20, 10 years; are other aspects that standing right in front of this meaningless court verdict.

Forced bi-zonality will not work anyway! The EU acquis will cancel it. Agree?

Agree. Let's see if we would overcome the difficulties in front of it's practicality. If majority of TCs accept to become refugees one more time, there's no problem for me. Anyway, I have 1 year to leave this wasteland that illitearacy and self-interest rules...

[insan]

This is the opinion of "Cyprus mail" on the matter:

Greek Cypriot property rights must be recognised

IT’S HARD to have any sympathy for David and Linda Orams, or for any of the other expats living on Greek Cypriot properties in the north whose peaceful retirement has been disturbed by the ruling of the European Court of Justice, backing a Nicosia court’s judgement against the British couple who had built a villa on land belonging to refugee Meletis Apostolides.

It would have been different had the case targeted Turkish Cypriots, themselves displaced or in some way victims of the long-running Cyprus conflict. But the Orams, and hundreds of others like them, are effectively guilty of buying stolen property, snatching up the cheap deal offered ‘off the back of a lorry’ while wilfully closing their eyes to the reasons for such a bargain. The least they deserve is to sweat about the future of their ill-gotten gains.

The reaction of Turkish Cypriot politicians is as predictable as it is in bad faith. To say that the welcome for the ruling in the south proves the Greek Cypriots are not serious about reunification is frankly ludicrous. What then is one to say about the orgy of construction and speculation in Greek Cypriot properties in the five years since the failed Annan plan referendum? Has that been a sign of good will? Does it show commitment to reunification in a common homeland?

Did Messrs Talat and Eroglu really expect the European Court of Justice to issue a political judgment, one that would suspend the rule of law in the name of realpolitik? Perhaps they did, much in the same way as Turkey often seems to see its harmonisation process with the European Union as a game of give and take where its strategic weight bears heavily on the scales, rather than as the wholesale adoption – without negotiation – of a body of Community law.

The truth is that the ruling is a severe blow to the north, but if anything it should add urgency to the negotiations rather than bring them to their knees. For what it shows, once again, is the unsustainability of the status quo. For those in the north who thought that in the wake of the Greek Cypriot ‘no’ they could just go it alone and raise a finger across the Green Line, it is a reminder that a future without a settlement is one of uncertainty and continued illegality in the eyes of the international community.

And while the Greek Cypriots may hail the ruling as a vindication of their rights, Meletis Apostolides will know that he is no closer to reclaiming his property than he was a week ago. As President Christofias acknowledged, the Cyprus problem will not be solved by a court decision, however favourable it may be.

Of course, the decision will affect the talks. If only for domestic political consumption, Talat and his team will have to sulk. In response, the Greek Cypriot side must resist the temptation to gloat. And we hope that after a while matters can return to normal – if there is such a thing.

But the Orams ruling must not be forgotten, for it highlights the importance of property as the issue on which any settlement will succeed or fail. One of the greatest undoings of the Annan plan lay in its property provisions, effectively asking the Greek Cypriots to pay compensation to their own refugees for land that had been seized from them by force. (At least the compensation at the so-called property commission is paid out by Turkey.)

Clearly, not all Greek Cypriot refugees will go home, but there has to be an unquestioned acknowledgment of their ownership rights, a mechanism that recognises their title to the property even if it does not necessarily allow them to occupy it, and an externally-funded compensation package that matches the value of the land lost.

If Mr Talat’s vision of a settlement is one that rides roughshod over Greek Cypriot property rights, then he must realise that it will fail. If he feels so strongly that unscrupulous British buyers should have a right to plunder Greek Cypriot property, then it should fail.

If that is the premise on which he is negotiating, then the two sides are talking at cross-purposes, and the European Court ruling is indeed a blow to the entire process. But if he is genuine in his desire for a solution, he will realise that a solution must recognise the property rights of all Cypriots. He will not waste his sympathy on undeserving expats, he will play to the gallery for a week or two, and he will return to the process with ever-greater urgency, spurred by the realisation that a legal limbo can only be to the detriment of all.

Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009

So, if the owner of the villa was a TC refugee, there won't be any problems? Still meaningless. What if the TC refugee sold Meletis land to a British TC and the owner of that villa was a British TC. Meletis wouldn't ask demolishment of that villa and restitiution of the land belongs to him? Still meaningless but let everyone take whatever actions they wish and then watch the chaos on both sides of Cyprus.

[T_C]

I just fear that this judgement will have the same effect on GCs in this referendum as did joining the EU back in 2004 had on the Annan Plan...

[T_C]

I just fear that this judgement will have the same effect on GCs in this referendum, as did joining the EU back in 2004 had on the Annan Plan...

[Hermes]

I just fear that this judgement will have the same effect on GCs in this referendum as did joining the EU back in 2004 had on the Annan Plan...

The Annan Plan is dead as are its property provisions. Now it looks like the "trnc' is officially and legally kaput. If you don't believe me just read this extract from the Cyprus Mail:

Hubert Faustmann, an international relations expert, described the ruling as a “huge blow” to the Turkish Cypriots which could prove to be “the kiss of death” in the long-term.

“It’s a huge success for the Greek Cypriots, which adds another layer of urgency to reach a settlement. It’s clear that without a solution, any Greek Cypriot, possibly with government help, can ask for their property back,” he said.

“It’s a vindication of the Greek Cypriot property position in the north, and anyone buying there will know about it. The north’s attractiveness will suffer and there is a huge hefty bill looming on Turkish Cypriots now,” he added.

The analyst said both leaders were still determined to find a solution through direct talks and not through the courts. But if the chance is passed, and more people start taking advantage of the Orams ruling, “in the long-run this could be the kiss of death for the north, where property is a huge source of income.”

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... 3&cat_id=1

The wonder is that the "TRNC's" legal advisers didn't see it coming. But then again, you did place your faith in Cherie Blair...

[Jerry]

Put aside those "stealing" and "thieves" rhetoric, the court verdict regarding Orams Case greatly damages bi-zonality principle. That's the problem for overwhelming majority of TCs. The difficulties and infeasibility of starting from scratch for second and even third time, forcing people to leave the places they have been inhabiting for 45, 30, 20, 10 years; are other aspects that standing right in front of this meaningless court verdict.

Insane, you have compounded the problem by selling our land to outsiders. In an atmosphere of goodwill it is likely that most property disputes could have been settled by legal exchange, compensation and some restitution but your "government", in an attempt to permanently divide the island, has presented us with fait accomplis that means refugees may have to move again. Had the Orams been Turkish Cypriots living in a modest house I think it is most unlikely that the case would have gone to court.

[T_C]

I just fear that this judgement will have the same effect on GCs in this referendum as did joining the EU back in 2004 had on the Annan Plan...

The Annan Plan is dead as are its property provisions. Now it looks like the "trnc' is officially and legally kaput. If you don't believe me just read this extract from the Cyprus Mail:

Hubert Faustmann, an international relations expert, described the ruling as a “huge blow” to the Turkish Cypriots which could prove to be “the kiss of death” in the long-term.

“It’s a huge success for the Greek Cypriots, which adds another layer of urgency to reach a settlement. It’s clear that without a solution, any Greek Cypriot, possibly with government help, can ask for their property back,” he said.

“It’s a vindication of the Greek Cypriot property position in the north, and anyone buying there will know about it. The north’s attractiveness will suffer and there is a huge hefty bill looming on Turkish Cypriots now,” he added.

The analyst said both leaders were still determined to find a solution through direct talks and not through the courts. But if the chance is passed, and more people start taking advantage of the Orams ruling, “in the long-run this could be the kiss of death for the north, where property is a huge source of income.”

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... 3&cat_id=1

The wonder is that the "TRNC's" legal advisers didn't see it coming. But then again, you did place your faith in Cherie Blair...

I don't see how that makes any difference Hermes (or should that be Oracle..)

The TRNC has always been legally "kaput" so what's new?? And as far as Turkey is concerned you can "ask" for your property back as much as you want..all this judgement will do is set the TRNC back 40 years, not make Turkey surrender the north!

As the GCs have said so themselves Turkey doesn't give a shit what happens to the TCs or their situation in Cyprus, all it cares about is holding on to the island, so short of giving them a free ticket to the EU nothing will persuade them to leave.

I don't think you've quite grasped how invasions work...they are going to have to gain something, either through the EU or you before they leave.

[insan]

Put aside those "stealing" and "thieves" rhetoric, the court verdict regarding Orams Case greatly damages bi-zonality principle. That's the problem for overwhelming majority of TCs. The difficulties and infeasibility of starting from scratch for second and even third time, forcing people to leave the places they have been inhabiting for 45, 30, 20, 10 years; are other aspects that standing right in front of this meaningless court verdict.

Insane, you have compounded the problem by selling our land to outsiders. In an atmosphere of goodwill it is likely that most property disputes could have been settled by legal exchange, compensation and some restitution but your "government", in an attempt to permanently divide the island, has presented us with fait accomplis that means refugees may have to move again. Had the Orams been Turkish Cypriots living in a modest house I think it is most unlikely that the case would have gone to court.

So, as long as a TC refugee is occupier, no problem but if TC refugee sells the land of GC refugee to a foreigner; it constitutes a problem and requires a legal action? Is it a type of xenophobia or arise from deep love and sympathy towards TC refugees and maybe non-refugee TCs?

[Jerry]

Put aside those "stealing" and "thieves" rhetoric, the court verdict regarding Orams Case greatly damages bi-zonality principle. That's the problem for overwhelming majority of TCs. The difficulties and infeasibility of starting from scratch for second and even third time, forcing people to leave the places they have been inhabiting for 45, 30, 20, 10 years; are other aspects that standing right in front of this meaningless court verdict.

Insane, you have compounded the problem by selling our land to outsiders. In an atmosphere of goodwill it is likely that most property disputes could have been settled by legal exchange, compensation and some restitution but your "government", in an attempt to permanently divide the island, has presented us with fait accomplis that means refugees may have to move again. Had the Orams been Turkish Cypriots living in a modest house I think it is most unlikely that the case would have gone to court.

So, as long as a TC refugee is occupier, no problem but if TC refugee sells the land of GC refugee to a foreigner; it constitutes a problem and requires a legal action? Is it a type of xenophobia or arise from deep love and sympathy towards TC refugees and maybe non-refugee TCs?

A TC refugee has to live somewhere even in a GC house in certain circumstances but that does not give him the right to "sell" it. Can't you see there is a huge difference between living in someone elses house and flogging it to a cheapskate carpetbagger. I don't understand the rest of your post, sorry.

[Viewpoint]

Miltiades can you not see a hardening of views? Do you think the "RoC" courts can now suspend a TC claim until a solution is found? If they do can you kindly tell me if you see any sign of how it would be for us in a united Cyprus?