Cyprus-Forum.com

[Jerry]

I'd be very interested to hear what a panel of international jurists (if such a thing exists) would have to say about that.


A panel of international jurists today, judging it as a new agreement under todays standards , or a panel of jurist then judging it from a contemporary perspective ?

In the context of a permanent agreement, by today's standards.

Again I can understand why you hold such a view. From a TC communites perspective they were necessary checks and balances that respected that as far as GC considered themselves Greek and part of the Greek people , then TC could validly consider themselves part of some other people than the Greek people and thus had to some degree or other a seperate right to self determination as a people, not the same as GC considering themselves part of the Greek people.

Essentialy they were agreements that reflected a world powers view that if GC were gonna to delcare they were part of the Greek people, then some recognition would have to be given that TC were not part of this people and had therefore a seperate right as a people to some degree and that was an unholy mess for the world power that they sought to avoid. So they sought to make us all accept we were part of the same unitary Cypriot people and in order to do that they had to give TC some guarantees as a community in this 'unitary' solution.

I do not think this was done in a spirit of spite or malice or punishment but in a genuine attempt to find a solution that met their own self interests and maintained some sembalance of balancing conflicting rights and desires of Cypriots that wanted very different things in and for Cyprus.

The colonial power must have known how these "checks and balances" would be received by the island's majority. Many GCs saw Turkish Cypriots as a legacy of Ottoman domination and the last thing they wanted was their democratic rights diluted by these "checks and balances" Instead of threatening partition in the event of non acceptance by Makarios in 1959 Britain should have insisted on its earlier plan of home rule now (in 1960) with a view to full indepenence later on. Britain wanted its bases and to hell with the conesequences for the natives, they left Cyprus in much the same way as they had retreated from Palestine a few years earlier.

[Viewpoint]

Let us all become serious, for the sake of this country’s children.

Last Tuesday’s ECJ ruling in the Apostolides v. Orams case came as a shock to many Cypriots north of the divide, and as a thing to celebrate for many of us (including myself) south of the divide.
As things are cooling down, 3 days now after the announcement of the court’s verdict, I believe it is time for all of us -north and south of the divide- to reflect on the situation and try to put things into the right perspective.

After the events of 1955-59, an unfettered independence was granted to Cyprus, in which the Turkish Cypriot community attained globally unprecedented for its size political leverage and power –in the grief and dissatisfaction of the larger Greek Cypriot community. The TC leadership, unwisely enough, demanded and /or attempted to make full use of those rights, an act which enhanced those GC feelings of grief and dissatisfaction, and elevated them to those of wrath and anger. Inevitably but still unwisely enough, the GC side was led to seek ways to unilaterally contain and diminish those rights, an effort that inevitably brought the 1963 /64 events, whose aftermath was rightfully seen as a GC political victory and an all out TC political defeat. There is no usefulness or a need to get into the details or into a now meaningless debate, as to what happened and what did not happen during that period. What is important here is for all of us to recognize that in the same way and manner that the TC side behaved arrogantly during the first post independence period (1960-63,) in the same or even worst way or manner the GC side behaved towards the TCs during the second such period, essentially seeking the complete political capitulation of the TC community.

This approach, not only did not produce the “desired” results, but it in fact backfired to a large extent, until we came to the events of 1974, whose aftermath amounted to a complete reversal of the situation. Now the TC side gained the political upper hand, and started behaving in exactly the same or even worst way to that in which the GC side behaved after the 1963 /64 events. Again this policy, on the part of the TC side this time, did not produce the “desire” results, and it gradually begun backfiring with small but steady legal and political victories from the part of the GC side. Thirty years down the road -since 1974, Cyprus made it into the EU as a full member, allowing in this way the GC side to begin balancing out the 1974 defeat. Three days ago, we have another (legitimate) fait accompli through the ECJ ruling, which can rightfully be seen as a final balancing out act between the two sides.

We now have a situation in which the TC side de facto occupies and posses –through the use of Turkey’s military might, a substantially larger part of Cyprus amounting to 36% of its territory; and the GC side de jure occupying and possessing the whole (100%) of Cyprus – through the use the internationally recognized and established, EU member RoC. We must both (sides) now admit that such a balance has rarely -if ever- existed in the past, a situation that does not allow any of the two sides to feel or claim that it maintains the upper hand against the other. Any of the two sides that will now do the next mistake of thinking or acting arrogantly and greedy, will be the one that will be the loser and will alone and by itself shift the balance in favor of the other!

We (both sides) have to become serious, reflect on the situation and put our priorities down, with one common denominator in place, ours and our children’s common future in this country. The mistakes, the arrogance, the greediness and the opportunisms of the past (equally by both sides,) should not be repeated.

The Cyprus problem will easily become solved if we both decide that we have to trust each other and provided that each one of us acknowledges and consolidates some fundamental factual elements that a solution will have to entail.

The Greek Cypriot side should acknowledge and consolidate the fact that even though it is the majority whose historical and cultural heritage stem equally from all parts of Cyprus, the historical circumstances and realities cannot possibly renter the Turkish Cypriots into the position or the status of just another ethnic minority, like the so many others that exist within all the nations across the globe. There will have to be a form of political equality in the overall running of the country, as well as a degree of local autonomy in the form of a zonal arrangement (federative state) in which the TCs will retain the numerical majority of residents.

The Turkish Cypriot side in its turn should acknowledge and consolidate the fact that even though the historical circumstances and realities allow it to demand, retain and enjoy the status of not just another ethnic minority within a larger state, but instead the status of a politically equal community; it still remains a numerical minority of only the 18% of the people of a country in which the GC majority’s historical and cultural heritage stem equally from all parts of Cyprus, and that any form of solution will also have to take this reality into consideration.

Unless the above two parallel facts and realities are correspondingly well acknowledged and consolidated by each one of the two sides (communities,) I do not see how a mutually agreed solution will ever become feasible. I have the conviction that the majority of people and political leadership in the Greek Cypriot society have already acknowledged and to a large extent consolidated our own part of the above equation. I am afraid the majority of the Turkish Cypriot community’s society and political leadership have yet to acknowledge and consolidate their own corresponding part of the equation, and there is plenty of evidence to prove this fact.

Have to say a great post, I have highlighted the area which is impossible for both sides, I just wanted to ask everyone how we can get both sides to trust each other as it will be a unique and original development.

[erolz3]

Instead of threatening partition in the event of non acceptance by Makarios in 1959 Britain should have insisted on its earlier plan of home rule now (in 1960) with a view to full indepenence later on.

Britain from as early as 1945 was trying to promote increased home / self rule in Cyprus under over all British ownership, first as an alternative to full indpendance and later as a means of leading to it. These attempts were consistently rejected by GC leaderships (and occasionaly by TC leaderships) from their first appearances , because they granted the TC community some say in the running of Cyprus as a community and as such undermined GC aspiritations for enosis (of all of cyprus and all cypriots). All British attempts at promoting home rule in Cyprus were undermined by Cypriots fearing that such would either establish a right of the TC community to some say as community in the future of Cyprus on the part of GC or that it would not on the part of TC.

Britain wanted its bases and to hell with the conesequences for the natives, they left Cyprus in much the same way as they had retreated from Palestine a few years earlier.

Certainly securing sovriegn bases was a key self interest for Britain following colonial rule. However they could have acheived this objective had they agreed to enosis or partition or the return of Cyprus to Turkey or any other possible solution. The idea that the British bases would be more secure if they brokered a purposefuly unstable solution that was guranteed to break down and lead to parties renaging on aspects of the agreements than if they created agreements that led to a stable situaton makes no logical sense. The fact is rightly or wrongly Britian was going to get her bases whatever happened after colonial rule and the more stable an agreement she managed to hand over the more secure those bases would be.

Having made the above posts I am however very aware that I have drifted far from Kifeas' original post and I feel that it is too imporant a thread to continue to participate in these tangental discussions, so please forgive me if I do not respond on these points in this threads any further. I would be more than happy to continue the discussion on a seperate thread.

[The Cypriot]

I just wanted to ask everyone how we can get both sides to trust each other as it will be a unique and original development.

Here's how...

Inhibit annoying, point-scoring, rabble-rousing, defeatist, wind-up merchants like you – self-confessed partionists, determined to undermine reconciliation efforts, hell-bent on proving to themselves and to the world that Cypriots aren't mature enough to develop understanding, empathy and mutual respect – well away from the trust building process.

It will be a unique and original development.

[Piratis]

The fact is rightly or wrongly Britian was going to get her bases whatever happened after colonial rule and the more stable an agreement she managed to hand over the more secure those bases would be.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion. Giving self-determination to Cyprus (which could lead to union with Greece) did not guarantee anything for the British in Cyprus. Nowhere is said that a former Colonialist should maintain sovereign bases in the former colony, and indeed Cyprus is the only former British Colony that the Colonialists maintained sovereign bases.

Turning the TCs against the majority and bringing Turkey in the game was essential for the British in order to gain from Cyprus what they didn't gain in any of the 10s of other colonies they had.

[Viewpoint]

I just wanted to ask everyone how we can get both sides to trust each other as it will be a unique and original development.

Here's how...

Inhibit annoying, point-scoring, rabble-rousing, defeatist, wind-up merchants like you – self-confessed partionists, determined to undermine reconciliation efforts, hell-bent on proving to themselves and to the world that Cypriots aren't mature enough to develop understanding, empathy and mutual respect – well away from the trust building process.

It will be a unique and original development.

Feel free to prove me wrong and produce a plan that will incorporate both sides demands, near enough impossible imho thats why I support agreed partition a clean break where neither side has to keep looking over their shoulders for that stab of a cold knife in their backs.

49 years and we havent found a solution, do you really thing we can find one now with even more complications and hardening fo views, this forum is a prime example ofthe chasm between the 2 sides and why you yourself with your typiva GC mindset will always prove me right.

[Oracle]

I just wanted to ask everyone how we can get both sides to trust each other as it will be a unique and original development.

Here's how...

Inhibit annoying, point-scoring, rabble-rousing, defeatist, wind-up merchants like you – self-confessed partionists, determined to undermine reconciliation efforts, hell-bent on proving to themselves and to the world that Cypriots aren't mature enough to develop understanding, empathy and mutual respect – well away from the trust building process.

It will be a unique and original development.

Feel free to prove me wrong and produce a plan that will incorporate both sides demands, near enough impossible imho thats why I support agreed partition a clean break where neither side has to keep looking over their shoulders for that stab of a cold knife in their backs.

49 years and we havent found a solution, do you really thing we can find one now with even more complications and hardening fo views, this forum is a prime example ofthe chasm between the 2 sides and why you yourself with your typiva GC mindset will always prove me right.

Just because we can't find a solution to suit "two communities" it doesn't mean the only option is to permanently have two communities. Either you agree to join the Human Race with us, or go and join those others in Turkey ...

Is this the wife VP or the hubby VP?

[The Cypriot]

I just wanted to ask everyone how we can get both sides to trust each other as it will be a unique and original development.

Feel free to prove me wrong and produce a plan that will incorporate both sides demands,

This thread is about building trust so stop interfering with your negativity. Your role is to undermine any signs of trust as soon as it appears; to the detriment of all Cypriots.

near enough impossible imho thats why I support agreed partition

No true Cypriot will agree to partition their homeland so this is a non-starter. A waste of time. What you support, what you stand for, is destruction of trust. Your every post is about that.

a clean break where neither side has to keep looking over their shoulders for that stab of a cold knife in their backs.

Put your knife away, VP, this thread is about building trust.

49 years and we havent found a solution, do you really thing we can find one now with even more complications and hardening fo views, this forum is a prime example ofthe chasm between the 2 sides and why you yourself with your typiva GC mindset will always prove me right.

It's a chasm between the likes of you (see detailed description above) and those Cypriots who will never give up hope of a better future for their homeland and who reject the status quo. And my open mindset – which is typical of nothing but my own world view – is the opposite to your closed mindset.

Now run along from this thread. It's about building trust and you're not capable.

[Viewpoint]

The Cypriot

This thread is about building trust so stop interfering with your negativity. Your role is to undermine any signs of trust as soon as it appears; to the detriment of all Cypriots.

So go ahead and build trust, you are not doing a very good job and continue to contirbute to the negativity you sense yourself.

No true Cypriot will agree to partition their homeland so this is a non-starter. A waste of time. What you support, what you stand for, is destruction of trust. Your every post is about that.

Arent we all allowed our opinions are they wrong becuase they do not conform to yours? 46 years of partition and failed plans proves me right, what proof have you got?

Put your knife away, VP, this thread is about building trust.

Only after taking it out of my back where you put it.

It's a chasm between the likes of you (see detailed description above) and those Cypriots who will never give up hope of a better future for their homeland and who reject the status quo. And my open mindset – which is typical of nothing but my own world view – is the opposite to your closed mindset.

Do you deny there is a chasm? our leaders support what I say and not you...the trust does not mean shoving yourdemands down our throats, you have tocome to terms with what Kifeas stated at the opening of this thread.

Now run along from this thread. It's about building trust and you're not capable.

Try me, say something to build trust and I will do the same in return, if you are capable.

I feel I have to remind you once more insults are the lowest form of intelligence, could you refrain from the insults and sarcasm..the forum doesnt need it.

[The Cypriot]

So go ahead and build trust, you are not doing a very good job and continue to contirbute to the negativity you sense yourself.

I sense it in particular with you and challenge it. My challenging negativity is not evidence of my negativity. This is the spurious argument which you always adopt. (Remember Jack Palance? "See he had a gun?")

Arent we all allowed our opinions are they wrong becuase they do not conform to yours?

Actually, you should ask that question to the controlling regime you're living under to at this time... But aside from that, I'm making the point that this thread is meant to be constructive and you've been undermining it.

46 years of partition and failed plans proves me right, what proof have you got?

Let's look to the future not argue about the past. Let's not fall into your trap. Don't make me despise you so that you can say, "see he despises me"?

Only after taking it (the knife) out of my back where you put it.

Does 'you' refer to me as an individual? I've targetted and am trying to 'cut through' your negativity. Stop playing this game.

Do you deny there is a chasm?

Yes.

our leaders support what I say and not you...the trust does not mean shoving yourdemands down our throats, you have tocome to terms with what Kifeas stated at the opening of this thread.

All I've asked for – admittedly quite forcefully in an attempt to try and get through to you – is for you to be more constructive.

Try me, say something to build trust and I will do the same in return, if you are capable.

I can see where you've been coming from, and I understand the roll you've been trying to play. Let's move on now.

I feel I have to remind you once more insults are the lowest form of intelligence, could you refrain from the insults and sarcasm..the forum doesnt need it.

OK. You refrain from your annoying, divisive negativity and I promise to reciprocate with your request. I am not by nature an insulting or sarcastic individual. And I am interested in securing justice for all those who consider themselves Cypriots. Including you.