The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


The Hellenisation of Cyprus

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby The Cypriot » Sun May 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Oracle wrote:
CopperLine wrote: ..... For some reason Oracle and Paphitis completely ignore ...


.... Sorry to appear rude Copper, but you are a little too late and it has ALL been covered :D

You haven’t covered jackshit...

I overestimated your ability to comprehend such an essay when I told Paphitis that soon you’d logon, read the link and whack him on the head for making it public, but I was shocked that the entire paper just went over your head Oracle, although I can’t say the same for Paphitis! :lol:


Well, it wasn't a paper I would have picked, myself! But you must admit I defended it admirably for him 8)


You didn't have to do that for him. You could have told him what a poor excuse of a Hellene he was for choosing such a poor excuse of a paper to prove his worthiness.

Doesn't it ever worry you, Oracle mu, that those who are so keen to demonstrate their Hellenic credentials, in reality, fall so short of the mark?
User avatar
The Cypriot
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:27 pm

Postby Oracle » Sun May 03, 2009 8:21 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Oracle wrote:
CopperLine wrote: ..... For some reason Oracle and Paphitis completely ignore ...


.... Sorry to appear rude Copper, but you are a little too late and it has ALL been covered :D

You haven’t covered jackshit...

I overestimated your ability to comprehend such an essay when I told Paphitis that soon you’d logon, read the link and whack him on the head for making it public, but I was shocked that the entire paper just went over your head Oracle, although I can’t say the same for Paphitis! :lol:


Well, it wasn't a paper I would have picked, myself! But you must admit I defended it admirably for him 8)


You didn't have to do that for him. You could have told him what a poor excuse of a Hellene he was for choosing such a poor excuse of a paper to prove his worthiness.

Doesn't it ever worry you, Oracle mu, that those who are so keen to demonstrate their Hellenic credentials, in reality, fall so short of the mark?


The dear Cypriot ... the paper was a challenge, but only because too many people do not understand the scientific approach, which often is about reducing something to its lowest common denominator, deconstructing the argument and setting it up over its head ... then seeing if the original idea still stands.

As such this paper did set out to prove the opposite of what is a commonly held belief and I thought that was worthwhile.

But the fact it failed to destroy the myth/the narrative/the theory that Cyprus was not Hellenised ... is indisputable! Maybe that was the author's intent after all .... or maybe not. :?

But the facts still stand, dear Cypriot. There is overwhelming evidence, historical, cultural and dare I say it even genetic, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Cyprus is Hellenic ... if the Turks weren't here to skew the data, it would be perfectly Hellenic :wink: (tease).

But let's not rest on our laurels .....
User avatar
Oracle
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 23507
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:13 am
Location: Anywhere but...

Postby Lit » Sun May 03, 2009 8:33 pm

[snip for brevity]

barouti wrote:
1)The legend that Cyprus was settled by the Nostoi, return of various Greek heroes from Troy, who founded Teucer at Salamis and Agapenor at Paphos.

2) The Ionian Revolt is considered the main Greek uprising against the Persian yolk. The Greeks of Cyprus joined in this revolt. They also sent ships to assist in Alexander the Great’s siege of Tyre when his campaign was still considered a Greek crusade against the Persian Empire.

3) Cypriots were allowed to compete in the ancient Olympic Games. For those of you who aren’t that savvy with your history, only those considered as real Greeks were allowed to compete. The Ancient Greeks especially before the Hellenistic Age were notoriously prejudicial to non-Greeks. Athletes from "Hellenized" states would have not been considered Greek and thus would not have been allowed to compete. Even the ancient Macedonians had to prove their Greek lineage. But there is no record of such doubt being extended towards the Greeks of ancient Cyprus.

Also, re Greek art, it wasn’t always in the glorious style of Greek Adonis. These examples are not considered pre-Greek, just Greek. Our art did still have to evolve.

Image


So let's not get carried away here, guys. Let's not mitigate established facts with new theories that cannot even be corroborated by any primary source.


Great post.

Speaking of Salamis and Troy...here is a wonderful article from the Associated Press via USA Today:

Archaeologist links ancient palace with Ajax

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/20 ... htm?csp=34

ATHENS — Among the ruins of a 3,200-year-old palace near Athens, researchers are piecing together the story of legendary Greek warrior-king Ajax, hero of the Trojan War.

The central palace complex from a 3,200-year-old settlement on the island of Salamis, near Athens, Greece. Did Ajax rule here?
AP

Archaeologist Yiannis Lolos found remains of the palace while hiking on the island of Salamis in 1999, and has led excavations there for the past six years.

Now, he's confident he's found the site where Ajax ruled, which has also provided evidence to support a theory that residents of the Mycenean island kingdom fled to Cyprus after the king's death.

"This was Ajax' capital," excavation leader Lolos, professor of archaeology at Ioannina University, told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

"It was the seat of the maritime kingdom of Salamis — small compared to other Mycenaean kingdoms — that was involved in trade, warfare and piracy in the eastern Mediterranean."

Ajax was one of the top fighters in the legendary Greek army that besieged Troy to win back the abducted queen of Sparta, Helen. Described in Homer's Iliad as a towering hero protected by a huge shield, Ajax killed himself after a quarrel with other Greek leaders.

On a wooded hill overlooking the sea at Kanakia on Salamis' southwestern coast, Lolos' team has excavated a town surmounted by a fortified palace complex.

The site flourished in the 13th century B.C. — at the same time as the major centers of Mycenae and Pylos in southern Greece — and was abandoned during widespread unrest about 100 years later.

Scholars have long suspected a core of historical truth in the story of Troy, and archaeological evidence from the Kanakia dig appears to agree.

Lolos also believes that, faced by an external threat, part of Salamis' population left for Cyprus, founding a new town named after their homeland.

"There is no other explanation for the creation on Cyprus of a city named Salamis," he said. "We established that there was a population exodus from Salamis, which was completely abandoned shortly after 1200 B.C. ... They must first have gone to Enkomi on Cyprus, which was already an established center."

Salamis was founded around 1100 B.C., when Enkomi — some 4 kilometers (2.5 miles) away — was abandoned. "It was probably the refugees' children that moved there," Lolos said.

The emigration theory would explain why almost no high-value artifacts were found at the Greek site, which bore no signs of destruction or enemy occupation.

"The emigrants, who would have been the city's ruling class, took a lot with them, including nearly all the valuables," Lolos said.

The rest of the population moved to a new settlement further inland that offered better protection from seaborne raids.

Kanakia, was first inhabited around 3000 B.C. The Mycenaean settlement covers some 12.5 acres, and features houses, workshops and storage areas.

So far, archaeologists have uncovered 33 rooms in the 8,000-square-foot palace, including two central royal residences containing what appear to be two bench-like beds.

"This recalls a reference by Homer to the king of Pylos sleeping at the back of his house," Lolos said.

Finds include pottery, stone tools, a sealstone and copper implements.

Lolos is particularly pleased with a piece of a copper mail shirt stamped with the name of Pharaoh Ramses II, who ruled Egypt from 1279-1213 B.C.

"This is a unique find, which may have belonged to a Mycenaean mercenary soldier serving with the Egyptians," he said. "It could have been a souvenir, a mark of honor or even some kind of a medal."

Excavations will continue in September, while future targets include the settlement's cemetery, which Lolos has located nearby.

Situated just off the coast of Athens, Salamis is best known for the naval battle in 480 B.C., when the Athenians defeated an invading Persian fleet. The ancient playwright Euripides was born there, and a cave excavated by Lolos in 1997 has been identified as a hideout where the poet composed his work.
Lit
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:32 am
Location: Right behind ya

Postby michalis5354 » Sun May 03, 2009 9:15 pm

Cyprus gained independence around 669/663. Cemeteries of this period are chiefly rock-cut tombs. They have been found, among others, at Tamassos, Soloi, Patriki and Trachonas. The rock-cut 'Royal' tombs at Tamassos, built ca. 600 BC imitate wooden houses. The pillars show Phoenician influence. Some graves contain remains of horses and chariots.

The main deity on the Island was the Great Goddess, Phoenician Astarte, later known under the Greek name of Aphrodite, who was called 'the Cypriote' by Homer. Paphian inscriptions call her the Queen. Pictures of Aphrodite appear on coins of Salamis as well, demonstrating that her cult was of more than local importance. The king of Paphos was high Priest of Aphrodite as well. Other Gods venerated were the Phoenician Anat, Baal, Eshmun, Reshef, Mikal and Melkart and the Egyptian Hathor, Thoeris, Bes and Ptah, as attested by amulets. Animal sacrifices are attested by terracotta-votives. The Sanctuary of Ayia Irini contained over 2000 figurines.


Some information about Astarte the godess of the island that was later known as Aphrodite :


Astarte is also known as Astarat and Astoreth. She is an incarnation of Ishtar and Inanna. This Semitic Goddess was worshipped by the Syrians, Canaanites (today called Palestinians), Phoenicians, Egyptians and other Semitic Tribes. King Solomon built a Temple to Her as Astoreth, near Jerusalem.

Astarte was worshipped as many things, to the Egyptians, She was honored as a Goddess of War and tenacity, to the Semites, She was a Goddess of Love and Fertility. Among the Greeks She was transposed into the Goddess of Love Aphrodite. In the Bible, She is referred to as "the abomination". Considering Her widespread devotion in Biblical times, the attempts to discredit the Goddess are not surprising.


Image

http://www.spiralgoddess.com/Astarte.html



King Evelthon of Salamis (560 BC-525 BC), probably the first one to cast silver or bronze coins in Cyprus, shows a ram on the obverse and an "ankh" (Egyptian symbol of good luck) on the reverse.


An ankh look like this



Image

The ankh was the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that read "eternal life", a triliteral sign for the consonants ˁ-n-ḫ. Egyptian gods are often portrayed carrying it by its loop, or bearing one in each hand, arms crossed over their chest. It is also known as the key of life, the key of the Nile, or as crux ansata, Latin for "cross with a handle".
Last edited by michalis5354 on Sun May 03, 2009 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
michalis5354
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:48 am

Postby The Cypriot » Sun May 03, 2009 9:19 pm

Oracle wrote:But the facts still stand, dear Cypriot. There is overwhelming evidence, historical, cultural and dare I say it even genetic, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Cyprus is Hellenic ... if the Turks weren't here to skew the data, it would be perfectly Hellenic :wink: (tease).

But let's not rest on our laurels .....


Perhaps it's a combination of these underlying historical, cultural and, dare I say it, even genetic influences (which, if I'm honest – whether overwhelming or not – are of limited interest) that have elicited this perfectly proud and perfectly dignified Cypriot within me. Nothing less...
User avatar
The Cypriot
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:27 pm

Postby Oracle » Sun May 03, 2009 9:58 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
Oracle wrote:But the facts still stand, dear Cypriot. There is overwhelming evidence, historical, cultural and dare I say it even genetic, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Cyprus is Hellenic ... if the Turks weren't here to skew the data, it would be perfectly Hellenic :wink: (tease).

But let's not rest on our laurels .....


Perhaps it's a combination of these underlying historical, cultural and, dare I say it, even genetic influences (which, if I'm honest – whether overwhelming or not – are of limited interest) that have elicited this perfectly proud and perfectly dignified Cypriot within me. Nothing less...


I dare say .... :wink:

Now, may I unravel your vraga? 8)

(Just to see this perfectly dignified Cypriot of course ... for Scientific reasons! :D )
User avatar
Oracle
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 23507
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:13 am
Location: Anywhere but...

Postby Get Real! » Sun May 03, 2009 10:21 pm

polis wrote:You really have to understand GR's frustration. I mean in his genetic line, the first occurance of a written record were his own personal clumsy scribblings when he was discovered by civilisation, dragged out of his cave and forced to attend school.

Now you really got me Politsa... :roll:
User avatar
Get Real!
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 48333
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: Nicosia

Postby Get Real! » Sun May 03, 2009 10:31 pm

Oracle wrote:They probably wouldn't get funding to do this (at present) since they would have to justify the expenditure by demonstrating there was a massive migration from Sicily to Greece ... which they state at the outset there wasn't. The bulk of the migration was Greece to Sicily, which is why they looked at the gene flow in that direction.

No worries... they should dump a couple of dozen Sicilian pots in Greece and bingo! You’ve got a HUGE Sicilian migration that colonized Greece!

Isn’t that how it worked in the “learned” archeological world right up to the 80s even? 8)

So far, the genetic data seems to back up the historically accepted "narratives" :wink: ... but everything has to be weighed up with as many sources as possible.

So what exactly is the genetic composition of the average modern Greek if not Slavic demi-God? :?
User avatar
Get Real!
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 48333
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: Nicosia

Postby The Cypriot » Sun May 03, 2009 10:40 pm

Oracle wrote:I dare say .... :wink:

Now, may I unravel your vraga? 8)

(Just to see this perfectly dignified Cypriot of course ... for Scientific reasons! :D )


I think you may need to read some light poetry to calm you down and help with your research. Try some Dimitris Lipertis which I've posted in the general section.
User avatar
The Cypriot
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:27 pm

Postby polis » Sun May 03, 2009 10:43 pm

Get Real! wrote:
polis wrote:You really have to understand GR's frustration. I mean in his genetic line, the first occurance of a written record were his own personal clumsy scribblings when he was discovered by civilisation, dragged out of his cave and forced to attend school.

Now you really got me Politsa... :roll:


Ever heard of a written historical record, GR, or are you so excited to trace your ancestry back to the Neanderthal you forgot that humans actually learned how to write?
polis
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Cyprus

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests