Cyprus-Forum.com

[Hatter]

Surely as matters unfold, you must be realising that you have never called the shots, let alone now!

We are going for nothing less than full re-unification of our Island under Democratic one-man-one vote ethics ... and we could not care less if there was only ONE TC left by then!

"U" better prepare urself for a bitter partition. First, u need to go for a check-up bcz it might cause u a heart attack.

Partition ain't gona happen, Insan. You had better wake up and smell the coffee.

Partition is what will happen. Everything indicates we r going through a partition and it will be clearer in few months time, even the lamers will realize. Partition will happen not bcz I and "they" wish so but bcz of "they" couldn't manage to reconcile Hellenes and Turks; besides the incapability of Hellenes and Turks to reconcile. "They" always chose the feasible and most pragmatic ways, so do I.

It ain't gonna happen, Insan, because it would be against the long term interests of Britain and against the long term interests of Turkey. Probably heartbreaking for you and the other neo-partitionists, but that is the reality of the situation.

Let's see... Next 10 years of the world is being planned by some behind closed doors. It is clear that neither solution thesis r acceptable for 2 communities and enforcing either thesis on any side don't help. In such a case they won't wait even just 1 more year for impossible. So, logically speaking; if the solution thesis we have already had and negoitiated for 50 years couldn't be accepted by either side, what has remained to talk abt? Partition... One way or another Cyprus problem should have been solved at max mid 2010.

Yes, Insan, do let's see: In the absence of any progress in the "talks", the powers that be will oblige you and your neo-partitionist friends, by going against their own interests? And this, to you, is pragmatism? Who sold you this one, Insan?

Anglo-Americans "sold" me this in 1965.

They sold you the idea that they will go against their own interests just to keep you and your partitionist friends happy, and you bought it?

"They" don't do the the things that r against "their" interests. "They" have a very genius brain force. Their priority is their own interests and secondarily the interests of their best allies.

You are contradicting yourself, Insan. "priority is their own interests" but they will go against their own interests to keep you and your partitionist friends happy. You will be buying stolen property in the north next, Insan!

Excuse me?

That last bit was a reference to your apparent gullibility and naivety.

[Hatter]

Now that your inconsistency and self-contradiction is made clear, there is not much point in continuing this discussion, Insan. Good night.

[insan]

Now that your inconsistency and self-contradiction is made clear, there is not much point in continuing this discussion, Insan. Good night.

Good night.

[Nikitas]

What happens next?

The TCs have to digest the unpleasant (for them) fact that the property issued CANNOT be solved by political means alone. Individual rights cannot be extinguished by any unilateral use of force between nations that are members of the Council of Europe.

And then they can get it in their chauvinistic heads that having a TC administered federal state in the north CANNOT deprive GC individual ownners of their rights. The desire for an exclusively TC inhabited and owned north of Cyprus is a pipe dream. In a free and democratic country people can own land and reside anywhere they like within that country. That is how ALL federations function. What Talat and Co want for Cyprus is officialised apartheid and it is NOT going to happen.

That is what comes next. Simple stuff.

As for the next round in British courts, there is nothing left to decide, they apply the judgement of the Cyprus court. And lowlifes who knowngly and fradulently deal in stolen land will lose money. They knew the score when they got into this crooked business. They were told as much by their own government. So f**ck them.

[elko]

An excellent article. If I may add, Orams have also applied to European Court of Human Rights and are complaining that they were not given a proper chance to defend themselves. They were served papers in Greek and had 10 days to put in a "Memorandum of Appearence" i.e. notify the court that they are going to defend the case. In fact David Orams was not served at all. In a serious matter like this only a kangaroo court can give judgement to the plaintiff in the absence of appearence. The normal course is to postpone the case and serve the "default" notice on the defendants. This was not done, it was a rushed judgement, a very poor showing. It is going to backfire, write my word.

In case anybody is confused about the roles of ECJ and ECHR, let me say this. ECJ is the highest court to decide on the meaning of EU law but has no powers to interfere with the rulings of individual courts i.e. it is not a court of appeal. The ECHR can interfere with the rulings of individual courtsand thus as far as human rights are concerned it act like a court of appeal.
ismet

[Hermes]

As a non-lawyer, two things strike me about this verdict. Firstly, it validates the pre-1974 property arrangements and repudiates any ownership claims to that property as a result of the Turkish invasion. This means that the "facts on the ground" which the Turks are so keen to stress are rendered irrelevant. Whoever currently resides in Greek-Cypriot owned property in the north, be it Turkish Cypriot, Turkish settler or foreigner, the legal owner is the original owner and this ECJ decision validates his or her claim to that property.

Secondly, this has profound implications for the current talks. Since the majority of land in the occupied areas was/is owned by Greek Cypriots (around 80-85 per cent) then the proposed Turkish Cypriot federal zone will be largely situated in land legally owned by Greek Cypriots. One can understand why the T/C authorities are rattled at this prospect. After all, their preferred solution is based on forcing the Greek Cypriots to abandon their property in the north in order to achieve a non-Greek federal zone. Moreover, to prevent G/Cs having any right to settle or purchase property in the north at all.

It will be impossible for Christofias to accede to Turkish demands which contradict the ECJ ruling. Any agreement will have to take into consideration the rights of the original owners as these cannot be negotiated away. Any bizonal arrangement will have to take this ruling into account. The implication is stunning. The Orams have inadvertently undermined the Turkish case for a separitist quasi-confederal solution. It opens the way to a vision of Cyprus more in line with European values and G/C expectations and blows to pieces the possibility of long-term "derogations".

The shock in the north is palpable. The reaction not surprising. But the implications cannot be denied. The game is well and truly up.

[boomerang]

As a non-lawyer, two things strike me about this verdict. Firstly, it validates the pre-1974 property arrangements and repudiates any ownership claims to that property as a result of the Turkish invasion. This means that the "facts on the ground" which the Turks are so keen to stress are rendered irrelevant. Whoever currently resides in Greek-Cypriot owned property in the north, be it Turkish Cypriot, Turkish settler or foreigner, the legal owner is the original owner and this ECJ decision validates his or her claim to that property.

Secondly, this has profound implications for the current talks. Since the majority of land in the occupied areas was/is owned by Greek Cypriots (around 80-85 per cent) then the proposed Turkish Cypriot federal zone will be largely situated in land legally owned by Greek Cypriots. One can understand why the T/C authorities are rattled at this prospect. After all, their preferred solution is based on forcing the Greek Cypriots to abandon their property in the north in order to achieve a non-Greek federal zone. Moreover, to prevent G/Cs having any right to settle or purchase property in the north at all.

It will be impossible for Christofias to accede to Turkish demands which contradict the ECJ ruling. Any agreement will have to take into consideration the rights of the original owners as these cannot be negotiated away. Any bizonal arrangement will have to take this ruling into account. The implication is stunning. The Orams have inadvertently undermined the Turkish case for a separitist quasi-confederal solution. It opens the way to a vision of Cyprus more in line with European values and G/C expectations and blows to pieces the possibility of long-term "derogations".

The shock in the north is palpable. The reaction not surprising. But the implications cannot be denied. The game is well and truly up.

your assessment is quite correct...turkey should have buried this case a long time ago rather than trying to exercise bravado with sophistries...

i wonder if this is what ergogan meant when he said one step ahead of the gc...

[Oracle]

As a non-lawyer, two things strike me about this verdict. Firstly, it validates the pre-1974 property arrangements and repudiates any ownership claims to that property as a result of the Turkish invasion. This means that the "facts on the ground" which the Turks are so keen to stress are rendered irrelevant. Whoever currently resides in Greek-Cypriot owned property in the north, be it Turkish Cypriot, Turkish settler or foreigner, the legal owner is the original owner and this ECJ decision validates his or her claim to that property.

Secondly, this has profound implications for the current talks. Since the majority of land in the occupied areas was/is owned by Greek Cypriots (around 80-85 per cent) then the proposed Turkish Cypriot federal zone will be largely situated in land legally owned by Greek Cypriots. One can understand why the T/C authorities are rattled at this prospect. After all, their preferred solution is based on forcing the Greek Cypriots to abandon their property in the north in order to achieve a non-Greek federal zone. Moreover, to prevent G/Cs having any right to settle or purchase property in the north at all.

It will be impossible for Christofias to accede to Turkish demands which contradict the ECJ ruling. Any agreement will have to take into consideration the rights of the original owners as these cannot be negotiated away. Any bizonal arrangement will have to take this ruling into account. The implication is stunning. The Orams have inadvertently undermined the Turkish case for a separitist quasi-confederal solution. It opens the way to a vision of Cyprus more in line with European values and G/C expectations and blows to pieces the possibility of long-term "derogations".

The shock in the north is palpable. The reaction not surprising. But the implications cannot be denied. The game is well and truly up.

Welcome Hermes

Brilliant! A seminal post.

[boulio]

The Orams have inadvertently undermined the Turkish case for a separitist quasi-confederal solution

This point is what most people seem to overlook,even in a bbf there will be a subsatntial amount of g/c living in the northern state.Now its in the t/c hands to see how many,at current "state" lines you will have 200,000++ g/c in the north,at annan plan state lines about 100,000+++

at 20% future northern state maybe 60,000+++

the more land you give back the less g/c in the north,kikapu plan at its best

[Oracle]

Forget it boulio ... Cyprus doesn't have to give anything away.

Cyprus did nothing wrong. It owes nothing to Turk-TCs. Whilst at peace, it was attacked by coupists then invaded by Turks.

Why should that lead to its permanent demise? It's not justified!