Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz3]

Just in case you missed it Erolz and wanted to get the book, you'll find Inonu's letter and Kutchuk's response in this book.

I did not miss it and thanks. However to be honest traking down the book and then finding someon to translate it for me, all to check if Kutchuk said 'I would rather return to Turkey than to the RoC government' or not according to the letters it publishes is not something I am about to rush and do in the next few hours.

[DT.]

Just in case you missed it Erolz and wanted to get the book, you'll find Inonu's letter and Kutchuk's response in this book.

I did not miss it and thanks. However to be honest traking down the book and then finding someon to translate it for me, all to check if Kutchuk said 'I would rather return to Turkey than to the RoC government' or not according to the letters it publishes is not something I am about to rush and do in the next few hours.

don't worry about it mate...I'll get it done for you.

[Piratis]

Cyprus accepted the jurisdiction of ICJ as compulsory in the same way that the other countries did. It didn't choose anything less than that, as you imply.

From 1960- 2002 Cyprus chose to accept ICJ jusrisdiction on a case base case basis. From 2002 it changed that to an any case basis with parties that do likewise, as an EU entry requirment I believe. It could also choose to do it on an any case basis regardless of the status of the other states.

Some states choose option 1 , some choose option 2 and some choose option 3.

It only sounds reasonable for a country to be open for suits only from other countries which are also open for suits.

Can you tell me which are the countries that choose Option 3? I really want to see how many and who they are exactly.

If you think that your rights were taken illegally away in 1965 then why don't you sue RoC now? Until 2002 maybe you had the excuse, but why didn't you sue after that?

I do not think the TC communities rights were illegal removed from them by the GC community, I know it to be a fact. Even after 2002 I have no ability to bring a case against the RoC. Turkey could, if it were to change its decision in what way it deals with ICJ jusrisdiction, in theory bring a case over 40 years after the fact, but it knows it is too late for that.

None of which changes the reality of the illegal theft of the TC communities rights under the 60s agreements and RoC consitution by GC leadership.

And I know for a fact that no such thing happened. So it is my word against yours. So why don't you bring the case to the ICJ to see who is right? What are you afraid of? That one more lie of yours will be eliminated?

You just accuse RoC of illegalites, but the fact is that the illegalities are proven to be from your side. You don't even dare to sue RoC.

I have never denied illegalites comitted by Turkey and TC leaderships. You are the one that wishes to promote the absurd 7 year old argument that 'we are totaly innocent and ahve done nothing wrong or illegal and you are totaly guilty and the only ones to have behaved illegaly.

If we have done something wrong, then we are open to the ECHR, ECJ and ICJ to judge the cases and if they find us guilty of something we would be more than glad to do what they request to rectify. Are you willing to do the same? Or you will continue hiding behind the tanks of Turkey, ignoring court rulings and UN resolutions, trying to protect criminals, and trying to find all ways possible to continue with yet more illegalities?

On the other hand, Cyprus who is acting legally and has nothing to fear, accepted the jurisdiction of the court as compulsory.

Yes 37 years after it comitted its illegalites and got away with them for that period and because doing so was a requirment of EU accession.

Again, you continue to accuse Cyprus but you don't dare to take RoC to the court to prove your accusations.

And can you show me where it is said that this is a requirement for EU accession? In that list I see many EU countries missing, including countries that joined EU recently like Romania.

RoC never removed any of your rights. You keep repeating lies, but you are afraid to put your lies to the test of a court because you always lose in such cases.

Yes it did. From 64 to 74 the TC community was denied its legal rights under the consitution and the 60's agreements by the GC leadership. We had a right to return to government in 65, this was denied to us by the GC leadership. We had a right to vice presidential veto, this was denied to us by GC leadership. We had a right to ratify or not annual budgets, this was denied to us by GC leadership. We had a right to notification and veto on foriegn policy and foriegn relations, this was denied to us by a GC leadership. We had a right to seperate municplaities, this was denied to us by a GC leadership. The only court at this time that we could bring such issue to, the RoC consitutional court, we did bring issues to and when it found in our favour the GC leadership declared they would ignore its rulings, which they did, leading to its colapse as the only court at that time able to decide such matters.

I tell no lies. We took issues to court at the time. A legal court with jurisdiction. It found in our favour. The GC leadership ignored its rulings.

I realise these facts are upsetting to you and your need to maintain your 7 year old perspective that your side are and have always been total innocents only ever behaving in legal ways and thus it is easier for you to ignore them and call them lies but they remain true none the less.

You were denied nothing, as you are denied nothing today. Then, just like now, you wanted partition and you choose conflict instead of peace and democracy. Stop being greedy, stop the crimes and illegalities, give to us all of our rights and all of our land, and then you can take all of yours. Committing crimes and illegalities and trying to destroy RoC have consequences. I would hoped you have learned this by now.

Everything RoC did was 100% legal.

Yeah right because ignoring RoC consitutional court rulings is totaly legal, provided you are Greek and the ruling is against you, for it is your island and you can do as you please.

As is allowing your interior minister to set up and arm and run ethnic based para military squads to intimidate and kill TC 100% legal, if your are Greek that is for Cyprus is your island and you can do as you like.

The Turkish army killed 10s of thousands of secessionist Kurds. You attacked us and you wanted to annihilate us from half of our island in order to create some Turkish State on land stolen from us. Of course we fought back. Nothing illegal about a state protecting its sovereignty from secessionist terrorists.

If you disagree then sue RoC.

We DID sue in the RoC consitutional court. It found in our favour. The GC leadership ignored the ruling. The court collapsed in the face of this. All 100% legal on the part of the GC leaderhip no doubt in the cloud cuckooo land you appear to live in.

No court ever convicted RoC of any illegalities. The court is functioning perfectly until today, and Cyprus is ruled democratically by its own people. So talk about Cyprus leadership, not "GC leadership".

You can do it now very easily,

Yes very easily, if I happened to be the supreme ruler of Turkey that is and was stupid enough to think that I could bring a case so far after the fact and after so many changes in the situation since then. Very easy indeed.

Obviously the ones that rule Turkey have more knowledge than you do and know they would lose this case just like every other.

ans your excuses of why you didn't do it before are not valid anymore.

We DID DO IT BEFORE, on the issue of seperate municipalties in the consitutional court of the republic of cyprus. We went to court and so did you. We argued our case, that such municplaites were defined in the 60's agreements and you argued yours that they were not practical to set up and the court found in our favour. Makrios then , presumably 100%legaly simply announced that he would not abide by this court ruling.

Makarios was ahead of its time. Such segregation laws and other racist discrimination (that were forced on the Cypriot people by the British) could not be accepted today. So as I said to you, bring RoC to the courts and accuse it that it denied segregation and racist discrimination and lets see if you can win such case today.

What you fear is that this ruling will change the "balance" in the negotiations.

Correct. So much so that I fear GC may loose any real desire to negotiate at all. I hope I am wrong about this but I fear it still.

Why would we loose desire to negotiate. Maybe you wanted to say "loose desire to capitulate"?

Until yesterday you were with the impression that you had us in the corner and that either we would capitulate to you soon and accept a loose Confederation (some on your side even put a deadline by the the end of the year) or else you would soon become a "Kosovo", a "Taiwan" or even officially recognized.

Until yesterday I recongised that ever since you managed to steal our communal rights in the 60's AND be rewarded for this by the international community with recognition as the sole legitimate government in Cyprus, we have been in the weaker position and this was only balanced by your over confidence in the strength of your position finally leading to Turkey using force despite legality on our behalf. Despite this I had hopes that we could still yet reach a settlement that both parties could accept. That hope is severly diminished now.

Why is damaged? Because you realized that it is not you who decides what is legal and what is not, but international courts?

As far as your "communal rights" go, they were unfair privileges granted to you on our expense by the foreign Imperialists, given to you as a reward for helping them to oppress the Cypriot revolution.

If the international community accepted such thing, then why not also accept reforms made democratically by the Cypriot people, that would restore to some degree the democracy and the human rights in Cyprus?

Since yesterday you woke up to the fact that not only things will not become better for you, but they could become much worst. 1/3rd of our island might be hostage to you, but in many ways you are our hostages as well. Therefore you need an agreed solution as much as we do. So it is time for you to drop the "we are the winners of the war" mentality and negotiate a solution that will be acceptable to most Cypriots.

If you are right that this decision leads to a balance of power between the various parties that allows to reach a fair settlement that both communites can and do accept then no one will be happier than me. Howerver my fear is that it will not lead to this but actualy a worsening of relations between the communites that makes reaching an agreement harder not easier. I hope my fears are unfounded. Time will, as ever tell. The fear that this decision may worseing things re a settlement and not improve them is shared by others than me, the EU comission included, which is why they made the submissions they did to the ECJ. I hope we are all wrong and you are right but I fear otherwise.

From what I know you rejected the Annan plan because you wanted something even better for your side. So I am sorry, but I do not believe you when you say that you wouldn't mind more balance in the negotiations.

What you were hopping for is that everybody would put pressure on us instead of you, that we would become desperate and accept whatever "solution" you wanted to force on us.

I am sure your dream was blackmailing Christofias to accept something like Annan plan or even worst, and then place it on referendum to the Cypriot people as the "last chance" for a "solution", and if we dared to reject your Loose Confederation, then you would move on to become a "Kosovo", "Taiwan" or even officially recognized.

[Byron]

For everyone’s reference…

How the (ICJ) International Court of Justice works…
http://www.icj-cij.org/court/index.php?p1=1&p2=6

How the (ECJ) Court of Justice of the European Communities works…
http://curia.europa.eu/en/instit/presen ... ex_cje.htm

How the (ICC) International Criminal Court works…
http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Situations+and+Cases/

How the (ECHR) European Court of Human Rights works…
http://www.echr.coe.int/ECHR/EN/Header/ ... questions/

Now, when everyone has read that come back and argue!

Cutting and pasting links. My that's quite a skill you have Get Real ! Now you've got the hang of that, concentrate on making links to other FAQ pages - perhaps ECHR or ECJ - and then Piratis will employ your services as an experienced lawyer soon after.

An important judgement has been won but the key to the judgement is the enforcement. Let's see how that will conclude.

[miltiades]

DT I asked where the Turkish Cypriots were suppose to go, presumably their " piece of scrubland" in the south is occupied by Greek Cypriots .

Are you trying to tell us that you give a shit about the T/Cs.
Let me tell you and the likes of you ignoramus two bit "investors" who never gave a toss on whose land your villas were built , could not care less as long as you could sunbathe get pissed on cheap booze and play the international " jet setter ", all is now lost the cows are coming home
the game is over mate !
Champagne anyone ?

[RichardB]

DT I asked where the Turkish Cypriots were suppose to go, presumably their " piece of scrubland" in the south is occupied by Greek Cypriots .

Are you trying to tell us that you give a shit about the T/Cs.
Let me tell you and the likes of you ignoramus two bit "investors" who never gave a toss on whose land your villas were built , could not care less as long as you could sunbathe get pissed on cheap booze and play the international " jet setter ", all is now lost the cows are coming home
the game is over mate !
Champagne anyone ?

Jolly good post young man

Tesco 2004 for me with a Boddingtons chaser

[miltiades]

TCs, Turks, Ex pats don't have to go anywhere. The GCs chose to leave North Cyrpus, they were not made to leave-they could have stayed if they chose to. What they left behind had been stolen by them anyway-they stole land from the TCs (who were mainly farmers thus owned much more land than the GCs) and now the GCs think they can have that land back NO CHANCE. Besides you GCs should be thankful that Turkey let you stay in South cyprus, what Turkey should have done was chuck the lot of you OUT forever back to your darling motherland Greece, then you would have achieved your ENOSIS. LOL.

Hey stupid , I told you before that you are a settler and a bloody foreigner. Did those owners of Cypriot land that you say , had any legal deeds either under British rule or after independence.
Grow up you fool .

[polis]

In 1965 the TC leadership request via UN to return to its rightful positions in government. They were told by Clerides that they could do so only if they accepted the unilateral removal of aspects of their communal consitutional rights.

Can you substantiate this claim?

Well the last time I tried to do this I was banned from the forum because the place where I had upload the text of the relevant UN document was on a website I am not allowed to mention.

So this time I have taken the trouble to upload it to a different site.

Let me say that this is the text of a UN document but I did not get this from a primary source. I believe it to be a true and genuine copy of the text of this UN document. As far as my previous research goes this document was not at that time available through the UN own online document library (many older UN docs are like this though they are adding them over time) and thus obtaing the orginal document directly from a UN source has not been something I have been able to do. However as I say it does come from a source I personal trust and I have no reason to doubt its accuracy.

Anyway you can read it here

http://www.visionmatters.co.uk/cyprus/undoc.txt

They did not request to return to rightfull positions at government. They wanted to have their cake and eat it, continue their armed revolt against the state, which constituted high treason, a capital offence at the time, and at the same time participate in parliamentary meetings at whim in order to exercise their power of veto and prevent the state from functioning, the very state they were refusing to recognise.

That's what you get from learning your history from propaganda sites, and Turkish propaganda sites no less. There was never any proposal on the side of the Turks to lay down their arms give up their enclaves and separate administration and return to the situation as it stood before the December '63 events.

Unless you can find some serious commentator supporting your argument let's leave it at that.

[TCTRNC]

LOL. Look, your dummy's on the floor. Pick it up, put it in your mouth and leave it there. You'll need it for when you realise that all you GCs are going to get back from North Cyrpus is skuda.

TCs, Turks, Ex pats don't have to go anywhere. The GCs chose to leave North Cyrpus, they were not made to leave-they could have stayed if they chose to. What they left behind had been stolen by them anyway-they stole land from the TCs (who were mainly farmers thus owned much more land than the GCs) and now the GCs think they can have that land back NO CHANCE. Besides you GCs should be thankful that Turkey let you stay in South cyprus, what Turkey should have done was chuck the lot of you OUT forever back to your darling motherland Greece, then you would have achieved your ENOSIS. LOL.

Hey stupid , I told you before that you are a settler and a bloody foreigner. Did those owners of Cypriot land that you say , had any legal deeds either under British rule or after independence.
Grow up you fool .

[DT.]

LOL. Look, your dummy's on the floor. Pick it up, put it in your mouth and leave it there. You'll need it for when you realise that all you GCs are going to get back from North Cyrpus is skuda.

TCs, Turks, Ex pats don't have to go anywhere. The GCs chose to leave North Cyrpus, they were not made to leave-they could have stayed if they chose to. What they left behind had been stolen by them anyway-they stole land from the TCs (who were mainly farmers thus owned much more land than the GCs) and now the GCs think they can have that land back NO CHANCE. Besides you GCs should be thankful that Turkey let you stay in South cyprus, what Turkey should have done was chuck the lot of you OUT forever back to your darling motherland Greece, then you would have achieved your ENOSIS. LOL.

Hey stupid , I told you before that you are a settler and a bloody foreigner. Did those owners of Cypriot land that you say , had any legal deeds either under British rule or after independence.
Grow up you fool .

what the hell are we gonna do with your skoda?