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British Couple Must Demolish Cyprus Home, EU Top Court Says

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby erolz3 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:34 am

Kifeas wrote: They knew or should have known that they were trespassing and illegally investing in GC properties for which their owners did not give their consent, and they should have avoided doing this.


You may believe that what TC should have done post 74 is squeeze into a tiny proprtion of the area in the North, making no use of the vast amounts of land under its control but owned by GC pre 74, but such an expectation is in my opinion simply unrealistic. In reality this is not even what the RoC did with the areas under it's control, even though the vast majority of land under their control was not TC owned pre 74 they still used and use areas that were TC pre 74. If the TRNC had not used or allowed any use of the area under its control post 74 but owned by GC pre 74 it simply would not exist today.

I do not think the burden of a property solutiuon in Cyprus should be borne by just those that lost access and control of property in 74 and nor do I think it should be borne disproportionatley by one community either.

I would look favourably on any solution that took the above premise of a settlement as its starting point. I do not think the above is the 'starting point' for the GC sides current position on a property settlement.
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Postby erolz3 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:40 am

DT. wrote: In all honesty Erolz I promise I will not argue against the merits of what I see as a concession. I am just interested to know what you thought was a concession as a TC.


I am pushed for time right now, I am actually visting some friends in the South (hope there are no writs waiting for me at the crossing ;) )

DT to evaluate if the Annan Plan respresented concessions for TC one has to decide against what. That could be

vs their optimal solution

vs what they had according to the original 1960 agreements

vs what they have today in the current staus quo.

If you look at the Annan Plan and measure it and if it represents any concession by TC at all vs any or all of the above and still can not find anything in there that could be considered a concession then when I have time I will point out some examples myself.

however you are an intelligent guy and I am sure if you think about it and consider it properly, especially from a TC perspective, you will be more than able to find the concessions yourself without my help.
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Postby DT. » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:40 am

erolz3 wrote:
Kifeas wrote: They knew or should have known that they were trespassing and illegally investing in GC properties for which their owners did not give their consent, and they should have avoided doing this.


You may believe that what TC should have done post 74 is squeeze into a tiny proprtion of the area in the North, making no use of the vast amounts of land under its control but owned by GC pre 74, but such an expectation is in my opinion simply unrealistic. In reality this is not even what the RoC did with the areas under it's control, even though the vast majority of land under their control was not TC owned pre 74 they still used and use areas that were TC pre 74. If the TRNC had not used or allowed any use of the area under its control post 74 but owned by GC pre 74 it simply would not exist today.

I do not think the burden of a property solutiuon in Cyprus should be borne by just those that lost access and control of property in 74 and nor do I think it should be borne disproportionatley by one community either.

I would look favourably on any solution that took the above premise of a settlement as its starting point. I do not think the above is the 'starting point' for the GC sides current position on a property settlement.


Erolz...using the land as a community for its needs is different from selling to the highest international bidder.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:47 am

Erolz, if TCs made concessions even compared to the 1960 agreements, then why not agree to return to those agreements, which according to your theory should be better for TCs?

The fact is that TCs only gave back part of what they illegally took 1974. They made no concession from what their rights according to the 1960 agreements are. Compared to the 1960 agreements they got more land, more power, and more separation, and got less of nothing.

Partition (Taksim) was created in the 50s as means to counter Enosis. Today enosis is totally out of the question. You won that. Then after 1974 we were again blackmailed and agreed for even more concessions, so TCs can administer a part of Cyprus in a Federation. You can win this as well, in a solution of the form I described in my previous post. You would have made no concessions, and you would be the winners. We would lose to a degree, but not too much to be resentful, and Turkey would gain nothing. You would be the only winners. You would be administering a proportional to your population part of Cyprus, have a lot of internal autonomy within that part, have a proportional participation in the central Cyprus government and in EU, and enjoy all the benefits of being equal EU citizens. That would be the absolute victory for you.

But instead of looking at the glass 4/5ths full, you are looking at it as 1/5th empty, and you insist on maximalist demands so you can gain for yourselves and for Turkey everything you ever dreamed about. By doing so, you make any "solution" totally unacceptable to us. In fact the "solutions" that you want are even worst than the status quo for most of us.

Turkey is trying to keep you from waking up by keep promising to you that you can have your cake and eat it too. Many TCs were made to believe that after the Annan plan everything would be great for them, and that either we would accept the Confederation they demanded or else they would soon become "Taiwan", "Kosovo", or even officially recognized. I hope you will soon understand that this is not an option, and logically asses your real options in which case you will drop your demands to something that is acceptable to us and this way achieve a solution in which you would actually be the big winners.

But if you instead continue the war and the blackmail hoping to force us to total capitulation then you should take it for granted that we will fight back with all means that we have.
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Postby Oracle » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:00 am

erolz3 wrote: .... However my problem is NOT that I do not have these rights, my problem is that I do not have these rights at the same time that I am deemed to have liabilites of EU law for my actions in the North of Cyprus. And for this I blame the EU, for it is the EU that first says EU law is suspended where I live and then says but EU law can still be used to prosecute me for actions where I live.


This is not a double standard but how all nationals are treated. Entitlement to benefits and protection is restricted to members including seeking justice for them even if the crimes are conducted by outsiders.

It is fair that the EU should protect its citizens, first and foremost, since they pay into the organisation. If any EU citizens are compromised by the actions of non-EU residents (who rightfully have no claim to benefits), the EU Laws should still be able to charge non-EU citizens with these infringements upon its citizens ... although it may not be able to recover losses other than by any ownership of assets within the EU.

What I would like to know though, is how much INTERPOL can be used for seizing wrong-doers outside the EU ....
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Postby Piratis » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:07 am

The difference it would make is that instead of being hugely dependent on Turkey for our day to day survival we would be totaly and absolutely dependent on them. The difference it would make would be to cement partition of Cyprus for the foreseeable future. As a de facto part of a recognised state where less than 1% of that state is disputed we could survive.


From our point of view there is no difference between you being "hugely dependent on Turkey" and "absolutely dependent on Turkey". When it comes to the solution of the Cyprus Problem and how you negotiate Turkey already has the full control. If they will also tell you what color underwear you should wear that is only something that can affect you, not us. As far as we are concerned the how you label the occupied part of Cyprus is of no importance.

Actually, Turkey created the "trnc" in order to give the impression that the Cyprus Problem is not a problem between Cyprus and Turkey, but a problem between two communities. If they declare north Cyprus as a Turkish district then they would be shooting themselves on the foot, and make it much easier for us to show that the Cyprus Problem is one of invasion and occupation of one country by another. Turkey is not stupid to do such thing.

What I predict will happen is some moves (words and promises mostly) from Turkey and possibly the UK, to counter the negative psychological consequences that this ruling had among TCs, and give them hope again that they can indeed have their cake and eat it too, and in this way ensure that their divide and rule will continue unobstructed.
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Postby RAFAELLA » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:27 am

Mr Apostolides at Euronews - Video

Justice - Cyprus property ruling EU-wide
http://www.euronews.net/2009/04/28/cypr ... g-eu-wide/
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Postby Raymanoff » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:43 am

SEATERRA still advertise on a major Russian Radio Channel ECHO OF MOSCOW.

I'll try to translate "Seaterra, the leader in development sector in north cyprus gives you a special one time opportunity to invest in a Mediterranean paradise. Our complex is already operational etc blah blah (describes property features etc). Lately the property market in North Cyprus is booming giving your investment a safe heaven.
Seaterra have been awarded with major real estate awards such as blah blah blah... (never heard of)
Call our representative now etc...

What a bunch of crap.
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Postby DT. » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:51 am

Raymanoff wrote:SEATERRA still advertise on a major Russian Radio Channel ECHO OF MOSCOW.

I'll try to translate "Seaterra, the leader in development sector in north cyprus gives you a special one time opportunity to invest in a Mediterranean paradise. Our complex is already operational etc blah blah (describes property features etc). Lately the property market in North Cyprus is booming giving your investment a safe heaven.
Seaterra have been awarded with major real estate awards such as blah blah blah... (never heard of)
Call our representative now etc...

What a bunch of crap.


can you get the number?
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Postby Raymanoff » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:53 am

Do you speak Russian? Its a Moscow number, they got offices there i guess...
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