Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

Are you referring to within the Annan Plan? If so the idea that the Annan Plan involved no concessions on the part of TC side is one that whilst may be conforting to you is not a reflection of any reality.

erolz could you le tme know what these concessions were?

[Kifeas]

Hi to all those that know me

Not sure if I will be allowed to continue to post on this 'bastion of free speech' or not but 'ill give it a go.

First off congratulations to Mr. Apostolides on this legal victory in the ECJ.

What I would like to comment on is how this decision by the ECJ is going to impact the ongoing negotiations re a comprehensive settlement.

I realise that some of you hope and believe that it will help such a process, strengthening the hand of the GC negotiators and forcing greater compromise from TC and Turkey. I am afraid that I do not share such an optimistic view.

I think it is inevitable that this ruling will encourage the GC negotiators to seek greater and greater concessions from the TC side and encourage them to pursue a strategy of little to no compromise and delay whilst they seek to increase external pressure through subsequent cases like the Orams. Whilst such an approach has a chance of leading to 'capitulation' by the TC negotiators, I think that chance is tiny in reality and even if it did result in such I think all we will end up with is an agreement that the TC people will simply be unwilling to endorse. In short I think as far as negotiations for a comprehensive settlement go this ruling has now put us right back to the worst days of post 74 in this regard. This is a worry to me as someone who wants us to achieve a settlement.

I really am concerned at what the ultimate consequences of this judgment are going to be. I think the ramifications of it are massive and go way beyond just the property issue. I hope I am wrong but I fear it may lead us into a level of distrust and non physical conflict between the two communities the likes of which we have not seen for decades. It seems to me that we will over time see ever increasing attempts to use RoC court rulings to 'attack' those in the North, be they Cypriot or non Cypriot and not just individuals but also businesses and corporate entities. We will I fear see cases brought in the RoC against say banks operating in the North 'illegally for example, seeking to get judgments in RoC courts that can then be enforced against these TRNC banks assets in the EU. That is just one example but as far as I understand this ruling I can envisage countless others. Lets face it the RoC considers pretty much everything and anything that goes on in the North as 'illegal' and thus the potential for civil suits brought in the RoC against almost anything done in the North could be possible.

If this kind of increasing legal 'attack' by individuals in the RoC and the RoC itself against those in the North does come to pass then I think there are two possible outcomes. Essential capitulation by TC community to GC demands re a settlement or eventual annexation of the North by Turkey, regardless of her current EU aspirations. I think the latter is ultimately the more probable. I do not want this at all but I fear that there will be little other option if the RoC seeks to use this ECJ ruling and its own EU membership to destroy the ability of the TRNC to function rather than negotiate on a basis of mutual compromise and give and take. What makes this all the more risky is that it is essentially out of the control of the RoC government directly. Even if it were to try and continue to negotiate in good faith on a basis of mutual compromise, it will not be able to prevent individuals in the RoC seeking more and more legal actions against those in the North and nor will it be able to convince its population to support any solution short of near maximal demands if they believe they can 'crush' the TRNC through such legal avenues.

In short my big fear is that the EU has in effect finally destroyed any realistic chance of a settlement in Cyprus, having undermined it originally by agreeing to RoC accession before a settlement in the first place.

Maybe I am being overly pessimistic and am taking too much of a knee jerk reaction to this ruling. I accept this is possible. Maybe the Cyprus and the situation here will really be little different post this ruling than pre it. All I can see at the moment is increasing failure in negotiations, with increasing legal attacks against the North via RoC court judgments, leading to increasing acrimony between the communities and causing increasing tension between Turkey and the EU until Turkish accession talks finally break down totally. Such a scenario in my view can not be good for any Cypriots of any background and geographical location.

I also have to say on a personal level as an individual I am bitterly disappointed in the EU. I had hopes that it could have been an aid to finding a solution in Cyprus, even after agreeing to accession of the RoC without a settlement. Now however it it seems to me that the EU is in fact a major if not the biggest obstacle to finding a lasting solution in Cyprus for all Cypriots. I also feel aggrieved that it seems the EU is saying to me as an individual citizen that I can be held liable for any acts of mine in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, yet can have none of the protections of EU law in the North. In short it seems to be saying to me as an individual I can have all of the liabilities of EU law and none of the benefits or protections, which frankly feels like a 'fuck you' approach.

Hello Erol and glad to see your posts.
Rather than making the above sweeping and /or speculating statements on what the GC side might want to do or not, and given the fact that the fair, logical and balanced GC positions on most issues (including properties,) are already known and on the table (and will not change because of the Orams ruling;) why don’t you tell us what you disagree with, why, and what your side proposes instead?

PS: What benefit or protection of EU law are you denied as an individual, and by whom?

[boomerang]

A message to the darkside,you have won nothing !!! When are you going to recognise that this is all your fault ? You are the ones that started all this ,when you wanted Cyprus to join with the Motherland ,most people want independence ,not you,you morons.You started your bully boy tactics on innocent people and when the Turks came to save there people you ran.The only people who bought peace to this Island are the Turkish Army.I think somehow the TCs might be claiming there land back too ,how many of you are sitting in Mehmets front room.

Oh another brightspark...so between you 2 who is the dumb and who is the dumber?...just wondering...

and learn how to spell you imbecille...

thats funny a cypriot teaching a pom how to spell...no wonder they took your money...and laughed all the way to the bank...

If ever there was a case of being hoist by your own petard this must be it.

I appreciate English is obviously your second language but to criticise others for making just one spelling error when your spelling and use of the language is horrific must warrant you changing your forum name to BLOOMERHUNG. It would have been bad enough if you had made such comments only once in one thread but to do so repetitively takes the biscuit.

The following is a tiny sample of basic spelling and grammar errors (American words excluded) taken from your early comments on this thread.



'and hopefully now they can wipe the smirk of the faces

they should sue the blair bitch for leading them a stray while robbing them of their doe...that will be the icing on the cake...

...if vocated before 74 they can claim it immediately

I wonder if bayarak boy is gonna bambusal us with horseshit

but didn't stop you from capitalizing on other peoples misery

get demolished and vocated

if they vocate the occupyied areas

of cource Christina

ehhhh...where is dumb, dumber and dumbest disappeared too...up the flag pole?... '

AND THE BEST OF ALL 'and learn how to spell you imbecille'

Methinks you should stick to what comes within your capabilities and just use words with no more than three letters.

Yu shud bee

Being hoist[size=7]ed[/size], Mr. T! That is the passive voice, so you need the past participle of the verb. Looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Tim stop wasting your time with idiots...for a journo he missed out on the scoop of the year...

I want to hear more from his "I have it from good authority mates"

@Erol...

Good to hear from you again...I hope all is well

[erolz3]

Rather than making the above sweeping and /or speculating statements on what the GC side might want to do or not, and given the fact that the fair, logical and balanced GC positions on most issues (including properties,) are already known and on the table (and will not change because of the Orams ruling;) why don’t you tell us what you disagree with, why, and what your side proposes instead?

Well to be honest I am releuctant to get drawn into a long and detailed debate about specifics of any proposed agreement simply because we have had these dicussion in length and detail already and going round and round them again is not something I have much interest in tbh.

However having said the above I will try and give a brief example of one area where I feel the GC current position is not fair or balanced.

By insiting that in every case whatever the specifics of that given case are, the pre 74 owner of property must always get their 'first choice' of options in a settlement over any current user in effect places a greater burden of the settlement in this apsect onTC indivduals than it does GC ones, proprtionaly and most probably in absolute numerical terms as well. As I feel that these indivduals are no more personaly to blame for the current situation as it exists today I think this approach is unfair and unrealistic and would like one that seeks to share the burden of the property settlement more equally between the 2 communites, rahter than expect the TC one to bear the biggest brunt of it.

PS: What benefit or protection of EU law are you denied as an individual, and by whom?

I have none of the benefits of EU law on consumer rights and protection, employment rights and protection and countless others. I know you are of the view that I should blame Turkey or the TRNC for not hainvg these rights. However my problem is NOT that I do not have these rights, my problem is that I do not have these rights at the same time that I am deemed to have liabilites of EU law for my actions in the North of Cyprus. And for this I blame the EU, for it is the EU that first says EU law is suspended where I live and then says but EU law can still be used to prosecute me for actions where I live. It is the one sided appraoch of what laws the EU deems covers me and my actions where I live that I object to and I blame the EU for this one sided application. It may be Turkey that makes full application of Eu law impossible where I live but it is the EU that has decided that one sided application is 'fair and legal' despite this. For me natural justice would demand that if the EU is unable to offer me any of the benefits of EU law it should also accept I should not be subject to the negatives of it either. What it is in fact saying to me is exactly the opposite - you have none of the benefits but all of the liabilites and simply because I choose to live in Cyprus, within 1km of the village in which my father grew up in. Seems pretty harsh and unfair to me.

[erolz3]

erolz could you le tme know what these concessions were?

I am not trying to be flippant here DT, but in all honesty if you are unable to see any concession at all within the Annan plan made by the TC community vs the current staus quo or even the original 60's agreements, than for me that is a symptom of the Cyprus problem.

Given the above I see little point in a long an tedious thread where I say 'this was a concession' and you say 'no it was not' that goes on and on and gets nowehere.

[DT.]

erolz could you le tme know what these concessions were?

I am not trying to be flippant here DT, but in all honesty if you are unable to see any concession at all within the Annan plan made by the TC community vs the current staus quo or even the original 60's agreements, than for me that is a symptom of the Cyprus problem.

Given the above I see little point in a long an tedious thread where I say 'this was a concession' and you say 'no it was not' that goes on and on and gets nowehere.

In all honesty Erolz I promise I will not argue against the merits of what I see as a concession. I am just interested to know what you thought was a concession as a TC.

[Kifeas]

However having said the above I will try and give a brief example of one area where I feel the GC current position is not fair or balanced.

By insiting that in every case whatever the specifics of that given case are, the pre 74 owner of property must always get their 'first choice' of options in a settlement over any current user in effect places a greater burden of the settlement in this apsect onTC indivduals than it does GC ones, proprtionaly and most probably in absolute numerical terms as well. As I feel that these indivduals are no more personaly to blame for the current situation as it exists today I think this approach is unfair and unrealistic and would like one that seeks to share the burden of the property settlement more equally between the 2 communites, rahter than expect the TC one to bear the biggest brunt of it.

Erol, the above claims do not accurately reflect the views of the GC side on the issue of properties. Of course the GC side accepts exceptions to the above general rule, mainly in cases of properties used for public benefit works and those used by TCs affected by the events and who use them for making a living (and the content of this acceptance needs to be negotiated and defined.) However, not all those that currently make use of GC properties are innocent individuals as you may wish to see them. They knew or should have known that they were trespassing and illegally investing in GC properties for which their owners did not give their consent, and they should have avoided doing this.

[DT.]

And here comes the Cyprus Mail....and you guys thought they wouldn't

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/

[Tim Drayton]

A message to the darkside,you have won nothing !!! When are you going to recognise that this is all your fault ? You are the ones that started all this ,when you wanted Cyprus to join with the Motherland ,most people want independence ,not you,you morons.You started your bully boy tactics on innocent people and when the Turks came to save there people you ran.The only people who bought peace to this Island are the Turkish Army.I think somehow the TCs might be claiming there land back too ,how many of you are sitting in Mehmets front room.

Oh another brightspark...so between you 2 who is the dumb and who is the dumber?...just wondering...

and learn how to spell you imbecille...

thats funny a cypriot teaching a pom how to spell...no wonder they took your money...and laughed all the way to the bank...

If ever there was a case of being hoist by your own petard this must be it.

I appreciate English is obviously your second language but to criticise others for making just one spelling error when your spelling and use of the language is horrific must warrant you changing your forum name to BLOOMERHUNG. It would have been bad enough if you had made such comments only once in one thread but to do so repetitively takes the biscuit.

The following is a tiny sample of basic spelling and grammar errors (American words excluded) taken from your early comments on this thread.



'and hopefully now they can wipe the smirk of the faces

they should sue the blair bitch for leading them a stray while robbing them of their doe...that will be the icing on the cake...

...if vocated before 74 they can claim it immediately

I wonder if bayarak boy is gonna bambusal us with horseshit

but didn't stop you from capitalizing on other peoples misery

get demolished and vocated

if they vocate the occupyied areas

of cource Christina

ehhhh...where is dumb, dumber and dumbest disappeared too...up the flag pole?... '

AND THE BEST OF ALL 'and learn how to spell you imbecille'

Methinks you should stick to what comes within your capabilities and just use words with no more than three letters.

Yu shud bee

Being hoist[size=7]ed[/size], Mr. T! That is the passive voice, so you need the past participle of the verb. Looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Tim stop wasting your time with idiots...for a journo he missed out on the scoop of the year...

I want to hear more from his "I have it from good authority mates"

@Erol...

Good to hear from you again...I hope all is well

You are confusing Mr. T with Mr. H, I think!

[boomerang]

A message to the darkside,you have won nothing !!! When are you going to recognise that this is all your fault ? You are the ones that started all this ,when you wanted Cyprus to join with the Motherland ,most people want independence ,not you,you morons.You started your bully boy tactics on innocent people and when the Turks came to save there people you ran.The only people who bought peace to this Island are the Turkish Army.I think somehow the TCs might be claiming there land back too ,how many of you are sitting in Mehmets front room.

Oh another brightspark...so between you 2 who is the dumb and who is the dumber?...just wondering...

and learn how to spell you imbecille...

thats funny a cypriot teaching a pom how to spell...no wonder they took your money...and laughed all the way to the bank...

If ever there was a case of being hoist by your own petard this must be it.

I appreciate English is obviously your second language but to criticise others for making just one spelling error when your spelling and use of the language is horrific must warrant you changing your forum name to BLOOMERHUNG. It would have been bad enough if you had made such comments only once in one thread but to do so repetitively takes the biscuit.

The following is a tiny sample of basic spelling and grammar errors (American words excluded) taken from your early comments on this thread.



'and hopefully now they can wipe the smirk of the faces

they should sue the blair bitch for leading them a stray while robbing them of their doe...that will be the icing on the cake...

...if vocated before 74 they can claim it immediately

I wonder if bayarak boy is gonna bambusal us with horseshit

but didn't stop you from capitalizing on other peoples misery

get demolished and vocated

if they vocate the occupyied areas

of cource Christina

ehhhh...where is dumb, dumber and dumbest disappeared too...up the flag pole?... '

AND THE BEST OF ALL 'and learn how to spell you imbecille'

Methinks you should stick to what comes within your capabilities and just use words with no more than three letters.

Yu shud bee

Being hoist[size=7]ed[/size], Mr. T! That is the passive voice, so you need the past participle of the verb. Looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Tim stop wasting your time with idiots...for a journo he missed out on the scoop of the year...

I want to hear more from his "I have it from good authority mates"

@Erol...

Good to hear from you again...I hope all is well

You are confusing Mr. T with Mr. H, I think!

Oh yeah you might be right on this one...thanks....