Cyprus-Forum.com

[halil]

MILLET SAYS PROPERTY DISPUTE CAN ONLY BE SOLVED THROUGH COMPREHENSIVE SETTLEMENT
The British High Commissioner to Cyprus Peter Millet has said that the property dispute in Cyprus can only be solved through a comprehensive settlement.

In a written statement issued today, the British High Commissioner pointed out that the Orams Case was a legal process and not a political one.

He said that the British High Court of Appeal, following the European Court of Justice’s judgment will be delivering the final verdict.

“As can be seen, the property issue which will be solved through a comprehensive settlement continues to be a sensitive and emotional issue for many people in Cyprus” he said.

Commenting on the British Foreign Office’s advice on traveling and living overseas, Millet said that the aim of the advice offered was to warn British nationals on any difficulties or problems they may face while traveling or living overseas.

Explaining that a warning regarding the purchase of immovable property in North Cyprus had been posted on Foreign Office’s website, the British High Commissioner said that advice on property had been reviewed and reissued in line with the possible outcome of the Orams Case.

[miltiades]

Hi to all those that know me

Not sure if I will be allowed to continue to post on this 'bastion of free speech' or not but 'ill give it a go.

First off congratulations to Mr. Apostolides on this legal victory in the ECJ.

What I would like to comment on is how this decision by the ECJ is going to impact the ongoing negotiations re a comprehensive settlement.

I realise that some of you hope and believe that it will help such a process, strengthening the hand of the GC negotiators and forcing greater compromise from TC and Turkey. I am afraid that I do not share such an optimistic view.

I think it is inevitable that this ruling will encourage the GC negotiators to seek greater and greater concessions from the TC side and encourage them to pursue a strategy of little to no compromise and delay whilst they seek to increase external pressure through subsequent cases like the Orams. Whilst such an approach has a chance of leading to 'capitulation' by the TC negotiators, I think that chance is tiny in reality and even if it did result in such I think all we will end up with is an agreement that the TC people will simply be unwilling to endorse. In short I think as far as negotiations for a comprehensive settlement go this ruling has now put us right back to the worst days of post 74 in this regard. This is a worry to me as someone who wants us to achieve a settlement.

I really am concerned at what the ultimate consequences of this judgment are going to be. I think the ramifications of it are massive and go way beyond just the property issue. I hope I am wrong but I fear it may lead us into a level of distrust and non physical conflict between the two communities the likes of which we have not seen for decades. It seems to me that we will over time see ever increasing attempts to use RoC court rulings to 'attack' those in the North, be they Cypriot or non Cypriot and not just individuals but also businesses and corporate entities. We will I fear see cases brought in the RoC against say banks operating in the North 'illegally for example, seeking to get judgments in RoC courts that can then be enforced against these TRNC banks assets in the EU. That is just one example but as far as I understand this ruling I can envisage countless others. Lets face it the RoC considers pretty much everything and anything that goes on in the North as 'illegal' and thus the potential for civil suits brought in the RoC against almost anything done in the North could be possible.

If this kind of increasing legal 'attack' by individuals in the RoC and the RoC itself against those in the North does come to pass then I think there are two possible outcomes. Essential capitulation by TC community to GC demands re a settlement or eventual annexation of the North by Turkey, regardless of her current EU aspirations. I think the latter is ultimately the more probable. I do not want this at all but I fear that there will be little other option if the RoC seeks to use this ECJ ruling and its own EU membership to destroy the ability of the TRNC to function rather than negotiate on a basis of mutual compromise and give and take. What makes this all the more risky is that it is essentially out of the control of the RoC government directly. Even if it were to try and continue to negotiate in good faith on a basis of mutual compromise, it will not be able to prevent individuals in the RoC seeking more and more legal actions against those in the North and nor will it be able to convince its population to support any solution short of near maximal demands if they believe they can 'crush' the TRNC through such legal avenues.

In short my big fear is that the EU has in effect finally destroyed any realistic chance of a settlement in Cyprus, having undermined it originally by agreeing to RoC accession before a settlement in the first place.

Maybe I am being overly pessimistic and am taking too much of a knee jerk reaction to this ruling. I accept this is possible. Maybe the Cyprus and the situation here will really be little different post this ruling than pre it. All I can see at the moment is increasing failure in negotiations, with increasing legal attacks against the North via RoC court judgments, leading to increasing acrimony between the communities and causing increasing tension between Turkey and the EU until Turkish accession talks finally break down totally. Such a scenario in my view can not be good for any Cypriots of any background and geographical location.

I also have to say on a personal level as an individual I am bitterly disappointed in the EU. I had hopes that it could have been an aid to finding a solution in Cyprus, even after agreeing to accession of the RoC without a settlement. Now however it it seems to me that the EU is in fact a major if not the biggest obstacle to finding a lasting solution in Cyprus for all Cypriots. I also feel aggrieved that it seems the EU is saying to me as an individual citizen that I can be held liable for any acts of mine in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, yet can have none of the protections of EU law in the North. In short it seems to be saying to me as an individual I can have all of the liabilities of EU law and none of the benefits or protections, which frankly feels like a 'fuck you' approach.

One of the consequences of this judgement is the end of property sales to Brits and other EU citizens in the areas of the RoC in which the RoC does not exercise effective control .

Another monumental and very profound judgement statement is that the EU clearly sees the events of 1974 as the invasion of Cypriot territory by the Turkish army and the continued military occupation of part of Cyprus.

To suggest that the EU is wrong and that the occupying power is right is absoluletely laughable. The northern part of Cyprus is under the occupation of Turkey who has altered the demographics of the region by forcing more than 160 thousand inhabitants to leave replacing them with settlers from Turkey.
You say that you are bitterly disappointed with the EU , is it because it has refused to accept illegalities and to this day reaffirms that the northern part of Cyprus is very much the property of the RoC ?
The T/Cs , those that still support the Turkish occupation , will have to make a choice , either the remain the pariahs of the international community or they become a part of Europe , to do so Turkey must be sent a clear message by the T/Cs that they want a solution based on the legalities on which the EU and the UN are built upon .
As for your statement that you can be held liable for any acts of yours in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, whats wrong with this. The EU recognises and reaffirms that the RoC is the only legitimate entity in Cyprus , the whole world agrees apart from the occupying power .
Turkey has an obligation to the Turkish Cypriots , Cypriots that she wants annihilated , Cypriots that she wants to absorb and make extinct. Well mate the International community starting with the EU on whose land the occupying army controls the people is having none of it.

The most important development as a result of this judgement is the permanent END of the sale of stolen immovable properties to opportunist Brits and other EU citizens.

I share your concern of the effects on the negotiation process currently taking place , this judgement will have. A reassessment of the Turkish position must now take place as a matter of urgency based on the firm conclusion of the EU , as contained in the judgement , that Turkey is occupying land on EU soil .

Finally you state that "RoC considers pretty much everything and anything that goes on in the North as 'illegal' "
You hit the nail on the head here . The RoC along with the entire world sees the "trnc" as a breakaway regime sustained by the occupying forces and involved in activities such as the sale of properties as in the Orams case which the EU finds "illegal" .
It should not surprise you that the EU bases its judgement on the rule of law .

May I also add that by emphasizing that the indigenous to Cyprus T/Cs , are equal and full citizens of the RoC have exactly the same rights as any other EU citizen.
Their properties under the control of the RoC ARE THEIR PROPERTIES .
The courts of the RoC guarantees that they are theirs and the EU ensures that such guarantees are legal. No Brit can purchase land that belongs to a T/C without the owners consent.

[Tim Drayton]

A message to the darkside,you have won nothing !!! When are you going to recognise that this is all your fault ? You are the ones that started all this ,when you wanted Cyprus to join with the Motherland ,most people want independence ,not you,you morons.You started your bully boy tactics on innocent people and when the Turks came to save there people you ran.The only people who bought peace to this Island are the Turkish Army.I think somehow the TCs might be claiming there land back too ,how many of you are sitting in Mehmets front room.

Oh another brightspark...so between you 2 who is the dumb and who is the dumber?...just wondering...

and learn how to spell you imbecille...

thats funny a cypriot teaching a pom how to spell...no wonder they took your money...and laughed all the way to the bank...

If ever there was a case of being hoist by your own petard this must be it.

I appreciate English is obviously your second language but to criticise others for making just one spelling error when your spelling and use of the language is horrific must warrant you changing your forum name to BLOOMERHUNG. It would have been bad enough if you had made such comments only once in one thread but to do so repetitively takes the biscuit.

The following is a tiny sample of basic spelling and grammar errors (American words excluded) taken from your early comments on this thread.



'and hopefully now they can wipe the smirk of the faces

they should sue the blair bitch for leading them a stray while robbing them of their doe...that will be the icing on the cake...

...if vocated before 74 they can claim it immediately

I wonder if bayarak boy is gonna bambusal us with horseshit

but didn't stop you from capitalizing on other peoples misery

get demolished and vocated

if they vocate the occupyied areas

of cource Christina

ehhhh...where is dumb, dumber and dumbest disappeared too...up the flag pole?... '

AND THE BEST OF ALL 'and learn how to spell you imbecille'

Methinks you should stick to what comes within your capabilities and just use words with no more than three letters.

Yu shud bee

Being hoist[size=7]ed[/size], Mr. T! That is the passive voice, so you need the past participle of the verb. Looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[erolz3]

To suggest that the EU is wrong and that the occupying power is right is absoluletely laughable.

I make no such assertion as far as I am concerned.

You say that you are bitterly disappointed with the EU , is it because it has refused to accept illegalities and to this day reaffirms that the northern part of Cyprus is very much the property of the RoC ?

I say I am disapointed with the EU becacuse I had hopes that it would help a settlement be reach in Cyprus but in fact I beleive it has done the opposite and has only made an settlement harder to reach than before its various acts / non acts re Cyprus (allowing accesion of the RoC without a settlement and this ruling and its failure to deliver on its post anna plan comittments to TC community to name a few)

The T/Cs , those that still support the Turkish occupation , will have to make a choice , either the remain the pariahs of the international community or they become a part of Europe

I think TC will have ultimately have to make a choice between essential capitualtion to near maximal GC demands in Cyprus or resigning themselves to the annexation of the North as part of Turkey and I fear they will ultimately choose the latter than the former.

As for your statement that you can be held liable for any acts of yours in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, whats wrong with this.

What is wrong with it is that at the same time it explicitly denies to me any of the rights and protections that EU aquis gives me re living in the North. To say I am subject to the negative aspects to me of EU Aquis whilst living in the North but can have none of the to me positive ones seems inhernetly unfair to me as an indivdual

The most important development as a result of this judgement is the permanent END of the sale of stolen immovable properties to opportunist Brits and other EU citizens.

It may well end such sales but if it ALSO leads to the annexation of the North by Turkey and a breakdown of relations between Turkey and the EU and permanent for the forseeable future partition of Cyprus and animosity between TC and GC then to me it is a pretty phyrric victory.

May I also add that by emphasizing that the indigenous to Cyprus T/Cs , are equal and full citizens of the RoC have exactly the same rights as any other EU citizen.

Sure as a Cypriot living in the South I have the same rights as any other Cypriot living in the South (on paper at least). However I am a Cypriot that lives in the North and as such I do not have the same rights. I am liable under EU law for my actions in the North that the RoC may deem illegal but I have none of the protection that EU law would afford me if I happened to live in the South in the pace in which I live.

[DT.]

PR TALAT SAYS PROPERTY ISSUE IS NOT A DISPUTE BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS
President Mehmet Ali Talat has said that the Orams Case and the consequent judgment of ECJ was the continuation of the Greek Cypriot Side’s efforts to perceive and portray the property issue as a dispute between individuals.

In an address to the nation, the President said that the Orams Case had gone through a long legal process to which neither the Presidency nor the TRNC’s other official authorities had become directed involved.

He however said that they had closely followed developments in the case between the individuals concerned, providing all kinds of support.

Stating that it would not be correct to express any position or view on the matter before carefully assessing and evaluating the ECJ’s judgment, the President stressed that the ECJ’s failure to acknowledge the fact that the case was not the result of a violation of law by the Orams Couple but the result of the property dispute and the consequent existence of two separate property regimes on the island, was unacceptable.

“Above everything else, it must be known that the ECJ’s judgment is not the end and that the British High Court of Appeal will have the final say on the matter. It will be the British Court which will decide whether or not the Greek Cypriot Court’s ruling will be applicable in the UK” he said.

Talat also reminded that a case filed by the Orams Couple at the European Court of Human Rights against the Greek Cypriot court on claims that they did not receive a fair trial was still continuing.

He said in the event of the Orams Couple winning the case, the fact that the trial in the Greek Cypriot Court was in violation of human rights will be proven.

“It must be known that we perceive the property dispute in Cyprus not as a dispute among individuals but as a result of the Cyprus Problem” he said, adding that it was not possible to solve the property dispute before reaching a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus Problem.

“Settling the property dispute is not only about the property rights of former owners. It will be solved by taking into account the rights of current owners or users through a combination of the methods of compensation, restitution or exchange.

The President said that he had highlighted these realities in all the international contacts he has held.

He said he had explained to foreign dignitaries that the property dispute in Cyprus cannot be solved through cases similar to the Orams case and that any attempt to do so will only serve to strain relations between the two peoples on the island.

“We underlined that such attempts will have a damaging effect on relations between the two peoples as well efforts to reach a comprehensive settlement to the Cyprus Problem” the President added.

The President also reassured the Turkish Cypriot people that whatever the outcome of the British High Court of Appeal will be, the TRNC Presidency and all its state organs will continue to safeguard and apply existing laws.

He also said all necessary responses to Greek Cypriot attempts to weaken the Turkish Cypriot Side’s hand at the negotiating table will be dealt with through solutions formulated in accordance with international law.

Pointing out that the recent developments has once again shown that the Greek Cypriot Side is using its EU membership against the Turkish Cypriot people, President Talat said these developments have at the same time, shown that the EU is not playing a positive and constructive role in solving the Cyprus Problem.

“These developments have also reaffirmed the view expressed in the UN Secretary general’s report dated 27th of May 2005, that the rise in individual court cases poses a serious threat to relations between the two peoples as well as the negotiations process” he added.

Talat reminded that the report had also stated that the property dispute will be solved through a comprehensive settlement to the Cyprus Problem.

who advises this idiot? Why is he setting himself up for another beating?

“Above everything else, it must be known that the ECJ’s judgment is not the end and that the British High Court of Appeal will have the final say on the matter. It will be the British Court which will decide whether or not the Greek Cypriot Court’s ruling will be applicable in the UK” he said.

[Tim Drayton]

[...]
As I keep saying in this forum the Cyprus question for both TCs and GCs is a choice between being inside the tent and pissing out, or outside the tent pissing in. This judgment makes it a whole lot more comfortable to be inside the tent pissing out.

On that point, I can't help reposting the translation that I made of an article by Turgut Afşaroğlu that appeared in Afrika on 5 January 2009:

Lord, what a stupid, what a wretched community we are. It is probably impossible to find another community on this globe that fears the law as much as we do. Persistently and stubbornly we move outside international law, and at the same time are afraid.
***
International law says: - An international agreement, for example the 1960 Cyprus Agreements, retains its validity until a new one is concluded in its place. What did we do after 1974? We imagined that the Republic of Cyprus did not exist. Pushing to one side the fact that the guarantors’ sole right was to restore the broken-down Constitutional order, we abandoned our rights in the Republic of Cyprus. Denktash was elected Republic of Cyprus Vice-President in 1973. He had the right to continue in this capacity until 1978. However, no sooner had the TCFS been founded in 1975 than he abandoned this post. It is unclear whom he asked, from whom he obtained authority. If he had remained in this post until the end, he would have been able to veto the Republic of Cyprus’s unilateral EU entry and the Greek Cypriot side would have been unable to accede to the EU on its own.
***
International law says: - According to the Geneva Convention, moving people to a territory that has been taken by armed force, and granting them citizenship, is a crime. What did we do? First, in the name of agricultural labour we moved people from Turkey, then we gave them citizenship and the right to vote. What was the result? Turkish Cypriots have been turned into a minority in their own region and have been deprived of their political will. The elected have become Ankara’s puppets.
***
International law says: - You cannot hand out title deeds as you wish for land or property that has been taken with armed force, as though it belonged to you. What did we do? We issued title deeds not only to Turkish Cypriots coming from the south, but also to Turks coming from the north. At this point, let me remind you: until the 1985 TRNC Constitution was adopted, only Usage Certificates were issued rather than title deeds. This was because we opposition Founding Assembly members at the time saw to it that, in accordance with international law, an article was placed in the 1975 TCFS Constitution: - Regardless of any other provision in this Constitution, immovable property abandoned by Greek Cypriots may not be transferred to any natural or legal person. This article was removed from the 1985 TRNC Constitution and the mad rush to issue title deeds ensued.
***
First the Loizidou case, then the Aresti and Turkish Bank suits came in quick succession. We have lost all of these suits. You should be in no doubt that the Orams case will also result in our defeat. So what needs to be done? Initially, as Barış Mamalı has said, it is necessary to pay compensation immediately in the Orams case, without awaiting the European Court of Justice judgment and without leaving the English courts to deliberate on the matter. It is then necessary to start similar actions to the Orams case concerning construction without permission on Turkish Cypriot land in South Cyprus. Let me immediately pass on a piece of information: the Greek Cypriot side has not been outdone by us. Construction has taken place on a total of 8357 Turkish Cypriot plots without obtaining permission from the Turkish Cypriot owner. Not only the Orams case, but also suits like the Loizidou, Aresti and Turkish bank suits, create precedents for us. And in these matters we can file countersuits. It is like we said! Turks are afraid of the law.

PS There has recently been some discussion about Afrika's circulation figures. Afrika in fact has the third highest circulation figures among Turkish Cypriot newspapers after Kıbrıs and Yeni Düzen.

[Murataga]

Hi to all those that know me

Not sure if I will be allowed to continue to post on this 'bastion of free speech' or not but 'ill give it a go.

First off congratulations to Mr. Apostolides on this legal victory in the ECJ.

What I would like to comment on is how this decision by the ECJ is going to impact the ongoing negotiations re a comprehensive settlement.

I realise that some of you hope and believe that it will help such a process, strengthening the hand of the GC negotiators and forcing greater compromise from TC and Turkey. I am afraid that I do not share such an optimistic view.

I think it is inevitable that this ruling will encourage the GC negotiators to seek greater and greater concessions from the TC side and encourage them to pursue a strategy of little to no compromise and delay whilst they seek to increase external pressure through subsequent cases like the Orams. Whilst such an approach has a chance of leading to 'capitulation' by the TC negotiators, I think that chance is tiny in reality and even if it did result in such I think all we will end up with is an agreement that the TC people will simply be unwilling to endorse. In short I think as far as negotiations for a comprehensive settlement go this ruling has now put us right back to the worst days of post 74 in this regard. This is a worry to me as someone who wants us to achieve a settlement.

I really am concerned at what the ultimate consequences of this judgment are going to be. I think the ramifications of it are massive and go way beyond just the property issue. I hope I am wrong but I fear it may lead us into a level of distrust and non physical conflict between the two communities the likes of which we have not seen for decades. It seems to me that we will over time see ever increasing attempts to use RoC court rulings to 'attack' those in the North, be they Cypriot or non Cypriot and not just individuals but also businesses and corporate entities. We will I fear see cases brought in the RoC against say banks operating in the North 'illegally for example, seeking to get judgments in RoC courts that can then be enforced against these TRNC banks assets in the EU. That is just one example but as far as I understand this ruling I can envisage countless others. Lets face it the RoC considers pretty much everything and anything that goes on in the North as 'illegal' and thus the potential for civil suits brought in the RoC against almost anything done in the North could be possible.

If this kind of increasing legal 'attack' by individuals in the RoC and the RoC itself against those in the North does come to pass then I think there are two possible outcomes. Essential capitulation by TC community to GC demands re a settlement or eventual annexation of the North by Turkey, regardless of her current EU aspirations. I think the latter is ultimately the more probable. I do not want this at all but I fear that there will be little other option if the RoC seeks to use this ECJ ruling and its own EU membership to destroy the ability of the TRNC to function rather than negotiate on a basis of mutual compromise and give and take. What makes this all the more risky is that it is essentially out of the control of the RoC government directly. Even if it were to try and continue to negotiate in good faith on a basis of mutual compromise, it will not be able to prevent individuals in the RoC seeking more and more legal actions against those in the North and nor will it be able to convince its population to support any solution short of near maximal demands if they believe they can 'crush' the TRNC through such legal avenues.
it.

In short my big fear is that the EU has in effect finally destroyed any realistic chance of a settlement in Cyprus, having undermined it originally by agreeing to RoC accession before a settlement in the first place.

Maybe I am being overly pessimistic and am taking too much of a knee jerk reaction to this ruling. I accept this is possible. Maybe the Cyprus and the situation here will really be little different post this ruling than pre it. All I can see at the moment is increasing failure in negotiations, with increasing legal attacks against the North via RoC court judgments, leading to increasing acrimony between the communities and causing increasing tension between Turkey and the EU until Turkish accession talks finally break down totally. Such a scenario in my view can not be good for any Cypriots of any background and geographical location.

I also have to say on a personal level as an individual I am bitterly disappointed in the EU. I had hopes that it could have been an aid to finding a solution in Cyprus, even after agreeing to accession of the RoC without a settlement. Now however it it seems to me that the EU is in fact a major if not the biggest obstacle to finding a lasting solution in Cyprus for all Cypriots. I also feel aggrieved that it seems the EU is saying to me as an individual citizen that I can be held liable for any acts of mine in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, yet can have none of the protections of EU law in the North. In short it seems to be saying to me as an individual I can have all of the liabilities of EU law and none of the benefits or protections, which frankly feels like a 'fuck you' approach.

erolz - I share all of your above opinions and concerns. A few points I would like to add are the following:

In my point of view, this outcome was inevitable. It became inevitable the day Resolution 186 was passed by the U.N. in 1964. With this resolution the U.N. effectively recognized an RoC usurped by the GC wing via brute force and stripped of its bi-communal nature as legitimate. Ever since, the GCs have been shooting goals to a goalie without a goalkeeper. Today the negotiations are supposedly taking place between two politically equal communities. No sir. The fact of the matter is that it is taking place between two communities, where the one kicked out of the RoC is recognized as an outlaw and the one having managed to kick the other one out recognized as the sole "legal" governing body of the whole island. What kind of a fair solution can come out of this? As in former times, a privileged class never surrenders its tyranny, neither can the GC side be expected to give up their rulership without incentive. As far as incentives go, they have very few and this court ruling has left them with even less.

Despite the presence of an ongoing conflict between the two communities, whose leaders are trying to negogiate a settlement, this court decision in essence grants one of the sides (GC) the inalienable right to judge and convict the other side (TC) simply on its own terms and judicial system. It further made sure that whatever the ruling is, the rest of Europe will obey and implement the decision. To expect the negotiations or any other affair between the two sides to take place on an equal footing is a mere joke.

As a person who is a fervent supporter of a negotiated settlement on this ilsand I regretfully think that this recent development has mostly, if not completely, bashed realistic hopes for a just and viable settlement in Cyprus.

[miltiades]

To suggest that the EU is wrong and that the occupying power is right is absolutely laughable.

I make no such assertion as far as I am concerned.

You say that you are bitterly disappointed with the EU , is it because it has refused to accept illegalities and to this day reaffirms that the northern part of Cyprus is very much the property of the RoC ?

I say I am disapointed with the EU becacuse I had hopes that it would help a settlement be reach in Cyprus but in fact I beleive it has done the opposite and has only made an settlement harder to reach than before its various acts / non acts re Cyprus (allowing accesion of the RoC without a settlement and this ruling and its failure to deliver on its post anna plan comittments to TC community to name a few)

The T/Cs , those that still support the Turkish occupation , will have to make a choice , either the remain the pariahs of the international community or they become a part of Europe

I think TC will have ultimately have to make a choice between essential capitualtion to near maximal GC demands in Cyprus or resigning themselves to the annexation of the North as part of Turkey and I fear they will ultimately choose the latter than the former.

As for your statement that you can be held liable for any acts of yours in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, whats wrong with this.

What is wrong with it is that at the same time it explicitly denies to me any of the rights and protections that EU aquis gives me re living in the North. To say I am subject to the negative aspects to me of EU Aquis whilst living in the North but can have none of the to me positive ones seems inhernetly unfair to me as an indivdual

The most important development as a result of this judgement is the permanent END of the sale of stolen immovable properties to opportunist Brits and other EU citizens.

It may well end such sales but if it ALSO leads to the annexation of the North by Turkey and a breakdown of relations between Turkey and the EU and permanent for the forseeable future partition of Cyprus and animosity between TC and GC then to me it is a pretty phyrric victory.

May I also add that by emphasizing that the indigenous to Cyprus T/Cs , are equal and full citizens of the RoC have exactly the same rights as any other EU citizen.

Sure as a Cypriot living in the South I have the same rights as any other Cypriot living in the South (on paper at least). However I am a Cypriot that lives in the North and as such I do not have the same rights. I am liable under EU law for my actions in the North that the RoC may deem illegal but I have none of the protection that EU law would afford me if I happened to live in the South in the pace in which I live.

This particular paragraph of yours says it all " However I am a Cypriot that lives in the North and as such I do not have the same rights. ""
Ask yourself why you do not have the same rights , could it be the fact that the RoC does not control the occupied parts of Cyprus ?
I'm optimistic by nature and I'm firmly convinced that this judgement will be to the benefit of the entire population of Cyprus. It is not a judgement against the T/Cs or indeed a judgement in support of the G/Cs. It is a judgement in support of law and order that decides the ownership of immovable as well as movable property by determining that the holder of legal deeds continues to be the legal owner of land in a part of Cyprus currently occupied by Turkey. Erolz , this is an undisputed fact , the property that I personally bought legally in Famagusta in 1973 ,( I do not come from Famagusta ) with my hard earned money cant just be taken away from me by force and illegally sold to a Brit, you wouldn't like I'm sure and neither would anyone else.
This judgement might just add the required ingredient in the current round of negotiations so badly needed if we are to succeed and reunite our people as one . One nation one people the Cypriot people . No minorities and no majorities with one and only one homeland the island of Cyprus the ancestral home of all Cypriots .

[Piratis]

Hello Erol.

Nothing will change in the way we negotiate because of this ruling. The Annan plan was overwhelmingly rejected by the Greek Cypriots, and regardless of how the Orams case would turn out, anything that would come out from this negotiations should be a vast improvement over the Annan plan, otherwise our side would not agree for it. If Christofias would agree on something similar to Annan plan it would be rejected in the referendum by GCs again, something which would be very negative for our side.

There was never a question about TC concessions or capitulation. The TCs made no concessions at all, and neither they were asked to do any. Unless you count giving back part of what they illegally hold (and demanding something in return for it!!) as a "concession"?

I personally don't expect many more lawsuits tomorrow. Most people will wait and see if the negotiations can produce a fair solution that would bring justice to them without having to seek justice in courts each one individually.

What should change however is the mentality of TCs. In the last years the TCs had the impression that either GCs would capitulate to their demands for a loose Confederation (basically partition), or else the pseudo state will be recognized, or all the consequences of the illegal occupation would disappear and they would become a "Taiwan". (Some Bananiots were predicting this - they were proven wrong)

I guess you were hopping that EU would force the Greek Cypriots to accept the unfair demands of Turkey and disregard legality, human rights, democracy and everything else in order to help you get the "solution" that you wanted. If this is how you were hopping that EU would assist to get a "solution" then I am glad you are disappointed.

We can make a huge compromise and accept a federal solution with about 18% of land administered by TCs and with certain autonomy within that part, as well as proportional representation in the central government and veto powers on certain issues. That is already a lot of gains for your community compared to the 1960 agreements, and a lot of concessions from our side. If you are not satisfied from this, and you want to continue the war hopping that you can force us to make even more compromises, then you will keep getting disappointed and you will continue to suffer the consequences of the illegal occupation.

Turkey is in full control of the occupied areas since 1974. How Turkey chooses to call the land they illegally occupy, "trnc" or "Cyprus District of Turkey" or whatever, makes no difference. Legally this part of Cyprus is part of Republic of Cyprus as far as the UN, EU and the whole world is concerned. Do you think that if you called the occupied part of Cyprus as "Cyprus District of Turkey" it would make any difference in this or any other ruling in EU or the ECHR?

I also feel aggrieved that it seems the EU is saying to me as an individual citizen that I can be held liable for any acts of mine in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, yet can have none of the protections of EU law in the North. In short it seems to be saying to me as an individual I can have all of the liabilities of EU law and none of the benefits or protections, which frankly feels like a 'fuck you' approach.

TCs can have the Cypriot Citizenship and be equal EU citizens and enjoy many of the benefits. (and many TCs do) Also EU has given many millions for the development of infrastructure in the occupied part of Cyprus.

If you do not get the full benefits of EU this is only because the illegal occupation by Turkey stops this from happening. So be angry at Turkey, not EU.

[Murataga]

To suggest that the EU is wrong and that the occupying power is right is absolutely laughable.

I make no such assertion as far as I am concerned.

You say that you are bitterly disappointed with the EU , is it because it has refused to accept illegalities and to this day reaffirms that the northern part of Cyprus is very much the property of the RoC ?

I say I am disapointed with the EU becacuse I had hopes that it would help a settlement be reach in Cyprus but in fact I beleive it has done the opposite and has only made an settlement harder to reach than before its various acts / non acts re Cyprus (allowing accesion of the RoC without a settlement and this ruling and its failure to deliver on its post anna plan comittments to TC community to name a few)

The T/Cs , those that still support the Turkish occupation , will have to make a choice , either the remain the pariahs of the international community or they become a part of Europe

I think TC will have ultimately have to make a choice between essential capitualtion to near maximal GC demands in Cyprus or resigning themselves to the annexation of the North as part of Turkey and I fear they will ultimately choose the latter than the former.

As for your statement that you can be held liable for any acts of yours in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, whats wrong with this.

What is wrong with it is that at the same time it explicitly denies to me any of the rights and protections that EU aquis gives me re living in the North. To say I am subject to the negative aspects to me of EU Aquis whilst living in the North but can have none of the to me positive ones seems inhernetly unfair to me as an indivdual

The most important development as a result of this judgement is the permanent END of the sale of stolen immovable properties to opportunist Brits and other EU citizens.

It may well end such sales but if it ALSO leads to the annexation of the North by Turkey and a breakdown of relations between Turkey and the EU and permanent for the forseeable future partition of Cyprus and animosity between TC and GC then to me it is a pretty phyrric victory.

May I also add that by emphasizing that the indigenous to Cyprus T/Cs , are equal and full citizens of the RoC have exactly the same rights as any other EU citizen.

Sure as a Cypriot living in the South I have the same rights as any other Cypriot living in the South (on paper at least). However I am a Cypriot that lives in the North and as such I do not have the same rights. I am liable under EU law for my actions in the North that the RoC may deem illegal but I have none of the protection that EU law would afford me if I happened to live in the South in the pace in which I live.

This particular paragraph of yours says it all " However I am a Cypriot that lives in the North and as such I do not have the same rights. ""
Ask yourself why you do not have the same rights , could it be the fact that the RoC does not control the occupied parts of Cyprus ?
I'm optimistic by nature and I'm firmly convinced that this judgement will be to the benefit of the entire population of Cyprus. It is not a judgement against the T/Cs or indeed a judgement in support of the G/Cs. It is a judgement in support of law and order that decides the ownership of immovable as well as movable property by determining that the holder of legal deeds continues to be the legal owner of land in a part of Cyprus currently occupied by Turkey. Erolz , this is an undisputed fact , the property that I personally bought legally in Famagusta in 1973 ,( I do not come from Famagusta ) with my hard earned money cant just be taken away from me by force and illegally sold to a Brit, you wouldn't like I'm sure and neither would anyone else.
This judgement might just add the required ingredient in the current round of negotiations so badly needed if we are to succeed and reunite our people as one . One nation one people the Cypriot people . No minorities and no majorities with one and only one homeland the island of Cyprus the ancestral home of all Cypriots .

The only ingredient added with this judgement is an extra dose of steroids for the GC side to devastate us some more - nothing else.

As far as your "one nation" crap goes: We are Turkish Cypriots. We are a politically equal community with the GCs. Any arrangement undermining this, the concept of bi-zonality and endangering our security is a straight NO. Stop telling us who we are or who we should become!