Cyprus-Forum.com

[wallace]

wallace, yes... but extreme remedy is a can of beer in the morning.

I will follow this advise Ray if I cant find the tap the previous night. Cheers

[bill cobbett]

ohhh the headache today is killing me...any suggestions for a hangover?... between a mate of mine and me we smashed a bottle of zivania and a dozen stubbies...what a session...

I couldn't be bothered going back reading drivel from the morons, but did bananiot take 60 paces backwards, followed with reverse flip and disappearing up his bum...

Once again congrats to Mr A and may justice from now on be fair swift...

Drink a half liter of water before going to bed if you can find the tap that is. Always helps for me

Water is the best.

Just had a couple of very small zivs and I think I may just have another in celebration of this happy day. Call me an over-hopefull optimist but I really do feel a few steps closer to a Free Kyrenia tonight.

Wash your sins away - Yiasas boys and girls.

[boomerang]

wallace, yes... but extreme remedy is a can of beer in the morning.

are you suggesting continuing the drinkothon as a remedy?...hmmm mental note must go to pub for lunch...

[Raymanoff]

ok party is over, we will continue tomorrow...

[boomerang]

ok party is over, we will continue tomorrow...

for some of us it's already tomorrow...

[Kifeas]

Just heard the lawyer representing Apostolides (Kantounas) on radio. He stressed a point that there is no political significance in the court decision.

Kifeas, is it true that Apostolides voted for the Annan Plan? By the way, I know him too, quite well. Please give him my regards.

And what does what he voted in the referendums has to do with all these?

Bananiot, for the sake of argument I would say that Apostolides may indeed have voted for the Annan plan, and perhaps even Candounas. I am neither 100% sure, nor do I believe is right for someone to disclose such an information on somebody else's behalf. I also have relatives and other friends who did vote for the Annan plan, and we still talk and respect each other's views. There is a difference though, between their approach and yours. They voted for the Annan plan because at the time they believed it was the best possible deal we could have attained and that partition was the only other alternative, and not because they were satisfied with the product or that they regarded it as a fair, logical and workable deal. They do not today disrespect the will of those that rejected it, nor they claim that it was a good plan for Cyprus that would have solved the problem in a fair and just manner. They do not act as the tradesmen of the plan, even today; unlike what you sometimes do, at least in this forum. The recent "elections" in the north, but also the fact that Turkey may not in the end make it to the EU -an outcome with which the A-plan was tight up with, should have taught you how wrongful the plan was and how many problems we would have been facing today, essentially becoming hostages of the settlers votes and Turkey's unfulfilled EU ambitions.

[erolz3]

Hi to all those that know me

Not sure if I will be allowed to continue to post on this 'bastion of free speech' or not but 'ill give it a go.

First off congratulations to Mr. Apostolides on this legal victory in the ECJ.

What I would like to comment on is how this decision by the ECJ is going to impact the ongoing negotiations re a comprehensive settlement.

I realise that some of you hope and believe that it will help such a process, strengthening the hand of the GC negotiators and forcing greater compromise from TC and Turkey. I am afraid that I do not share such an optimistic view.

I think it is inevitable that this ruling will encourage the GC negotiators to seek greater and greater concessions from the TC side and encourage them to pursue a strategy of little to no compromise and delay whilst they seek to increase external pressure through subsequent cases like the Orams. Whilst such an approach has a chance of leading to 'capitulation' by the TC negotiators, I think that chance is tiny in reality and even if it did result in such I think all we will end up with is an agreement that the TC people will simply be unwilling to endorse. In short I think as far as negotiations for a comprehensive settlement go this ruling has now put us right back to the worst days of post 74 in this regard. This is a worry to me as someone who wants us to achieve a settlement.

I really am concerned at what the ultimate consequences of this judgment are going to be. I think the ramifications of it are massive and go way beyond just the property issue. I hope I am wrong but I fear it may lead us into a level of distrust and non physical conflict between the two communities the likes of which we have not seen for decades. It seems to me that we will over time see ever increasing attempts to use RoC court rulings to 'attack' those in the North, be they Cypriot or non Cypriot and not just individuals but also businesses and corporate entities. We will I fear see cases brought in the RoC against say banks operating in the North 'illegally for example, seeking to get judgments in RoC courts that can then be enforced against these TRNC banks assets in the EU. That is just one example but as far as I understand this ruling I can envisage countless others. Lets face it the RoC considers pretty much everything and anything that goes on in the North as 'illegal' and thus the potential for civil suits brought in the RoC against almost anything done in the North could be possible.

If this kind of increasing legal 'attack' by individuals in the RoC and the RoC itself against those in the North does come to pass then I think there are two possible outcomes. Essential capitulation by TC community to GC demands re a settlement or eventual annexation of the North by Turkey, regardless of her current EU aspirations. I think the latter is ultimately the more probable. I do not want this at all but I fear that there will be little other option if the RoC seeks to use this ECJ ruling and its own EU membership to destroy the ability of the TRNC to function rather than negotiate on a basis of mutual compromise and give and take. What makes this all the more risky is that it is essentially out of the control of the RoC government directly. Even if it were to try and continue to negotiate in good faith on a basis of mutual compromise, it will not be able to prevent individuals in the RoC seeking more and more legal actions against those in the North and nor will it be able to convince its population to support any solution short of near maximal demands if they believe they can 'crush' the TRNC through such legal avenues.

In short my big fear is that the EU has in effect finally destroyed any realistic chance of a settlement in Cyprus, having undermined it originally by agreeing to RoC accession before a settlement in the first place.

Maybe I am being overly pessimistic and am taking too much of a knee jerk reaction to this ruling. I accept this is possible. Maybe the Cyprus and the situation here will really be little different post this ruling than pre it. All I can see at the moment is increasing failure in negotiations, with increasing legal attacks against the North via RoC court judgments, leading to increasing acrimony between the communities and causing increasing tension between Turkey and the EU until Turkish accession talks finally break down totally. Such a scenario in my view can not be good for any Cypriots of any background and geographical location.

I also have to say on a personal level as an individual I am bitterly disappointed in the EU. I had hopes that it could have been an aid to finding a solution in Cyprus, even after agreeing to accession of the RoC without a settlement. Now however it it seems to me that the EU is in fact a major if not the biggest obstacle to finding a lasting solution in Cyprus for all Cypriots. I also feel aggrieved that it seems the EU is saying to me as an individual citizen that I can be held liable for any acts of mine in the North the RoC deems are illegal under EU law, yet can have none of the protections of EU law in the North. In short it seems to be saying to me as an individual I can have all of the liabilities of EU law and none of the benefits or protections, which frankly feels like a 'fuck you' approach.

[DT.]

Welcome back Erolz, hope you stick around as I'm sure the forum would love to have you.

With regards to the post, I'll get you a more detailed response later on but just as an opener 2 points.

The weight of compromise you have to admit yourself has been on the GC side ever since the AP. Perhaps if this does anything will bring back a little equilibrium to the talks, (maybe not so much for TC positions but more so for pure Turkish positions that had plagued the AP)

Secondly, the President and the govt while having hailed this as a big victory that sets our rights of sovereignty over the entire island in stone, it also should not mean a stampede needs to start.

Like the TC's who were told to hold back on selling GC properties pre-annan and then proceeded to sell everything but the kitchen sink in their "dissapointment"....I also believe something similar will happen here.

If the talks disappoint the GC's then I see the scenario you just described with a stampede of CY court rulings against TC's, EU nationals and TC companies. A legal war to sabotage life in the north as much as possible till it becomes entirely unbearable.

[erolz3]

If the talks disappoint the GC's then I see the scenario you just described with a stampede of CY court rulings against TC's, EU nationals and TC companies. A legal war to sabotage life in the north as much as possible till it becomes entirely unbearable.

I think this is inevitable and as such destroys any chance of a negotiated settlement that both side can sign up to being brokered.

The list of potnetial attacks using this new ruling seems endless to me. Take for example the previously failed attempts by the RoC to get UK courts to prosecute indivduals for using hotels in the North. Now post this ruling the RoC does not need the UK courts to rule on such matters, it simply prosecutes anyone with EU assets for using an 'illegal' hotel in the North and then any other EU court must enforce the fine for them.

Once thse kind of attacks start, and surely they will, what are the realistic options for a settlement ? I would say pretty near zero.

I keep trying to think of senrios that would lead to anything other than an eventual total breakdown of realtions between the EU and Turkey and ultimate anexation of the North, but am failing.

To be honest I feel very depressed right now re the whole senario and pretty much blame the EU for it.

[halil]

PR TALAT SAYS PROPERTY ISSUE IS NOT A DISPUTE BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS
President Mehmet Ali Talat has said that the Orams Case and the consequent judgment of ECJ was the continuation of the Greek Cypriot Side’s efforts to perceive and portray the property issue as a dispute between individuals.

In an address to the nation, the President said that the Orams Case had gone through a long legal process to which neither the Presidency nor the TRNC’s other official authorities had become directed involved.

He however said that they had closely followed developments in the case between the individuals concerned, providing all kinds of support.

Stating that it would not be correct to express any position or view on the matter before carefully assessing and evaluating the ECJ’s judgment, the President stressed that the ECJ’s failure to acknowledge the fact that the case was not the result of a violation of law by the Orams Couple but the result of the property dispute and the consequent existence of two separate property regimes on the island, was unacceptable.

“Above everything else, it must be known that the ECJ’s judgment is not the end and that the British High Court of Appeal will have the final say on the matter. It will be the British Court which will decide whether or not the Greek Cypriot Court’s ruling will be applicable in the UK” he said.

Talat also reminded that a case filed by the Orams Couple at the European Court of Human Rights against the Greek Cypriot court on claims that they did not receive a fair trial was still continuing.

He said in the event of the Orams Couple winning the case, the fact that the trial in the Greek Cypriot Court was in violation of human rights will be proven.

“It must be known that we perceive the property dispute in Cyprus not as a dispute among individuals but as a result of the Cyprus Problem” he said, adding that it was not possible to solve the property dispute before reaching a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus Problem.

“Settling the property dispute is not only about the property rights of former owners. It will be solved by taking into account the rights of current owners or users through a combination of the methods of compensation, restitution or exchange.

The President said that he had highlighted these realities in all the international contacts he has held.

He said he had explained to foreign dignitaries that the property dispute in Cyprus cannot be solved through cases similar to the Orams case and that any attempt to do so will only serve to strain relations between the two peoples on the island.

“We underlined that such attempts will have a damaging effect on relations between the two peoples as well efforts to reach a comprehensive settlement to the Cyprus Problem” the President added.

The President also reassured the Turkish Cypriot people that whatever the outcome of the British High Court of Appeal will be, the TRNC Presidency and all its state organs will continue to safeguard and apply existing laws.

He also said all necessary responses to Greek Cypriot attempts to weaken the Turkish Cypriot Side’s hand at the negotiating table will be dealt with through solutions formulated in accordance with international law.

Pointing out that the recent developments has once again shown that the Greek Cypriot Side is using its EU membership against the Turkish Cypriot people, President Talat said these developments have at the same time, shown that the EU is not playing a positive and constructive role in solving the Cyprus Problem.

“These developments have also reaffirmed the view expressed in the UN Secretary general’s report dated 27th of May 2005, that the rise in individual court cases poses a serious threat to relations between the two peoples as well as the negotiations process” he added.

Talat reminded that the report had also stated that the property dispute will be solved through a comprehensive settlement to the Cyprus Problem.