Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

U shut up dirty propagandist, retard! U r an ultra-nationalist that haven't even accepted just a single mistake made by ur ultra nationalist Akritas Team.

We were talking about innocent, young, old, weak victims of the Turkish invasion ... a humanitarian issue that the most cold-hearted would respect, .... and insan you failed as a humane individual. You failed as a beholder of any morality. You have with your own words, proved yourself a depraved individual and turning things to "Akritas" does not absolve you of the crime of supporting the rape and killing of civilians ....

Goodbye sick "man" ...

Please take DT. up on his offer ... you may yet save your lost soul!

Bye retard, Oracle. Next time gimme the official link of that so-called document though it is proven that is just another dirty propaganda shit of ur Team Akritas.

Stop squirming cornered worm ... the links have all been offered to you, but you cannot see through your Turkish blindness ...

Now, are you man enough to meet up with DT.? .... and apologise to the Cypriots on whose Island you reside, you invading Turkish settler?

U r too ridiculous retard Oracle. Go home u retard Greek! U r a settler in Cyprus not me.

If DT wants to meet with me he just needs to ask Halil's assistance.

I was born on Cyprus and I support the RoC ... you are Turkish, in thought and manner and birth! Fuck off!

A retard ultra-nationalist Greek like u(more fierce than Ionnides and Sampson) is incapable to judge anyone's Cypriotness.

[David Carter]

FOR THE ATTENTION OF MR POLIS

Thank you for your question about British service losses in Cyprus during the 1955-59 period. This is what I wrote on the BSW site when I began compiling my list of fatalities:

"THE EOKA conflict in Cyprus is certainly one of Britain's 'forgotten wars'. It lasted between April 1, 1955 and officially ended on December 24, 1959. At its height, more than 30,000 British troops were assigned to combat EOKA, the Greek Cypriot terrorist organization commanded by Colonel George Grivas of the Greek Army and funded by the Orthodox Church led by Archbishop Makarios.

"Officially, 104 British military personnel lost their lives in Cyprus. But research conducted on behalf of BSW indicates there were more than 360 deaths. Yet there are no memorials in the length and breadth of the British Isles that carry their names. (NB That situation has now changed by a memorial to ALL British losses ANYWHERE in the world since the end of WW2)

"Asked for a full list of these men, the UK's Ministry of Defense in London's Whitehall said none existed, but officials hoped to compile one soon. The task would be 'difficult' and 'time consuming', they claimed.

"Less than a year later, without any official assistance, I sent MoD the names, ranks, service numbers and dates of death of 88 British servicemen, which left the UK government only 17 more to find. In November 2000, I passed them a further 63 names."

Then follows the BSW list of names of each soldier, with rank, number and date of death, which I compiled over several years by studying the records of individual units and contemporary press reports. I have found some minor inconsistencies and as I acquire new information (which can be verified) I amend the list.

The period covered by the BSW list is from 1 April 1955 to 31 December 1959 (the official date of the end of the "Emergency") I have never stopped to count the number of names on my list.

The Memorial project team gives the figure as 371, but they start their list on 1 April 1955 and end it on 18 April 1959.

Both lists have been checked and verified against British Government records - a long and laborious task.

Neither list claims those named were killed by EOKA.

Both lists give the names of those who DIED on active service. If you exclude deaths by traffic accidents, "friendly fire" incidents, illness and other causes, the total is cut by approximately two thirds.

I do not welcome Mr Droushiotis being called a "liar". A liar to me is a person who knowingly spreads falsehoods. In my opinion I prefer to believe Mr Droushiotis simply got his "facts" wrong or misunderstood what I had published on the BSW site. In any event, the basis of his article, if I recall, was less to discredit me and more to criticize claims by the EOKA Association. I could be wrong.

What surprises me about this forum is the needlessly offensive language by many contributors. They generate a lot of heat, but not much light.

Regards
David

[polis]

Neither list claims those named were killed by EOKA.

Both lists give the names of those who DIED on active service. If you exclude deaths by traffic accidents, "friendly fire" incidents, illness and other causes, the total is cut by approximately two thirds.

So your estimate is that those who died as a result of the emergency or EOKA activities is about 120?

[miltiades]

Colonel Grivas through a proclamation following the Zurich Agreements , called the end of the struggle on March 9th 1959.
Grivas left for Greece on March 17th 1959 .
I do not understand the "official " end of the conflict date given by David as Dec 24th 1959 , by which time Cyprus was being administered by the new constitution as per the Zurich agreements.

[Oracle]

"Officially, 104 British military personnel lost their lives in Cyprus. But research conducted on behalf of BSW indicates there were more than 360 deaths.

So what makes your source more reliable than the Official source?

Yet there are no memorials in the length and breadth of the British Isles that carry their names. (NB That situation has now changed by a memorial to ALL British losses ANYWHERE in the world since the end of WW2)

Britain rightfully is trying to undo the harm of Colonialism ... which is perhaps why this "Memorial" is not wanted in the UK!

"Less than a year later, without any official assistance, I sent MoD the names, ranks, service numbers and dates of death of 88 British servicemen, which left the UK government only 17 more to find. In November 2000, I passed them a further 63 names."

But the MoD has not endorsed your figures, have they Mr Carter?

I have found some minor inconsistencies and as I acquire new information (which can be verified) I amend the list.

How about waiting till you have some accurate figures, instead of peddling "half-truths"?

I have never stopped to count the number of names on my list.

Sounds like you carelessly fling out a number, as suits, compiling your statistics in true Stalinist fashion.

Neither list claims those named were killed by EOKA.

Guilty by implication then?

I do not welcome Mr Droushiotis being called a "liar". A liar to me is a person who knowingly spreads falsehoods. In my opinion I prefer to believe Mr Droushiotis simply got his "facts" wrong or misunderstood what I had published on the BSW site. In any event, the basis of his article, if I recall, was less to discredit me and more to criticize claims by the EOKA Association. I could be wrong.

Perhaps you are both "knowingly spreading falsehoods"?

What surprises me about this forum is the needlessly offensive language by many contributors. They generate a lot of heat, but not much light.

If people such as you and Mr Drousiotis would take the time and trouble to get their figures right in the first place, less of that "light" would act to inflame the brainwashed Turks looking to justify their actions ...

Talking about "flames" ... can you explain this nugget from your site:

Alongside him was a copy of Kazantzakis’ Christ Recrucified, its fly leaf bore the name of Abbot Irineos. Afxentiou had borrowed the book when he left the Abbot's room in the monastery.

The poor man was burnt to carbon, yet his "book" remained recognisable and readable?

Thank you, Mr Carter ... let's all try and see the flickering gentle light together, instead of some Colonially minded "truth-peddlers" blinding others with their "bright" source ...

[David Carter]

POLIS: [/size]I think the UK Government figure of 104 deaths caused by EOKA is probably correct

MILTIADES: I also find it odd that the end of the so-called Emergency is given as 24 December 1959, although, it should be remembered, that the colonial administration did not hand over the reins of power until 16 August 1960. From March 1959 to around June/July 1960, discussions continued between the various parties on the details of the various agreements and their implementation.

ORACLE: I believe my research and that of my colleagues is about as accurate as possible, because we have the names of the soldiers, their ranks, serial numbers, and dates of death. In addition we have photographs of the headstones of their graves, newspaper clippings and extracts from the journals of the regiments/services to which they belonged. How much more proof would satisfy you?

Be realistic, I don't think today's Minister of Defense is going to stand up in the Chamber of the House of Commons and declare: 'I endorse David Carter's figures!' I refer you to my comments above.

Oracle, get this into your brain, I never have and never will peddle half truths. Before you make accusations of any kind, please back them back with even a modicum of truth. Otherwise, just keep silent. Mr Droushiotis is perfectly capable of answering for himself - and may well do, if a previous contributor is to be believed.

Guilty by association? I don't understand your logic. A list of deaths is a list of deaths. Nothing more, nothing less. At no stage have I said ALL these individuals were victims of EOKA attacks. I have plainly stated that they died 'on active service' in Cyprus. Just as today, allied forces die in Iraq and Afghanistan, not all lose their lives due to fighting the 'enemy'.

I agree that contemporary reports that say Afxentiou was found with 'Christ Recrucified' on his burnt body are very odd - and I raise that point in the book I'm currently writing. But no more odd than some of the claims by General Grivas in his Memoirs, where he quotes the last words of one or other of his fighters, when there were no witnesses to hear them. The same may be said for other books that tell a story of the 55-59 conflict.

Enjoy the day
David

[Oracle]

My dear Mr Carter,
thank you for taking the time to answer my queries, I do believe I can see some light shining into my dark cave ....

ORACLE: I believe my research and that of my colleagues is about as accurate as possible, because we have the names of the soldiers, their ranks, serial numbers, and dates of death. In addition we have photographs of the headstones of their graves, newspaper clippings and extracts from the journals of the regiments/services to which they belonged. How much more proof would satisfy you?

Be realistic, I don't think today's Minister of Defense is going to stand up in the Chamber of the House of Commons and declare: 'I endorse David Carter's figures!' I refer you to my comments above.

Agreed. They don't need to. They endorse the Official figures!

Which figures will this "Memorial" commemorate (if it goes ahead)?

... The Official figures ?

... Or, your figures?

Oracle, get this into your brain, I never have and never will peddle half truths. Before you make accusations of any kind, please back them back with even a modicum of truth. Otherwise, just keep silent. Mr Droushiotis is perfectly capable of answering for himself - and may well do, if a previous contributor is to be believed.

If your figures are so different to the Official figures ... one of these sources is peddling "half truths".

Guilty by association? I don't understand your logic. A list of deaths is a list of deaths. Nothing more, nothing less. At no stage have I said ALL these individuals were victims of EOKA attacks. I have plainly stated that they died 'on active service' in Cyprus. Just as today, allied forces die in Iraq and Afghanistan, not all lose their lives due to fighting the 'enemy'.

Semantics Mr Carter, I do agree; and political rhetoric is a powerful tool ...

I agree that contemporary reports that say Afxentiou was found with 'Christ Recrucified' on his burnt body are very odd - and I raise that point in the book I'm currently writing. But no more odd than some of the claims by General Grivas in his Memoirs, where he quotes the last words of one or other of his fighters, when there were no witnesses to hear them. The same may be said for other books that tell a story of the 55-59 conflict.

So in the interest of, us all, avoiding peddling "half truths", now that you confess to being at odds with this "truth" your site peddles ... will you be removing it?

May I suggest you then include this fine poem by a Brit., I do believe, though anonymous, which was posted here by our Get Real! on his thread:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23871


“Come out, come out, young Gregory, there’s guns all round your cave.
The sun’s rising over the mountains and you've only one life to save.

Your price is paid, young Gregory, while you sleep deep underground
For the man that brings the soldiers shall have five thousand pound.

Can't you hear their officer calling? He speaks your language plain,
So lift your hands and meet him and you'll see the sun again

Five men lay down together five men last night were brave,
But four went to daylight and one stayed in the cave

You're alone, young Gregory, your friends have gone from you,
They chose a life in prison and you may choose it too.

Come in, come in, he shouted, for I am but one man,
One man and his gun are waiting, come fetch me if you can.

They are sixty in the daylight and one in the dark within
But the one will not surrender and the sixty daren't go in.

So the guns begin to crackle and fast the bullets fly
And the sun young Gregory cannot see is noon-high in the sky

You bleed, you bleed, young Gregory now come out without shame,
A wounded man may save his life and there'll be none to blame.

But still young Gregory's shooting and the soldiers have no rest
And the hours pass ill darkness and the sun goes to the west.

Machine-guns go to fetch him, grenades are next to try,
Tear-gas is sent to blind him, the man who will not die.
Then the petrol barrels lumber out of the soldiers’ sight,
And the bullets set them burning and the cave is blazing bright,

But still the gun is speaking and the sixty hear the one
And the light is grey with evening and the battle is not done.

Now the engineers are busy, they lay their charge and train,
And the sixty men stand silent who need not shoot again,

And dynamite and petrol are piled among the rocks,
For when the hounds are wearied all's fair to kill a fox.

And the village on the hilltop is shaken with the din,
And when the cave is silent the sixty men go in.

Then the Governor came to tell them how bravely they had done,
for the regiment gained new honor when sixty men killed one.

But when brother speaks to brother and father to his son,
In the memory of his people young Gregory Lives on.”

[polis]

Guys, to build a memorial even on private land you need planning permission from the local municipal council.

No municipal council (other than a Turkish one) will grant permission for the erection of a memorial for the British servicemen that died in Cyprus unless public opinion towards the British involvement in Cyprus changes so drastically that none of us really cares any more if the memorial is erected. Capito?

[Eurasia]

The British do what they have always done.Cause nothing but misery and trouble to all those they have touched.

[Oracle]

Guys, to build a memorial even on private land you need planning permission from the local municipal council.

No municipal council (other than a Turkish one) will grant permission for the erection of a memorial for the British servicemen that died in Cyprus unless public opinion towards the British involvement in Cyprus changes so drastically that none of us really cares any more if the memorial is erected. Capito?

Good point Polis, but it was ignored by Mr Carter when suggested to him earlier. Silly us for thinking that Colonialists would apply for Planning permission

I do understand that Mr Carter has tried to be most obliging and without appearing to be too much of a nuisance I would have liked him to respond to a few other matters before he retired to complete his new book ....

Until we hear otherwise from Mr Carter, I will assume the figures to be commemorated on this (putative) "Memorial" are his figures and not the official MoD figures ... So I would like to know why this is not made clear to the general British public, from whom the organisers are seeking funding?