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Boycott "The Telegraph" Newspaper? What more?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Tue May 05, 2009 7:21 pm

EricSeans wrote:Paphitis said: "The only thing we could condemn is Gordon Rayner's description of EOKA freedom fighters as "terrorists".

But there's the rub, isn't it? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. EOKA, TMT, IRA, INLA, UDA, Taliban, Iraqi insurgents etc are all terrorists or former terrorists. The semantics may change over the years but the definition is the same.

If I was engaged in armed struggle against an enemy occupier of my country, being described as a terrorist by my intended targets would be the least of my worries. If I wasn't terrorising the enemy I wouldn't be much of a freedom fighter. I'm pretty sure a good few of us have shaken hands with killers on both sides of Cyprus, whether we knew it or not. The point is that whether we call them freedom fighters or terrorists, when that stage of history is over we have to move on to the next.

This avoidance of reality is no different to the degenerates in the north who talk about the Turkish "intervention" of 1974. Any amphibious and airborne attack by one country against another is an invasion. Do we talk about the Allied intervention of Normandy? Or the Coalition intervention of Iraq? Or the Argentinian intervention of the Falklands, for that matter?

Only someone who feels shame or incomprehension is afraid of using the appropriate word in any situation.


This is a very simplistic overview in my opinion. The struggle of non-violent GC ENOSIS VS TC ENOSIS, GC ENOSIS VS TC TAKSIM, Majority Rules VS Political Equality of 2 communities and violent GC Armed Struggle VS TC armed Struggle r all different forms of the essentially and politically same national causes backed by "motherlands" and their then the "allies".

The form and basis of the non-violent and violent struggle between 2 communities had been developed in perfect correlation with then the global/national/local political movements, circumstances, international relations.

The armed struggle of 50s and 60s was in perfect correlation with then the political circumstances of primirily the world and secondarily of Greece. The neo fascist-movement in Greece was in the interests of US against the spread of communism but on the other hand the Enosis armed struggle of neo-fascist political groups of Greece backed Grivas was not in the interests of Anglo-Americans neither it was in the interests of Turkey. It wasn't even in the interests of USSR.

From this viewpoint we can no doubt base our arguments on the basis that eveything developes in correlation of the then political movements, international relations, alliances, sub-alliances, relations between different political interest groups of same nation or different nations etc.

Under the circumstances of 50s where neo-fascist movemnt in Greece was on the rise, appearance of a Grivas minded man could be expected. Grivas had a very significant role on initiation of EOKA armed struggle.

Grivas, imo was very intelligent man but not as much intelligent as to comprehend he would fail. Perhaps he was aware of that he had no chance to win against common interests of Anglo-Americans and Turks but his ultra-nationalistic psyhostimulants coerced him to organize EOKA for ENOSIS at any costs.

Grivas was a national fascist fighting for the interests of national fascists of Greece. Fascists all around the world had/have unique to themselves and to particular circumstances, fighting/struggling tactics and methods. Some political groups may define it as terrorism, some others as an honourable patriotic movement and some others as anything else...
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Postby EricSeans » Tue May 05, 2009 8:06 pm

Yes, it's a simplistic overview and was only really intended to compare and contrast with the invasion/intervention nonsense we get in the north.


insan wrote:
EricSeans wrote:Paphitis said: "The only thing we could condemn is Gordon Rayner's description of EOKA freedom fighters as "terrorists".

But there's the rub, isn't it? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. EOKA, TMT, IRA, INLA, UDA, Taliban, Iraqi insurgents etc are all terrorists or former terrorists. The semantics may change over the years but the definition is the same.

If I was engaged in armed struggle against an enemy occupier of my country, being described as a terrorist by my intended targets would be the least of my worries. If I wasn't terrorising the enemy I wouldn't be much of a freedom fighter. I'm pretty sure a good few of us have shaken hands with killers on both sides of Cyprus, whether we knew it or not. The point is that whether we call them freedom fighters or terrorists, when that stage of history is over we have to move on to the next.

This avoidance of reality is no different to the degenerates in the north who talk about the Turkish "intervention" of 1974. Any amphibious and airborne attack by one country against another is an invasion. Do we talk about the Allied intervention of Normandy? Or the Coalition intervention of Iraq? Or the Argentinian intervention of the Falklands, for that matter?

Only someone who feels shame or incomprehension is afraid of using the appropriate word in any situation.


This is a very simplistic overview in my opinion. The struggle of non-violent GC ENOSIS VS TC ENOSIS, GC ENOSIS VS TC TAKSIM, Majority Rules VS Political Equality of 2 communities and violent GC Armed Struggle VS TC armed Struggle r all different forms of the essentially and politically same national causes backed by "motherlands" and their then the "allies".

The form and basis of the non-violent and violent struggle between 2 communities had been developed in perfect correlation with then the global/national/local political movements, circumstances, international relations.

The armed struggle of 50s and 60s was in perfect correlation with then the political circumstances of primirily the world and secondarily of Greece. The neo fascist-movement in Greece was in the interests of US against the spread of communism but on the other hand the Enosis armed struggle of neo-fascist political groups of Greece backed Grivas was not in the interests of Anglo-Americans neither it was in the interests of Turkey. It wasn't even in the interests of USSR.

From this viewpoint we can no doubt base our arguments on the basis that eveything developes in correlation of the then political movements, international relations, alliances, sub-alliances, relations between different political interest groups of same nation or different nations etc.

Under the circumstances of 50s where neo-fascist movemnt in Greece was on the rise, appearance of a Grivas minded man could be expected. Grivas had a very significant role on initiation of EOKA armed struggle.

Grivas, imo was very intelligent man but not as much intelligent as to comprehend he would fail. Perhaps he was aware of that he had no chance to win against common interests of Anglo-Americans and Turks but his ultra-nationalistic psyhostimulants coerced him to organize EOKA for ENOSIS at any costs.

Grivas was a national fascist fighting for the interests of national fascists of Greece. Fascists all around the world had/have unique to themselves and to particular circumstances, fighting/struggling tactics and methods. Some political groups may define it as terrorism, some others as an honourable patriotic movement and some others as anything else...
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Postby miltiades » Tue May 05, 2009 8:29 pm

erolz3 wrote:For me a terrorist is simply defined by someone who uses terror as a means of achieving their aims. For me terrorism can be considered justified to a degree or not depending on the situation, but it remains terrorism for me by the above simple definition. I also think that as a far as a state seeks to use terror as a means of achieving an aim , it is a terrorist state in this regard. If terror is a means you use then you are by my definition a terrorist. How justified that resort to using terror as a means to achieve a given aim is for me a separate issue.

I'm afraid I have to disagree on this Erolz. Firstly any armed struggle does contain an element of terror , the French resistance during the second WW used terror in order to resist the occupying German troops and to cause as much damage to the enemy while at the same time helping the allies. Nobody can possibly call the French resistance as a terrorist organization , nobody that is apart from the occupiers at the time.
The same criteria must be used in describing EOKA in its struggle to liberate Cyprus from the occupying power .
As far as Britain is concerned Cyprus was a British colony therefore it was not occupied by Britain but administered .

If we look at today's terrorists , Al Qaeda , Jihadis , the London July 7 bombers etc , these REAL terrorists are not engaged in a battle of liberation but in a disgraceful murdering crusade against innocent people , men women and children for the simple reason that they not only hate them but also have as their agenda the destruction of civilization and the return of barbarism. EOKA was not by any length of the imagination such an organization.
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Postby erolz3 » Tue May 05, 2009 9:13 pm

Miltiades I realise my view is not a 'mainstream one'

I actualy would consider the French Resistance in WW2 a terrorist organisation, as far as it used terror to achive its aims. I do not think this is the same as using violence by the way. Blowing up a train to hinder communication , or an military base would to me be acts ov violence. Murdering colaborators or German soliders whilst not on duty would be acts of terror.

As I say , for me I do believe that under some conditions one can resort to the use of terror as a means of achienving ones aims (thus in my view being a terrorist) and for this resort to terror as a means to be considerd justified. As I believe it is much harder to justify the use of terror than the use of violence, which itself is harder to justify than the use of non violent means.
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Postby Lit » Tue May 05, 2009 9:45 pm

erolz3 wrote:Miltiades I realise my view is not a 'mainstream one'

I actualy would consider the French Resistance in WW2 a terrorist organisation, as far as it used terror to achive its aims. I do not think this is the same as using violence by the way. Blowing up a train to hinder communication , or an military base would to me be acts ov violence. Murdering colaborators or German soliders whilst not on duty would be acts of terror.

As I say , for me I do believe that under some conditions one can resort to the use of terror as a means of achienving ones aims (thus in my view being a terrorist) and for this resort to terror as a means to be considerd justified. As I believe it is much harder to justify the use of terror than the use of violence, which itself is harder to justify than the use of non violent means.


:lol:

What are you talking about? German solders had no right to be on French soil, period.
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Postby Oracle » Tue May 05, 2009 10:35 pm

The issue isn't about what Britain calls EOKA .... who gives a care! :roll:

It's about a Memorial on our soil, to those people who came here to enslave us, and keep us so!

How stupid is that?

By ignoring our wishes, they are continuing the Colonisation mentality ...

Clearly that is their aim, and not a "dignified memorial".
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Postby EricSeans » Tue May 05, 2009 10:41 pm

Hi David,

I'm ex-forces and spoke out on this issue when it first emerged on the TRNC forums. IMO it's in poor taste to politicise this memorial and it tarnishes the memory of the servicemen and young conscripts who died after being drafted to Cyprus.

If this memorial has waited for 50 years, surely it could have waited another few months or a year or so to see out the peace process. I suspect it has been exploited by those who support the illegal occupation and division of Cyprus to gain some tacit recognition of the north. As journalists you and I both know the sub-text of the Telegraph piece and its readership profile.

I can see you homed in on positive reaction from someone of GC background, which is good PR for the supporters of this plan. But don't you feel that as a personal friend of Rauf Denktas and strong supporter of the Turkish position in Cyprus, your motive and methods are not entirely in good faith?

David Carter wrote:Dear Mr Paphiti

I am not directly involved with the memorial, although I know many of those who are involved. I look forward to our direct contact. By the way, I never served in Cyprus or lost a relative there, but I appreciate your kind remarks.

Best wishes to you and yours
David
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Postby The Cypriot » Tue May 05, 2009 10:44 pm

EricSeans wrote:Hi David,

I'm ex-forces and spoke out on this issue when it first emerged on the TRNC forums. IMO it's in poor taste to politicise this memorial and it tarnishes the memory of the servicemen and young conscripts who died after being drafted to Cyprus.

If this memorial has waited for 50 years, surely it could have waited another few months or a year or so to see out the peace process. I suspect it has been exploited by those who support the illegal occupation and division of Cyprus to gain some tacit recognition of the north. As journalists you and I both know the sub-text of the Telegraph piece and its readership profile.

I can see you homed in on positive reaction from someone of GC background, which is good PR for the supporters of this plan. But don't you feel that as a personal friend of Rauf Denktas and strong supporter of the Turkish position in Cyprus, your motive and methods are not entirely in good faith?

David Carter wrote:Dear Mr Paphiti

I am not directly involved with the memorial, although I know many of those who are involved. I look forward to our direct contact. By the way, I never served in Cyprus or lost a relative there, but I appreciate your kind remarks.

Best wishes to you and yours
David



Sharp intake of breath! :shock:

Ebathen din Hiotiga o Bafidis mas!
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Postby Oracle » Tue May 05, 2009 10:52 pm

Can we jettison Paphitis? :?

.... I hear when pilots have been flying too long, the increased radiation they are exposed to, does bad stuff to their brains.

EricSeans ... excellent perception (as always :wink: ).
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Postby YFred » Tue May 05, 2009 10:55 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
EricSeans wrote:Hi David,

I'm ex-forces and spoke out on this issue when it first emerged on the TRNC forums. IMO it's in poor taste to politicise this memorial and it tarnishes the memory of the servicemen and young conscripts who died after being drafted to Cyprus.

If this memorial has waited for 50 years, surely it could have waited another few months or a year or so to see out the peace process. I suspect it has been exploited by those who support the illegal occupation and division of Cyprus to gain some tacit recognition of the north. As journalists you and I both know the sub-text of the Telegraph piece and its readership profile.

I can see you homed in on positive reaction from someone of GC background, which is good PR for the supporters of this plan. But don't you feel that as a personal friend of Rauf Denktas and strong supporter of the Turkish position in Cyprus, your motive and methods are not entirely in good faith?

David Carter wrote:Dear Mr Paphiti

I am not directly involved with the memorial, although I know many of those who are involved. I look forward to our direct contact. By the way, I never served in Cyprus or lost a relative there, but I appreciate your kind remarks.

Best wishes to you and yours
David



Sharp intake of breath! :shock:

Ebathen din Hiotiga o Bafidis mas!

Na bai stanatheman ginos ge bumbollas.
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