Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Folks, it doesn't matter what "breed" (insan's word) the Settlers are ... people are basically the same (hard to believe for those of you raised in the "TRNC", I'm sure).

It's the PROCESS of colonisation and the motives behind it that matter ....

[halil]

insan
Turkey never brought in settlers with Kurdish background..
the majority of the settlers brought in after 1974 and given GC property were Laz...
Kurds came here much later as workforce and did not benefit from property handouts..

Have any of these families kept the Laz language alive?

yes Tim ,
they can speak Laz language too even the young ones .

at my work place we have Kurds and Lazs as well . They all came at 1975 .
Some of them lives in Kaplıca ,Gelincik ,iskele and değirmenlik . they were 7-10 years old at that time .

It seems that an incredible amount of linguistic and ethnic diversity has been imported from mainland Turkey. You can hear Kurdish and Arabic spoken in the walled section of Nicosia, and you say that some families are keeping the Laz language alive. There are a lot of Alevis in Cyprus now, as well. There are proportionally fewer monolingual Turkish-speaking Sunni Moslems who make up the backbone of Turkish national identity in Turkey. I can't help wondering how this affects the sense of identity that these people have, and especially that of their Cyprus-born children.

@iceman .... that what they said .... now i have asked my friend from work what language he speaks he gave me this link .
http://www.geocities.com/arzu_barske/laz1.html

It is true Tim lots of Alevis in Cyprus too .Some of them candidate in this coming electiones too .

for u to read Tim.
http://www.yeniduzengazetesi.com/templa ... &zoneid=17

[Omer Seyhan]

Loyalty of TCs,"Settlers"and "Settlers" breeds towards Turkey

Omer Seyhan wrote:

Turkey's idea of getting a foot hold in Cyprus is through a air / naval base in Karpaz (with a contingent of troops to protect its Southern flanks) and with a small population of its own - settlers. Turkey does not accept Turkish Cypriots as loyal but as Cypriots, so they move their own people in. This is a different issue. We can discuss this if you like in more detail.

Omer,

As far as I observed as aTC like to conduct observations almost abt everything, the first wave of settlers were from laz and Kurdish origin, peasants. Almost all of them had average education and couldn't even talk Turkish, properly. In 5-10 years time all of them absorbed TC culture and way of life. The little kids they brought to Northern Cyprus and their Cyprus born breeds r almost impossible to differenciate from TCs. The second wave of settlers were mostly Arabic origin from Hatay and due to their isolated environment in old Nicosia(inner Walls), they couldn't have much opportunity to get integrated into TC community. They support various TC political parties.

Few political parties founded by a group of settlers could have never passed the required threshold in order to be represented in TRNC assembly. 2 main political parties of TCs have always been UBP and CTP which got abt 65% of the votes.

The "loyalty" of TCs towards Turkey depends on all kinds of mutual relations with Turkish governments. Same goes with the settler origin TCs in TRNC. How satisfactory r the bilateral relations for TCs, that much the TCs happy with Turkey and "loyal" to her. Actually it's not a matter of "loyalty" but it would be far better to describe it as a bilateral cooperation for mutual interests. We owe our existence in Cyprus to those good bilateral realtions with Turkey. I feel forced to underline that we owe our existence in Cyprus not to Turkey but the good bilateral relations and cooperation with Turkey.

There has been many occasions some of our leaders and political parties opposed some of the leaders and political parties of Turkey on some issues. Who was right, who was wrong is discussible and depends on ideological differences but everytime such oppositions happened between them and us, it had been seen and understood that none of the Turkish leaders or political parties act against the will of vast majority of TCs.

A side note; Istrongly believe that(and there's an academic study) the gradual arrival of settlers and their settlement into North is in perfect correlation with the circumstances of Northern Cyprus.

Has the administration of Northern Cyprus been a recognized entity, 10 thousands of TCs wouldn't emigrate and even 10 thousands of TCs who emigrated since the begining of the Brit rule would most probably return to Cyprus.

In the begining of the British rule, TCs constituted 1/3 of population and has the administration of Northern Cyprus been an internationally recognized entity the Ottoman descendent TCs would have constituted 1/3 of the population of present day Northern Cyprus.

GCs backed by Greece and diaspora Greeks presumes that we would surrender their "majority rule" or "osmosis" policy under economic isolations. They r totally mistaken and by insisting on their decades lasted negative political stance towards TCs, they fed the anger, revenge feelings and seperatist feelings to a much greater extend. They still continue with same mentality which I'm sure will end up with totally 2 seperate states.

I agree that the T/C population has been shrinking and the policies of the Greek Cypriot controlled RoC have not helped. Yes, there are people like Oracle who believe the majority can rule... and tyranise. This is unacceptable to me.

However, don't fall into the hole of becoming a sycophant (yalaka) to Turkey like most of our community - its very sad to watch.

Turkish Cypriot relations with Turkey are not bilateral. Bilateral means between two states in other words equality. TRNC is not a state, it is a political entity or subordinate authority of Turkey. Even Turkey only partially recognises the TRNC; the rest of the planet would not touch it with a long barge pole.
Turkey funds this state entirely. 1/3 of TRNC civil servants are bankrolled by Ankara. Every year after the 8th month, the TRNc President flies to Ankara for more money and it is given to them with more conditions.

So TRNC is not a T/C state as you seem to suggest. Its an occupied zone, a colony of Turkey, at best a cohabitation of Ankara officials and those few Turkish Cypriots willing to reduce themselves to become Ankara's servant.

If you think Talat, Soyer or Eroglu or Avci or Cakici will ever represent T/C interests then you are naive. Turkey exercises such enormous power in this entity through its military and government that it dilutes T/C right to represent themselves. The fact that the TRNC President is driven to meet the Turkish Ambassador (and not the other way round) shows you who is in power there. Some T/C parties are boycotting elections for this reason.

The settlers were moved to disenfranchise T/Cs so that Denktash bey would win. T/Cs have a tendency (about 50% of them) to vote left-wing parties which are traditionally close to AKEL. Now, the settlers may be settled but the purpose of their illegal arrival and the plans behind it were far from honourable and not in the interest of T/Cs.

So once again, don't fall into that hole because a few Oracles upset you. Not all G/Cs think like this. Many criticise their own leadership for its policies towards T/Cs. Don't generalise.

Whether or not Turkish officials may have interests aligned with T/Cs is pure chance. The fact is that the TRNC is a state of servitude to Turkey. If you care about your community and its right to govern itself and have political equality you would never accept a situation where we are reduced to servants of another country - whatever country that may be including Turkey.

[Omer Seyhan]

It is a natural occurence in our community that if somebody was ever hurt by a G/C then their reaction is to generalise and become a far -right nationalist ready to join pan-Turkist aims to set up a Turkic super-state from Siberia to the Balkans.

Or

If you were ever hurt by a nationalist from your own community to swing as far left as possible until you are a Marxist rebel singing along to Ciao Bella Ciao with Hugo Chavez.

There is a middle road...

[Oracle]

[I agree that the T/C population has been shrinking and the policies of the Greek Cypriot controlled RoC have not helped. Yes, there are people like Oracle who believe the majority can rule... and tyranise. This is unacceptable to me.

Why do you associate majority rule with tyranny?

Historically it is splinter, minority groups which have tyrannised traditional norms ... So far it is the TCs who are behaving like tyrants illegally living on lands ethnically cleansed of the rightful owners.

Go figure

[Omer Seyhan]

[I agree that the T/C population has been shrinking and the policies of the Greek Cypriot controlled RoC have not helped. Yes, there are people like Oracle who believe the majority can rule... and tyranise. This is unacceptable to me.

Why do you associate majority rule with tyranny?

Historically it is splinter, minority groups which have tyrannised traditional norms ... So far it is the TCs who are behaving like tyrants illegally living on lands ethnically cleansed of the rightful owners.

Go figure

Because thats what always happens when people explicitly ask for majority rule. Particularly when it is uttered by those who dream of Hellenism, who deny that Cyprus has any Turkish input and who only care about their own community and not of Cyprus as a whole.

I don't believe you really think the way you do Oracle, I think you think this forum is a bit of a laugh to you, but the damage you are doing to Cyprus by arguing your Hellenism, by pushing away T/Cs like Insan to opposite extremist thinking by rejecting him and offering him no place in your Cyprus is enormous and will take decades to fix, if it can be fixed at all.

[YFred]

[I agree that the T/C population has been shrinking and the policies of the Greek Cypriot controlled RoC have not helped. Yes, there are people like Oracle who believe the majority can rule... and tyranise. This is unacceptable to me.

Why do you associate majority rule with tyranny?

Historically it is splinter, minority groups which have tyrannised traditional norms ... So far it is the TCs who are behaving like tyrants illegally living on lands ethnically cleansed of the rightful owners.

Go figure

Because thats what always happens when people explicitly ask for majority rule. Particularly when it is uttered by those who dream of Hellenism, who deny that Cyprus has any Turkish input and who only care about their own community and not of Cyprus as a whole.

I don't believe you really think the way you do Oracle, I think you think this forum is a bit of a laugh to you, but the damage you are doing to Cyprus by arguing your Hellenism, by pushing away T/Cs like Insan to opposite extremist thinking by rejecting him and offering him no place in your Cyprus is enormous and will take decades to fix, if it can be fixed at all.

Omer, Oracle cannot do any damage because everyone knows she is the resident racist and is ignored. Although some members respond to her out of courtesy just to be civil.

[DT.]

[I agree that the T/C population has been shrinking and the policies of the Greek Cypriot controlled RoC have not helped. Yes, there are people like Oracle who believe the majority can rule... and tyranise. This is unacceptable to me.

Why do you associate majority rule with tyranny?

Historically it is splinter, minority groups which have tyrannised traditional norms ... So far it is the TCs who are behaving like tyrants illegally living on lands ethnically cleansed of the rightful owners.

Go figure

Because thats what always happens when people explicitly ask for majority rule. Particularly when it is uttered by those who dream of Hellenism, who deny that Cyprus has any Turkish input and who only care about their own community and not of Cyprus as a whole.

I don't believe you really think the way you do Oracle, I think you think this forum is a bit of a laugh to you, but the damage you are doing to Cyprus by arguing your Hellenism, by pushing away T/Cs like Insan to opposite extremist thinking by rejecting him and offering him no place in your Cyprus is enormous and will take decades to fix, if it can be fixed at all.

Omer, Oracle cannot do any damage because everyone knows she is the resident racist and is ignored. Although some members respond to her out of courtesy just to be civil.

Insan came in this forum with a mehmethcik helmet screaming "death to the gavurs". If he got pushed further then we'd have to tie him up like Hannibal with a jaw cage.

[Omer Seyhan]

[I agree that the T/C population has been shrinking and the policies of the Greek Cypriot controlled RoC have not helped. Yes, there are people like Oracle who believe the majority can rule... and tyranise. This is unacceptable to me.

Why do you associate majority rule with tyranny?

Historically it is splinter, minority groups which have tyrannised traditional norms ... So far it is the TCs who are behaving like tyrants illegally living on lands ethnically cleansed of the rightful owners.

Go figure

Because thats what always happens when people explicitly ask for majority rule. Particularly when it is uttered by those who dream of Hellenism, who deny that Cyprus has any Turkish input and who only care about their own community and not of Cyprus as a whole.

I don't believe you really think the way you do Oracle, I think you think this forum is a bit of a laugh to you, but the damage you are doing to Cyprus by arguing your Hellenism, by pushing away T/Cs like Insan to opposite extremist thinking by rejecting him and offering him no place in your Cyprus is enormous and will take decades to fix, if it can be fixed at all.

Omer, Oracle cannot do any damage because everyone knows she is the resident racist and is ignored. Although some members respond to her out of courtesy just to be civil.

Insan came in this forum with a mehmethcik helmet screaming "death to the gavurs". If he got pushed further then we'd have to tie him up like Hannibal with a jaw cage.

Thank you both for informing on the dynamics of the forum... I didn't know.

[insan]

Omer,

I narrated my observations in correlation of environmental elements and other events. Everything in Northern Cyprus developed according to the needs of TC community in Northen Cyprus.

Facts:

1- In the begining of British rule the population of TC community constituted 1/3 of total population. This means no less than 1/3 of the land of Cyprus belongs to TCs. The ruling class of TCs were against Enosis and GC rule. While GC were demanding cession of Cyprus to Greece, TCs were demanding cession of Cyprus back to Turkey.(Omer, did TCs demand cession of Cyprus to Turkey because they were servants of Turkey or to show loyalty towards Turkey?)

2- Afterwards EOKA began armed struggle,aiming annex Cyprus to Greece; naturally TCs took side with Brits to prevent Enosis and if Enosis would be accepted, it should be a double Enosis.(Omer, anything wrong with what TCs did? Or they again served the interests of Turkey? What should TCs do under the then circumstances, not to serve the interests of Turkey?)

3- GC ruling class didn't genuinely accept the 60s agreements and treaties because those agreements and treaties were completely opposite of their centuries lasted desires and aspirations; namely Enosis or majority rule. TCs were not that stupid not to sense GC uneasiness with the agreements and treaties. While GC ruling class was preparing the sneaky Akritas Plan to achieve their half-finished job; TCs were also preparing to achieve their half-finished job?(Omer, what's wrong with TCs counter-plan under the then circumstances? Or they were just serving the interests of Turkey?)

4- After many years of inter-communal strife, clashes and blood shed between GCs and TCs, in 1967 with mediation of US between the concerned parties, inter-communal talks initiated between TCs and GCs. Oddly enough, this positive development began when Junta came into power in Greece. During 1967-74 period, GC community manifestly divided into 2 political camps. Left- wing allied Makarios was against Enosis because under the then circumstances it was against the interests of Makarios and left wing GCs to serve the interests of fascist Greek Junta. GC right wing had no problem with fascist Junta because they were led by GC national front that was instructed by Greek Junta.

During 1967-74 period Makarios backed by leftists was again insisting on majority rule and abolishment of treaty of guarantee. After the 4 years lasted inter-communal fights that costed many TC lives, destruction of TC property, economical and educational losses; TC life suspended for 7 years in fear of an unknown future. The clashes between GC leftwing and far-right was another ominous development for TCs. The so-called Makarios security forces could not stop the illegal activities of Junta backed Greek officers in so-called RoC. Substantial part of the so-called, illegal NG(GC National Guard) was under command of Greek officers.

In July 1974, an idiot, fascist, anti-Turk Sampson; backed by another idiot, fascist, anti-Turk Ionnides get into power with a coup. It wasn't a CIA inspired coup. It was totally the self-decision of those 2 idiots based on the presumptions of their mentors. U know they everytime presume the weaknesses of Turkey they attempt to advance towards their goal. Plz read the statements of Ionnides regarding coup from the below link:
http://history.state.gov/historicaldocu ... -76v30/d88

5 - Under the circumstances of the coup, Turkey waited 5 long days for a bilateral intervention together with Britain. Britain was worrying abt the life security of 25.000 Brits living in Cyprus besides taking into consideration the possible consequences of a Brit-Turk VS Greco war and a possible USSR intervention; was not so willing to take a bilateral action against coupists. Moreover, Brits having the bitter experiences of EOKA guerilla warfare, they were aware that a guerilla warfare towards EOKA-B would cause more blood shed and last many years. So that Turkey left alone to intervene in order to restore the constitutional order.

From the first minute of the Turkish intervention, the forces of Turkey faced an unexpected resitence by Hellenic forces and gave substantial losses. After 2 successive military operations the irregulars of EOKA-B guerillas was still active and threatening both the newly installed president of GCs and Turkey with guerilla warfare. Turkish intervention forces were also well aware of the difficulties of waging a guerilla warfare against EOKA-B. Therefore; Turkey, instead of launching a third phase of intervention in order to overpower those EOKA-B guerillas and causing more blood shed, offered exchange of populations into 2 zones for the security of the lives of Cypriots. Abt 11 thousands of TCs who couldn't flee to North during the combat of 1974, were brought to North in early 1975. Omer, plz read the full details of the developments of 1973-1976 form the below CIA report.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/96606.pdf

A side note for u: EOKA-B was still active up until 1976 when Makarios granted an amnesty for all of them.

6- U talk abt a few Oracles whom u assume that upset us TCs and we turn to be Pan-Turkists. It's irrelevant my friend. What's difference of few Oracles from democratically elected Makarios, TPap, Kyprianou? Oracles r created by the education and propaganda system of Hellenes. The fact is that, there's a few GCs give us TCs the hope of a just reunification. In this forum there's only one GC, Bananiot has almost all qualifications we TCs r happy with. It is a fact that Bananiots r a tiny minority among Hellenes. If Bananiots were at least majority the Cyprus problem would have been solved.