Cyprus-Forum.com

[Omer Seyhan]

Sorry Omer, but I cannot agree with anything you say above. We GCs do not recognize anybody else’s rights in or with Cyprus, nor do we accept that their signature should be required in any agreement that determines the future of our country, and this is the biggest difference between us and the TCs.

You can't speak for all G/Cs and I can't speak for all T/Cs. Speak for yourself. Thank God the G/C Leadership doesn't think like you or we would not even have a peace process.

We regard ourselves as citizens of a sovereign and independed country, which is recognized as such and is a member of the UN and the EU. If the case wasn't such, we wouldn't have been accepted as a member of any of the above entities. If any past agreements contradict this reality, such as the 1960 “treaty of guarantee,” etc, then they are invalid by default, by virtue of the UN Charter which we recognize as the highest agreement in international relations and law.

What do you understand by independence?

The Westphalian Nation State model is dead Kifeas. Cyprus is part of a globalised economy, it has to deal with issues like security transnationally like all other countries that play the world order game and because we are an EU member state and part of the Eurozone, we also have to decide many issues in Brussels or in coordination with Brussels. It is not childs play Kifeas, Cyprus is part of the West and always has to weigh up its national interests with those of its partners in order to secure a good deal for Cyprus, and all Cypriots.

You talk about the UN Charter and International law as if there is a World Govt and World Court, there is not. And even those courts like the International Court in the Hague are powerless as long as states only voluntarily use them and are not bind by them. The G/C leadership has been trying to put pressure on Turkey to conform to Int law for 34 years without success.

Why? Because you miss three points. 1. you forget the UN Charter and International Law and institutions were invented by the most powerful country on earth - The United States - our fifth unofficial guarantor power which will have to endorse a Cyprus solution. 2. Turkey is a regional power. 3. the US and Turkey, and Greece and Turkey get on very well.

Now, considering the important role of external factors and the need to get a solution signed by 5 signatures, why do you think Markos Kyprianou and Talat bother to travel all the way to Washington? To enjoy Burgers and fries?

What are Turkey's "legitimate" interests in Cyprus? We do not recognize that Turkey or anybody else has any such rights regarding the future of our country. Many times we invited Turkey to the ICJ, to have her defend such claims, and it refused to follow course. If you (TCs) mean and want business with the GCs, you should also recognize this reality, namely that Cyprus is and should remain an independed country and that no one can claim interests or rights with our future as citizens of this country, alternatively we do not see how we will possibly ever reach an agreement between us. Turkey is a country that cannot guarantee its own citizens’ safety, human and democratic rights, it lacks democratic and political culture and needs others to guarantee her; how on earth you TCs want her to have a role in Cyprus's future and expect us to accept her as our guarantor, is beyond our brain capacity to understand and digest –set aside accept.

Turkey is a guarantor and an actor in the Cyprus issue, is it not? As external actors, of course it has legitimate interests as do Greece, the UK... Your brain capacity should be able to cope with that...

As I said above my dear Kifeas, countries are not bind to appear at the ICJ. It is purely voluntary.

And as I said before many times, all this has nothing to do with T/Cs. They are hardly actors in this game, their communal interests only partially represented if they happen to be aligned with those of Ankara.

[Kifeas]

Sorry Omer, but I cannot agree with anything you say above. We GCs do not recognize anybody else’s rights in or with Cyprus, nor do we accept that their signature should be required in any agreement that determines the future of our country, and this is the biggest difference between us and the TCs.

You can't speak for all G/Cs and I can't speak for all T/Cs. Speak for yourself. Thank God the G/C Leadership doesn't think like you or we would not even have a peace process.

You are mistaken Omer. The above statement is fully shared by president Christofias and any other GC leader or party, as well as the overwhelming majority of the GCs. On this, we have the full backing of international legality and the UN Charter. I suggest you check it out!

We regard ourselves as citizens of a sovereign and independed country, which is recognized as such and is a member of the UN and the EU. If the case wasn't such, we wouldn't have been accepted as a member of any of the above entities. If any past agreements contradict this reality, such as the 1960 “treaty of guarantee,” etc, then they are invalid by default, by virtue of the UN Charter which we recognize as the highest agreement in international relations and law.

What do you understand by independence?

The Westphalian Nation State model is dead Kifeas. Cyprus is part of a globalised economy, it has to deal with issues like security transnationally like all other countries that play the world order game and because we are an EU member state and part of the Eurozone, we also have to decide many issues in Brussels or in coordination with Brussels. It is not childs play Kifeas, Cyprus is part of the West and always has to weigh up its national interests with those of its partners in order to secure a good deal for Cyprus, and all Cypriots.

Omer, what you are saying here, about globalised economy, the west, etc, has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. It is irrelevant! Of course there are interests and political machinations across the globe and among nations. However, what your official side and Turkey are asking is to allow Turkey and other foreign governments to have an INSTITUTIONALISED role and saying in Cyprus's internal and foreign affairs, and to also maintain intervention “rights,” etc. This is something that simply cannot be accepted by the GC community, which also makes the 80% of the indigenous and lawful Cypriot people.

You talk about the UN Charter and International law as if there is a World Govt and World Court, there is not. And even those courts like the International Court in the Hague are powerless as long as states only voluntarily use them and are not bind by them. Most importantly, you forget the UN Charter and International Law and institutions were invented by the most powerful country on earth - The United States - our fifth unofficial guarantor power which will have to endorse a Cyprus solution.

Well, after the above nonsense, which reveales your complete disrespect of international legally and the peoples' and nations’ rights; and which directs to an aspiration and worshipping of the "jungle law," where the big and the powerful dictate their will to the smaller ones (big and small fish theory, or the "law of might" according to Bananiot,) I suppose there isn't much we two can further talk about!

Why do you think Markos Kyprianou and Talat bother to travel all the way to Washington? To enjoy the weather or Burger and fries?

Irrelevant, Omer, irrelevant!

What are Turkey's "legitimate" interests in Cyprus? We do not recognize that Turkey or anybody else has any such rights regarding the future of our country. Many times we invited Turkey to the ICJ, to have her defend such claims, and it refused to follow course. If you (TCs) mean and want business with the GCs, you should also recognize this reality, namely that Cyprus is and should remain an independed country and that no one can claim interests or rights with our future as citizens of this country, alternatively we do not see how we will possibly ever reach an agreement between us. Turkey is a country that cannot guarantee its own citizens’ safety, human and democratic rights, it lacks democratic and political culture and needs others to guarantee her; how on earth you TCs want her to have a role in Cyprus's future and expect us to accept her as our guarantor, is beyond our brain capacity to understand and digest –set aside accept.

Turkey is a guarantor and an actor in the Cyprus issue, is it not? As external actors, of course it has legitimate interests as do Greece, the UK... Your brain capacity should be able to cope with that...

Really!!! And what are these Turkey's (or Greece's for this matter) "legitimate" interests in Cyprus? To grab and control its airspace? It's continental shelf? It's right to conduct its international relations freely? Well, Omer, according to the provisions of the UN Charter, such a role or right does not exist for Turkey, nor for anybody else. It is invalidated and nullified by the UN Charter, which is a higher agreement than any other international treaty (article 103.) Turkey is only an illegal occupier of 36% of Cyprus, and an ethnic cleanser, usurper and a violator of that area’s indigenous peoples’ human rights. (ECtHR decision in the Cyprus vs. Turkey case of 2001.)

As I said above my dear Kifeas, countries are not bind to appear at the ICJ. It is purely voluntary.

International law respecting and abiding countries do so unquestionably. You are basically indirectly admitting that Turkey isn't one, at the same time that you also recognize to such a country the right to have a role and a saying in another foreign country's affairs. And then you wonder why GCs would never accept an outlaw and a lawless country, such as Turkey, to be the "guarantor" of their country in whatever form and fashion. And why is Turkey refusing to proceed to the ICJ? Is it because it feels it has no real case in whatever “arguments” and excuses it will provide, and consequently will lose the arbitration of the court? You better believe so!

And as I said before many times, all this has nothing to do with T/Cs, so why are you blaming T/Cs and asking them if they want a solution with 'us'? Who is 'us'? Are we not all Cypriots?

It has to do with you, TCs, because you (your leaderships) chose to hide behind Turkey and play her games in Cyprus, offering her an alibi and delaying and eradicating in this way the prospects for a peaceful solution of the problem.

[The Cypriot]

QUESTION FIRST POSED ON 17 April 2009
As Embargoed is a human rights group, then why has it never published a single press release on Commemorating the Assassination of Greek and Turkish Cypriot intellectuals, writers, journalists, trade unionists and lawyers by paramilitaries in Cyprus? Why have they never condemned the bomb attack on Afrika newspaper in northern Cyprus but are quick to accuse G/Cs of racism? Why have they never called for an investigation into the assassination of Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali and others? Or condemn the threats against writers, poets and artists by paramilitaries?

Will the embargo be lifted or will we have to wait 45 years for an answer?

I will continue to re-post this question, regularly, for insan or any other Embargoed! fan (if you'd dare admit it) to get back to the Cyprus Forum with an answer.

[insan]

QUESTION FIRST POSED ON 17 April 2009
As Embargoed is a human rights group, then why has it never published a single press release on Commemorating the Assassination of Greek and Turkish Cypriot intellectuals, writers, journalists, trade unionists and lawyers by paramilitaries in Cyprus? Why have they never condemned the bomb attack on Afrika newspaper in northern Cyprus but are quick to accuse G/Cs of racism? Why have they never called for an investigation into the assassination of Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali and others? Or condemn the threats against writers, poets and artists by paramilitaries?

Will the embargo be lifted or will we have to wait 45 years for an answer?

I will continue to re-post this question, regularly, for insan or any other Embargoed! fan (if you'd dare admit it) to get back to the Cyprus Forum with an answer.

The Cyprus problem is too complicated, The Cypriot. Everything is not as how it was officially told, documented or known.

Everything regarding Cyprus revolved and revolves around the interests of Western alliance; like it or not. If u have the ability, impartially read between the lines of the "sanitized" CIA reprorts regarding US-Greece-Turkey-Cyprus relations; u can get lots of clues on what was really going on and what's really going on. The main concern is keeping the NATO alliance stable and in cooperation to achieve the ultimate goal: One World Government.

[Omer Seyhan]

You are mistaken Omer. The above statement is fully shared by president Christofias and any other GC leader or party, as well as the overwhelming majority of the GCs. On this, we have the full backing of international legality and the UN Charter. I suggest you check it out!

You believe everything politicians tell you, do you? ever heard of PR?

Omer, what you are saying here, about globalised economy, the west, etc, has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. It is irrelevant! Of course there are interests and political machinations across the globe and among nations. However, what your official side and Turkey are asking is to allow Turkey and other foreign governments to have an INSTITUTIONALISED role and saying in Cyprus's internal and foreign affairs, and to also maintain intervention “rights,” etc. This is something that simply cannot be accepted by the GC community, which also makes the 80% of the indigenous and lawful Cypriot people.

No, no I did not mean Turkey should have an institutional role in Cyprus. Of course, we as Cypriots are against this. What I mean is that Turkey, Greece, Britain etc all have regional interests on the island. What these interests are is not always well-known; sometimes it is classified information relating to security and defence or listening posts.

The Uk and US have security interests in Cyprus because of its proximity to the Middle East and the oil route. Their priorities are not us but their own people. Look at this from their perspective.

Greece has a security interest because Cyprus geographically lies at an area where it can provide a good line of defence for Greece. Its priority are the 10 million Greeks not the G/Cs and certainly not the T/Cs. Look at this from the perspective of a Greek militaryman.

Turkey has security interests as Cyprus lies under its belly and Ankara CANNOT tolerate a belligerent and potentially problematic regime so close to its territory. Its priority is its own 72 million people. Try to look at it from a Turkish perspective.

There is nothing underhand or illegal about it Kifeas, countries do have interest in other parts of the world outside their territory and sovereignty, the US, China and Russia has interests in many parts of the world.

Now, you can argue whether these are 'legitimate' or not but it really makes no difference because each actor clearly has interests that it will do everything to protect, including the preservation of division. Now if you want a solution, then you have to wake up and realise that its not a Cyprus solution that we want but a regional solution because as you know we need 5 signatures for an agreement.

Well, after the above nonsense, which reveales your complete disrespect of international legally and the peoples' and nations’ rights; and which directs to an aspiration and worshipping of the "jungle law," where the big and the powerful dictate their will to the smaller ones (big and small fish theory, or the "law of might" according to Bananiot,) I suppose there isn't much we two can further talk about!

I do not worship Jungle law at all. I believe in justice and I want to see more countries act according to Int law. International law is important Kifeas and the UN Charter too, I do not disregard them.
However, they are not the beginning and end of International Relations. Did the US need Int Law and UN Charter to go to war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam or to bomb Serbia? Did Russia ask the UN before it waged a war in South Ossetia / Abkhazia / Chechnya? Did Int Law stop Darfur? Dd it stop Israel ever from doing what it wanted to do?

Really!!! And what are these Turkey's (or Greece's for this matter) "legitimate" interests in Cyprus? To grab and control its airspace? It's continental shelf? It's right to conduct its international relations freely? Well, Omer, according to the provisions of the UN Charter, such a role or right does not exist for Turkey, nor for anybody else. It is invalidated and nullified by the UN Charter, which is a higher agreement than any other international treaty (article 103.) Turkey is only an illegal occupier of 36% of Cyprus, and an ethnic cleanser, usurper and a violator of that area’s indigenous peoples’ human rights. (ECtHR decision in the Cyprus vs. Turkey case of 2001.)

In my opinion it is to ensure security for their own countries and their own citizens. It doesn't matter what the UN Charter says, I'm sorry to say, it hasn't stopped Turkey, Greece in the past and it will not stop them today from interfering if they feel their interests are not being met. This is why its important to normalise relations with Turkey so that the Cypriots can get a better deal for our island.
Cyprus is now an EU member state; this gives the Cypriots greater leverage over Turkey. It was an excellent move by Vassiliou/Clerides but even there there are limitations to what Cyprus can achieve. It relies on there being a pro-EU Turkish govt (with a weakened military) and continued support for Turkish EU accession and a Cyprus solution together by the UK and the US to give it some weight.

International law respecting and abiding countries do so unquestionably. You are basically indirectly admitting that Turkey isn't one, at the same time that you also recognize to such a country the right to have a role and a saying in another foreign country's affairs. And then you wonder why GCs would never accept an outlaw and a lawless country, such as Turkey, to be the "guarantor" of their country in whatever form and fashion. And why is Turkey refusing to proceed to the ICJ? Is it because it feels it has no real case in whatever “arguments” and excuses it will provide, and consequently will lose the arbitration of the court? You better believe so!

The US does not abide by ICJ. They refuse to be part of it. The ICJ has no power to impose verdicts on countries.

However, if Turkey was an EU member state, it would be bound and anchored into the same laws that govern the Cypriots. It is therefore in our national interests as Cyprus to support Turkish EU accession and a solution .

[The Cypriot]

Everything regarding Cyprus revolved and revolves around the interests of Western alliance; like it or not. If u have the ability, impartially read between the lines of the "sanitized" CIA reprorts regarding US-Greece-Turkey-Cyprus relations; u can get lots of clues on what was really going on and what's really going on. The main concern is keeping the NATO alliance stable and in cooperation to achieve the ultimate goal: One World Government.

You may well be right, insan... but what's this got to do with Embargoed!? Are they funded by the CIA?

[Omer Seyhan]

It has to do with you, TCs, because you (your leaderships) chose to hide behind Turkey and play her games in Cyprus, offering her an alibi and delaying and eradicating in this way the prospects for a peaceful solution of the problem.

Kifeas, what do you want them to do? go to war?

You know nothing about what it feels like to live under a military occupation. People try to survive and do everything imaginable and unimaginable out of fear. When you live under occupation you don't have clear-cut choices.

[insan]

Everything regarding Cyprus revolved and revolves around the interests of Western alliance; like it or not. If u have the ability, impartially read between the lines of the "sanitized" CIA reprorts regarding US-Greece-Turkey-Cyprus relations; u can get lots of clues on what was really going on and what's really going on. The main concern is keeping the NATO alliance stable and in cooperation to achieve the ultimate goal: One World Government.

You may well be right, insan... but what's this got to do with Embargoed!? Are they funded by the CIA?

The Cypriot, overwhelming majority of TCs believe that under the defacto circumstances embargoes r unjust and too detrimental for TCs in every means; sociologically, psychologically, educational etc. Embargoes affects every aspect of our lives and in no way helps for unity of TCs or getting united with GCs.

Do u think, has there been no embargoes we wouldn't have any will to find a solution to Cyprus problem? If your answer is yes, then that's the reason of the intarsigent of GC leadership but I'm not agree with this.

Do u remeber what one of the GC leader told once upon a time? He said: "We are prepared to eat stones, just let us unite with Greece; no matter how poor is Greece."

The TCs who prefered or had to stay in Cyprus have almost a similar mentality:"political equality, guarantorship of Turkey, return of limited number of refugees as long as bi-zonality not affected against TCs; or 2 seperate states." This what the overwhelming majority of TCs demand for any cost.

[The Cypriot]

The Cypriot, overwhelming majority of TCs believe that under the defacto circumstances embargoes r unjust and too detrimental for TCs in every means; sociologically, psychologically, educational etc. Embargoes affects every aspect of our lives and in no way helps for unity of TCs or getting united with GCs.

TC journalists, writers etc being attacked and killed for expressing their opinions is unjust and detrimental too, yes? Then why doesn't a TC "human rights" organisation like Embargoed! condemn this too? Writers not being able to express themselves freely are ALSO embargoed.

Do u think, has there been no embargoes we wouldn't have any will to find a solution to Cyprus problem? If your answer is yes, then that's the reason of the intarsigent of GC leadership but I'm not agree with this.

This is not relevant to the point I am trying to make about this UK Turkish Cypriot so-called "human rights group".

Do u remeber what one of the GC leader told once upon a time? He said: "We are prepared to eat stones, just let us unite with Greece; no matter how poor is Greece."

And Jesus said, "love your enemies". And that was an even longer time ago.

The TCs who prefered or had to stay in Cyprus have almost a similar mentality:"political equality, guarantorship of Turkey, return of limited number of refugees as long as bi-zonality not affected against TCs; or 2 seperate states." This what the overwhelming majority of TCs demand for any cost.

I expect the overwhelming majority of TCs don't like the idea of writers and journalists being attacked and killed by paramilitaries. Why isn't Embargoed! standing up for them too?

[insan]

The Cypriot, overwhelming majority of TCs believe that under the defacto circumstances embargoes r unjust and too detrimental for TCs in every means; sociologically, psychologically, educational etc. Embargoes affects every aspect of our lives and in no way helps for unity of TCs or getting united with GCs.

TC journalists, writers etc being attacked and killed for expressing their opinions is also unjust and detrimental too, yes? Then why doesn't a TC "human rights" organisation like Embargoed! condemn this too? Writers not being able to express themselves freely are ALSO embargoed.

Do u think, has there been no embargoes we wouldn't have any will to find a solution to Cyprus problem? If your answer is yes, then that's the reason of the intarsigent of GC leadership but I'm not agree with this.

This is not relevant to the point I am trying to make about this UK Turkish Cypriot so-called "human rights group".

Do u remeber what one of the GC leader told once upon a time? He said: "We are prepared to eat stones, just let us unite with Greece; no matter how poor is Greece."

And Jesus said, "love your enemies". And that was an even longer time ago.

The TCs who prefered or had to stay in Cyprus have almost a similar mentality:"political equality, guarantorship of Turkey, return of limited number of refugees as long as bi-zonality not affected against TCs; or 2 seperate states." This what the overwhelming majority of TCs demand for any cost.

I expect the overwhelming majority of TCs don't like the idea of writers and journalists being attacked and killed by paramilitaries. Why isn't Embargoed! standing up for them too?

The Cypriot, I have no idea why don't "Embargoed group" stand up for them too but I'd like them to condemn such actions, too.

How overwhelming majority of GCs consider some GCs who express their opinions against the generally accepted and known thesis of GCs as "Traitor"; similar attitude exist in TC community, too. The only difference, no one was killed but those who expressed their opinions against the generally accepted GC cause bombed and harrased in South, in the last 30 years; as far as I know.

How did those killers and their backers organize and commit those crimes. It is totally related with "our" educational level, sociologic order, psychologic mood that r in a chaotic situation because of many reasons. The first one is we don't have "high quality" leaders and politicians, we don't have required number of "high quality" civil initives, we don't have sufficient "high quality" brain power. How we could have them without a strong economy that would provide the required conditions for us to positively develop ourselves? Have u ever imagine how would be the situation in South if u have been under same circumstances?

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Only TC far right approve and get involved in such assassinations.
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No matter how long ago something was said. I gave that example to u just to make u better understand the mentality and where it leads the people.

Once the argument of GCs was "self-determination right" to reach their ultimate goal(Either Enosis or Greek controlled Cyprus); currently in EU, the GC arguement is "human rights and democracy" but the national cause is same again. (Greek controlled Cyprus and a stronger Hellenic nation against Turkish "agression" in Aegean and Mediterennean.)