Cyprus-Forum.com

[Omer Seyhan]

Kifeas, you want to evaluate the G/C positions but how do I know what those positions really are? Ok, Christofias said A or B. But forget what is disseminated by the press or Govt spokesperson, the real positions of both leaders is still very much classified information as the talks are ongoing and because releasing info could damage the talks So I do not really know what the two leaders are really discussing? Everybody is keeping quiet about the details of the talks. Therefore I cannot really comment at this stage. Sorry.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, you want to evaluate the G/C positions but how do I know what those positions really are? Ok, Christofias said A or B. But forget what is disseminated by the press or Govt spokesperson, the real positions of both leaders is still very much classified information as the talks are ongoing and because releasing info could damage the talks So I do not really know what the two leaders are really discussing? Everybody is keeping quiet about the details of the talks. Therefore I cannot really comment at this stage. Sorry.

Omer, the positions of the GC side are very well known, as well as those of the TC side, laid out by Talat and his technical teams. If you are not sure which ones they are, how can you be so confident that we are close to a solution? They are published in the media, for sure at least in the GC ones; nevertheless, if you are not sure, you may ask me and will say them to you (of both sides,) on each subject.

In a nutshell, the GC side proceeded with already compromised positions, unfavorably balanced for the GC side and on the borderline of its own red lines; yet, not only we are not near to an agreement, but the TC /Turkish side came up with even worst claims than those already rejected by GCs in the A-plan, in almost every subject. If you want examples, I will be very happy to provide you with some.

[YFred]

Kifeas, you want to evaluate the G/C positions but how do I know what those positions really are? Ok, Christofias said A or B. But forget what is disseminated by the press or Govt spokesperson, the real positions of both leaders is still very much classified information as the talks are ongoing and because releasing info could damage the talks So I do not really know what the two leaders are really discussing? Everybody is keeping quiet about the details of the talks. Therefore I cannot really comment at this stage. Sorry.

Omer, the positions of the GC side are very well known, as well as those of the TC side, laid out by Talat and his technical teams. If you are not sure which ones they are, how can you be so confident that we are close to a solution? They are published in the media, for sure at least in the GC ones; nevertheless, if you are not sure, you may ask me and will say them to you (of both sides,) on each subject.

In a nutshell, the GC side proceeded with already compromised positions, unfavorably balanced for the GC side and on the borderline of its own red lines; yet, not only we are not near to an agreement, but the TC /Turkish side came up with even worst claims than those already rejected by GCs in the A-plan, in almost every subject. If you want examples, I will be very happy to provide you with some.

If you can give us the proposals of each one and the difficulties, it would be appreciated.

[Omer Seyhan]

Kifeas, you want to evaluate the G/C positions but how do I know what those positions really are? Ok, Christofias said A or B. But forget what is disseminated by the press or Govt spokesperson, the real positions of both leaders is still very much classified information as the talks are ongoing and because releasing info could damage the talks So I do not really know what the two leaders are really discussing? Everybody is keeping quiet about the details of the talks. Therefore I cannot really comment at this stage. Sorry.

Omer, the positions of the GC side are very well known, as well as those of the TC side, laid out by Talat and his technical teams. If you are not sure which ones they are, how can you be so confident that we are close to a solution? They are published in the media, for sure at least in the GC ones; nevertheless, if you are not sure, you may ask me and will say them to you (of both sides,) on each subject.

In a nutshell, the GC side proceeded with already compromised positions, unfavorably balanced for the GC side and on the borderline of its own red lines; yet, not only we are not near to an agreement, but the TC /Turkish side came up with even worst claims than those already rejected by GCs in the A-plan, in almost every subject. If you want examples, I will be very happy to provide you with some.

Kifeas the most interesting demands are kept behind closed doors. They relate to classified information and it is not accessible to us.

I can only go by my vibes and what I know... The US, Turkey, UK, Greece and two Cypriot leaders all recently and publicly committed themselves to a Cyprus solution based on one sovereignty with two political equal constituent states. This is a huge step coming from Turkey and now the US!

The leaders will have disagreements from time to time but its normal, no peace process goes smoothly. The point is they are continuing a head and trying to find middle of the ground solutions to the areas they disagree on. this shows that they are pushing this forward.

What you should not forget my friend Kifeas is that disagreement is not necessarily one between the two communities, but because of difficulties both communities may face in their own efforts to get a YES vote. Both leaderships have to also balance or weigh up the interests of coalition partners and external actors. Its a complicated cocktail of actors.

The T/C leadership is influenced by Turkey who has its own interests and so has to be seen to emphasize a federation, because the electorate in northern Cyprus expect it. They have been brain-washed that nothing less than a two-state solution is acceptable. Similarly, the G/C electorate expect the emphasis to be on unity.

This can be resolved if we form a federal state with two politically equal constituent states but with a strong federal govt. That way you stress both federalism and unity.

So I wouldn't read into what the Govt spokesman for both leaderships say. PR is PR and will continue as long as Cyprus is divided. Before a referendum, both Cypriot communities need room to speak to their voters in their own language that they can understand and endorse.

But none of this stops us from celebrating our commonalities as Cypriots, our Cypriotness and nor does it stop us from thinking more like Cypriots than anything else. In fact it's positive effects could help the peace process....

[Kifeas]

I am sorry to disappoint you Omer, but there is nothing secret in what the two sides want or aim. Furthermore, the GC side is negotiating for its own sake, and whatever it is proposing is only because it believes is fair, logical and serves its own, as well as those of the TC community’s well intended interests. The GC side is not serving anybody else’s agendas, nor is any single one of its positions dictated by any force outside Cyprus. If this is not the case for the TC side, and part of whatever claims Talat places on the table is done so in order to serve Turkey’s or anybody else’s interests, then neither you should be proud as TCs, nor anyone from the TC community should direct the blame on the GC side for the inevitable failure of the negotiations. In such a case, Talat should be honest to come up and say to the UN and the EU what the truth is, i.e. that he is made obliged to put forward Turkey’s (likely illegitimate) interests in Cyprus, so that the world knows were to direct their efforts and pressure, and where to lay the blame.

[humanist]

seyhem

Kifeas the most interesting demands are kept behind closed doors. They relate to classified information and it is not accessible to us.

I can only go by my vibes and what I know... The US, Turkey, UK, Greece and two Cypriot leaders all recently and publicly committed themselves to a Cyprus solution based on one sovereignty with two political equal constituent states. This is a huge step coming from Turkey and now the US!

The leaders will have disagreements from time to time but its normal, no peace process goes smoothly. The point is they are continuing a head and trying to find middle of the ground solutions to the areas they disagree on. this shows that they are pushing this forward.

What you should not forget my friend Kifeas is that disagreement is not necessarily one between the two communities, but because of difficulties both communities may face in their own efforts to get a YES vote. Both leaderships have to also balance or weigh up the interests of coalition partners and external actors. Its a complicated cocktail of actors.

The T/C leadership is influenced by Turkey who has its own interests and so has to be seen to emphasize a federation, because the electorate in northern Cyprus expect it. They have been brain-washed that nothing less than a two-state solution is acceptable. Similarly, the G/C electorate expect the emphasis to be on unity.

This can be resolved if we form a federal state with two politically equal constituent states but with a strong federal govt. That way you stress both federalism and unity.

So I wouldn't read into what the Govt spokesman for both leaderships say. PR is PR and will continue as long as Cyprus is divided. Before a referendum, both Cypriot communities need room to speak to their voters in their own language that they can understand and endorse.

But none of this stops us from celebrating our commonalities as Cypriots, our Cypriotness and nor does it stop us from thinking more like Cypriots than anything else. In fact it's positive effects could help the peace process....

Fair post I like it

[Omer Seyhan]

I am sorry to disappoint you Omer, but there is nothing secret in what the two sides want or aim. Furthermore, the GC side is negotiating for its own sake, and whatever it is proposing is only because it believes is fair, logical and serves its own, as well as those of the TC community’s well intended interests. The GC side is not serving anybody else’s agendas, nor is any single one of its positions dictated by any force outside Cyprus. If this is not the case for the TC side, and part of whatever claims Talat places on the table is done so in order to serve Turkey’s or anybody else’s interests, then neither you should be proud as TCs, nor anyone from the TC community should direct the blame on the GC side for the inevitable failure of the negotiations. In such a case, Talat should be honest to come up and say to the UN and the EU what the truth is, i.e. that he is made obliged to put forward Turkey’s (likely illegitimate) interests in Cyprus, so that the world knows were to direct their efforts and pressure, and where to lay the blame.

Kifeas, gardash, who's blaming who? What's with the angry tone?

Of course, the community leaders are under influence from internal and external actors. It has always been so.. All countries are subject to outside influence or pressure from time to time, where the most powerful countries exercise more power. Al states have agreements with other countries they are obliged to honour or debts they have to service. All states have both conflicting and common interests, and very often they have to weigh these up before acting. This is International Relations.

The reality is a Cyprus solution requires 5 signatures. Each country or signature has legitimate interests including Turkey that transcend the two Cypriot communities; these have to be put on the table in private away from you and I and discussed until a consensus is reached. The 5 signatures are: The two Cypriot communities (Agreement between the Cypriots will not necessarily be a challenge as you may think), Greece, Turkey and the UK. There is also unofficial guarantor powers like the US who will have to endorse a solution in its own way.
There are issues with security that the greater powers want to address before printing their signatures.

After a solution, the new Cyprus Federal Govt will have normalised relations with Turkey and both countries will be bound by new agreements and treaties to get along. Their trade volume will increase beyond belief because of the practical proximity of both states (40 miles) and as a result both will have tremendous influence over each other. In other words, Nicosia and Ankara will be dealing with each other a lot on many issues.

I'm sorry Kifeas, you may not like Turks or Turkey, but don't be so emotional. Diplomacy has no emotions. The reality is the national interests of our country Cyprus relies on normalising relations with Ankara and anchoring Turkey into the EU, where it is bound by the same values and laws as our country. There are mutual benefits for us, for Turkey and for the other parties in this game.

[Kifeas]

I am sorry to disappoint you Omer, but there is nothing secret in what the two sides want or aim. Furthermore, the GC side is negotiating for its own sake, and whatever it is proposing is only because it believes is fair, logical and serves its own, as well as those of the TC community’s well intended interests. The GC side is not serving anybody else’s agendas, nor is any single one of its positions dictated by any force outside Cyprus. If this is not the case for the TC side, and part of whatever claims Talat places on the table is done so in order to serve Turkey’s or anybody else’s interests, then neither you should be proud as TCs, nor anyone from the TC community should direct the blame on the GC side for the inevitable failure of the negotiations. In such a case, Talat should be honest to come up and say to the UN and the EU what the truth is, i.e. that he is made obliged to put forward Turkey’s (likely illegitimate) interests in Cyprus, so that the world knows were to direct their efforts and pressure, and where to lay the blame.

Kifeas, gardash, who's blaming who? What's with the angry tone?

Of course, the community leaders are under influence from internal and external actors. It has always been so.. All countries are subject to outside influence or pressure from time to time, where the most powerful countries exercise more power. Al states have agreements with other countries they are obliged to honour or debts they have to service. All states have both conflicting and common interests, and very often they have to weigh these up before acting. This is International Relations.

The reality is a Cyprus solution requires 5 signatures. Each country or signature has legitimate interests including Turkey that transcend the two Cypriot communities; these have to be put on the table in private away from you and I and discussed until a consensus is reached. The 5 signatures are: The two Cypriot communities (Agreement between the Cypriots will not necessarily be a challenge as you may think), Greece, Turkey and the UK. There is also unofficial guarantor powers like the US who will have to endorse a solution in its own way.
There are issues with security that the greater powers want to address before printing their signatures.

After a solution, the new Cyprus Federal Govt will have normalised relations with Turkey and both countries will be bound by new agreements and treaties to get along. Their trade volume will increase beyond belief because of the practical proximity of both states (40 miles) and as a result both will have tremendous influence over each other. In other words, Nicosia and Ankara will be dealing with each other a lot on many issues.

I'm sorry Kifeas, you may not like Turks or Turkey, but don't be so emotional. Diplomacy has no emotions. The reality is the national interests of our country Cyprus relies on normalising relations with Ankara and anchoring Turkey into the EU, where it is bound by the same values and laws as our country. There are mutual benefits for us, for Turkey and for the other parties in this game.

Sorry Omer, but I cannot agree with anything you say above. We GCs do not recognize anybody else’s rights in or with Cyprus, nor do we accept that their signature should be required in any agreement that determines the future of our country, and this is the biggest difference between us and the TCs.

We regard ourselves as citizens of a sovereign and independed country, which is recognized as such and is a member of the UN and the EU. If the case wasn't such, we wouldn't have been accepted as a member of any of the above entities. If any past agreements contradict this reality, such as the 1960 “treaty of guarantee,” etc, then they are invalid by default, by virtue of the UN Charter which we recognize as the highest agreement in international relations and law.

What are Turkey's "legitimate" interests in Cyprus? We do not recognize that Turkey or anybody else has any such rights regarding the future of our country. Many times we invited Turkey to the ICJ, to have her defend such claims, and it refused to follow course. If you (TCs) mean and want business with the GCs, you should also recognize this reality, namely that Cyprus is and should remain an independed country and that no one can claim interests or rights with our future as citizens of this country, alternatively we do not see how we will possibly ever reach an agreement between us. Turkey is a country that cannot guarantee its own citizens’ safety, human and democratic rights, it lacks democratic and political culture and needs others to guarantee her; how on earth you TCs want her to have a role in Cyprus's future and expect us to accept her as our guarantor, is beyond our brain capacity to understand and digest –set aside accept.

[YFred]

I am sorry to disappoint you Omer, but there is nothing secret in what the two sides want or aim. Furthermore, the GC side is negotiating for its own sake, and whatever it is proposing is only because it believes is fair, logical and serves its own, as well as those of the TC community’s well intended interests. The GC side is not serving anybody else’s agendas, nor is any single one of its positions dictated by any force outside Cyprus. If this is not the case for the TC side, and part of whatever claims Talat places on the table is done so in order to serve Turkey’s or anybody else’s interests, then neither you should be proud as TCs, nor anyone from the TC community should direct the blame on the GC side for the inevitable failure of the negotiations. In such a case, Talat should be honest to come up and say to the UN and the EU what the truth is, i.e. that he is made obliged to put forward Turkey’s (likely illegitimate) interests in Cyprus, so that the world knows were to direct their efforts and pressure, and where to lay the blame.

Kifeas, gardash, who's blaming who? What's with the angry tone?

Of course, the community leaders are under influence from internal and external actors. It has always been so.. All countries are subject to outside influence or pressure from time to time, where the most powerful countries exercise more power. Al states have agreements with other countries they are obliged to honour or debts they have to service. All states have both conflicting and common interests, and very often they have to weigh these up before acting. This is International Relations.

The reality is a Cyprus solution requires 5 signatures. Each country or signature has legitimate interests including Turkey that transcend the two Cypriot communities; these have to be put on the table in private away from you and I and discussed until a consensus is reached. The 5 signatures are: The two Cypriot communities (Agreement between the Cypriots will not necessarily be a challenge as you may think), Greece, Turkey and the UK. There is also unofficial guarantor powers like the US who will have to endorse a solution in its own way.
There are issues with security that the greater powers want to address before printing their signatures.

After a solution, the new Cyprus Federal Govt will have normalised relations with Turkey and both countries will be bound by new agreements and treaties to get along. Their trade volume will increase beyond belief because of the practical proximity of both states (40 miles) and as a result both will have tremendous influence over each other. In other words, Nicosia and Ankara will be dealing with each other a lot on many issues.

I'm sorry Kifeas, you may not like Turks or Turkey, but don't be so emotional. Diplomacy has no emotions. The reality is the national interests of our country Cyprus relies on normalising relations with Ankara and anchoring Turkey into the EU, where it is bound by the same values and laws as our country. There are mutual benefits for us, for Turkey and for the other parties in this game.

Sorry Omer, but I cannot agree with anything you say above. We GCs do not recognize anybody else’s rights in or with Cyprus, nor do we accept that their signature should be required in any agreement that determines the future of our country, and this is the biggest difference between us and the TCs.

We regard ourselves as citizens of a sovereign and independed country, which is recognized as such and is a member of the UN and the EU. If the case wasn't such, we wouldn't have been accepted as a member of any of the above entities. If any past agreements contradict this reality, such as the 1960 “treaty of guarantee,” etc, then they are invalid by default, by virtue of the UN Charter which we recognize as the highest agreement in international relations and law.

What are Turkey's "legitimate" interests in Cyprus? We do not recognize that Turkey or anybody else has any such rights regarding the future of our country. Many times we invited Turkey to the ICJ, to have her defend such claims, and it refused to follow course. If you (TCs) mean and want business with the GCs, you should also recognize this reality, namely that Cyprus is and should remain an independed country and that no one can claim interests or rights with our future as citizens of this country, alternatively we do not see how we will possibly ever reach an agreement between us. Turkey is a country that cannot guarantee its own citizens’ safety, human and democratic rights, it lacks democratic and political culture and needs others to guarantee her; how on earth you TCs want her to have a role in Cyprus's future and expect us to accept her as our guarantor, is beyond our brain capacity to understand and digest –set aside accept.

Mahima ge ksimahima en gonda gonda.

[Kifeas]

Precisely, YFred! With the exception that it will applies more in your case, than that of the GCs.