Cyprus-Forum.com

[Omer Seyhan]

Omer, the sole aim of GC leadership backed by some Greek political groups and wealthy diaspora Greeks have always been to degarde TC community in minority status. Correct?

Nicos Sampson was a fasvist, ok? Makarios was too weak to respond to paramilitaries .

But overall, the aim of the G/C leadership has NOT been to make the T/Cs a minority. This is simply propaganda to justify what TMT did. Blaming the Greeks, takes away the focus on TMT...

Fact: The G/C leadership since 1978 has long supported a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation where T/C share power with them. The main issue for the G/C leadership during the Annan Plan was Turkish military presence after a solution and the property issue. I believe strongly that the G/C side wants a solution as much as the T/c side. The G/C leadership accepted a whole load of things, have made a whole load of concessions including that all G/C school children learn Turkish at school. Green Line Trade is increasing, T/Cs can be treated in Southern hospitals for free and can claim subsidies for education. None of these gestures support your argument.

Were TCs and Turkey aware of this? They were. Correct?

Ankara and the TMT which took over the power vacuum left in the T/C community by spreading fear into their own people's lives were aware, in fact they coordinated with EOKA very well. They are felow fascists and all part of Gladio.

Did they prepare Akritas Plan in order to create impressions that TC community was the source of all problems that made state affairs unworkable? Yes. Correct?

Yes EOKA did, and did the TMT not play to this tune, yes, yes they did.

Did GCs have many armed underground organizations aimed achieving their goal; Enosis or a Greek controlled Cyprus? Yes. Correct?

Yes they did. Did TMT not kill T/Cs who wanted unity and brotherhood between Cypriots? Yes, yes they did without butting an eyelid.

Under such circumstances, what's wrong with TMT's actions towards the achievement of Taksim?

lol, you placed EOKA first and then put TMT second as if one was in reaction to the other, therefore its actions would seem acceptable. Nice trick, wrong person. Both are paramilitary groups that terrorized our island.

Do u suppose, had they stayed in RoC the problem would be solved and both the representatives of GC community and the Athens backed nationalist underground organizations of GCs would accept TC community as a politically equal entity?

No, but once again its not just done to the G.Cs, which is an easy explanation for you. Think harder Insan.

Groups like TMT never allowed us to find out if we could democratically overcome our problems. They used terror in their aim for partition like EOKA before even the moderate G/C and T/Cs could agree on anything. We needed a strong President to think as a Cypriot and bring about National Unity; Makarios was NOT the man.

If so, there was a great chance for this during the inter-communal talks of 1967-1974 period... Why didn't they reach a solution? Even in 1968, Denktash proposed the return of TC refugees to their homes, accepted by Makarios but not materialized. Why?

You still have faith in Ergenekon man do you?

So, u made it clear that had there been no TMT, Denktash or alikes and any Turkish involvement into Cyprus problem; TCs would become a minority just like Turks in Greece and the problem would have been solved. I agree.

No not at all. Had there been no TMT and EOKA B (the two are linked through Gladio) then nobody would question political equality and yes, the problem would not have existed for us to ponder whether it would be solved or not. I blame the paramilitaries and their sponsors for the tragedy, I certainly dont blame one side, which is what you want me to do.

[Omer Seyhan]

Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.

YFred, can we discuss abt the responsibilities of so-called RoC and Turkey regarding the embargoes? I'd like to hear ur opinions.

Where does one begin? It was always RoC policy to empty Cyprus of TCs by what ever means possible. First the Akritas Plan, which led to 63 till 74. This was criminal and immoral act by the RoC right under the noses of the International community and law, but every body turned a blind eye to it. The policy did not change after 74, instead they used economic suffocation of the TRNC to the same effect again with the help of the international community.

On the other hand Turkey bears just as much responsibility. Their ultimate aim was Taksim and did not care much for how it came about. I don’t believe for one moment that removal of the TCs from Cyprus was ever a Turkish policy. However the migration of the TCs did not stop after 74. The Turkish policy was to support Denktas and non-solution and if TCs continue to leave then we will replace them with Turks. There was a lovely phrase “Giden to Turk, Gelen da Turk – Turkish has gone, Turkish has come”. Instead of encouraging peace and reconciliation, they backed Denktas until they realised that it was hurting their ambitions in entering the EU. When they changed their mind, Denktas refused to play ball, so they stopped supporting him, and of course he lost the election.

If you look back, both countries are equally responsible for the demise of the TC population.

So you never heard of the Acheson Plan then? The plan where Turkey agreed that Cyprus would be given to Greece, Turkey would receive a base in Karpaz / Karpasia and the Turkish Cypriots moved to the island of Kastelorizon near Rhodes, which would be annexed by Turkey.

The rest I agree with. Yes responsibility lies in multiple places.

So, maybe u have never heard that there were 2 versions of Acheson Plan:

First version: Accepted by Turkey and TCs; rejected by Greece and GCs

Second version: Accepted by Greece and GCs; rejected by Turkey and TCs.

1964-1965 were the years the concerned parties were officially discussing partition.

The concerned parties? Hardly, where were the Cypriots in this?

Who is the T/C side here? Do you mean a T/C leadership hijacked by the TMT through terror which was set up, sponsored and subservient to Turkey / Nato?

Who is the G/C side then? The weak Makarios Presidency who failed to let go of Enosis and who was lenient towards some paramilitaries (the Greek speaking ones) thus undermining the Cypriot Republic? Or do you mean EOKA B which eventually overthrew him and which like TMT was set up, sponsored and subservient to Athens / Nato?

[Omer Seyhan]

Let me ask you another question Insan and YFred you can answer this too. As Embargoed is a human rights group, then why has it never published a single press release on Commemorating the Assassination of Greek and Turkish Cypriot intellectuals, writers, journalists, trade unionists and lawyers by paramilitaries in Cyprus? Why have they never condemned the bomb attack on Afrika newspaper in northern Cyprus but are quick to accuse G/Cs of racism? Why have they never called for an investigation into the assassination of Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali and others? Or condemn the threats against writers, poets and artists by paramilitaries?


You know why...because deep down, despite calls for Unity in the T/C community by right wing organisations, they dont really care about the human rights of those in their community particularly "left wing scum who want unity with the Greeks." The Taksim enthusiasts in our community consider anybody who wants unity to be sub-human and they would love to see these unionists butchered and are only frustrated because they can't get away with it anyway.

The problem is not Greek vs Turkish Cypriots. The problem is the paramilitaries and those who deep down admire them for killing and terrorizing.

[YFred]

Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.

YFred, can we discuss abt the responsibilities of so-called RoC and Turkey regarding the embargoes? I'd like to hear ur opinions.

Where does one begin? It was always RoC policy to empty Cyprus of TCs by what ever means possible. First the Akritas Plan, which led to 63 till 74. This was criminal and immoral act by the RoC right under the noses of the International community and law, but every body turned a blind eye to it. The policy did not change after 74, instead they used economic suffocation of the TRNC to the same effect again with the help of the international community.

On the other hand Turkey bears just as much responsibility. Their ultimate aim was Taksim and did not care much for how it came about. I don’t believe for one moment that removal of the TCs from Cyprus was ever a Turkish policy. However the migration of the TCs did not stop after 74. The Turkish policy was to support Denktas and non-solution and if TCs continue to leave then we will replace them with Turks. There was a lovely phrase “Giden to Turk, Gelen da Turk – Turkish has gone, Turkish has come”. Instead of encouraging peace and reconciliation, they backed Denktas until they realised that it was hurting their ambitions in entering the EU. When they changed their mind, Denktas refused to play ball, so they stopped supporting him, and of course he lost the election.

If you look back, both countries are equally responsible for the demise of the TC population.

So you never heard of the Acheson Plan then? The plan where Turkey agreed that Cyprus would be given to Greece, Turkey would receive a base in Karpaz / Karpasia and the Turkish Cypriots moved to the island of Kastelorizon near Rhodes, which would be annexed by Turkey.

The rest I agree with. Yes responsibility lies in multiple places.

Sorry, I hadn't heard of that one. How interesting. What year?

[The Cypriot]

Let me ask you another question Insan and YFred you can answer this too. As Embargoed is a human rights group, then why has it never published a single press release on Commemorating the Assassination of Greek and Turkish Cypriot intellectuals, writers, journalists, trade unionists and lawyers by paramilitaries in Cyprus? Why have they never condemned the bomb attack on Afrika newspaper in northern Cyprus but are quick to accuse G/Cs of racism? Why have they never called for an investigation into the assassination of Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali and others? Or condemn the threats against writers, poets and artists by paramilitaries?

Now I can hear only the wind, Omer, whistling through a wild-west ghost-town.....

[YFred]

Let me ask you another question Insan and YFred you can answer this too. As Embargoed is a human rights group, then why has it never published a single press release on Commemorating the Assassination of Greek and Turkish Cypriot intellectuals, writers, journalists, trade unionists and lawyers by paramilitaries in Cyprus? Why have they never condemned the bomb attack on Afrika newspaper in northern Cyprus but are quick to accuse G/Cs of racism? Why have they never called for an investigation into the assassination of Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali and others? Or condemn the threats against writers, poets and artists by paramilitaries?

Now I can hear only the wind, Omer, whistling through a wild-west ghost-town.....

Its not that different to what Obama just did. He comes in says that what was going on was wrong, but we will not hold anyone responsible, figure that out. What chance do we have of finding these killers if they were incouraged by the government.

[insan]

Omer, the sole aim of GC leadership backed by some Greek political groups and wealthy diaspora Greeks have always been to degarde TC community in minority status. Correct?

Nicos Sampson was a fasvist, ok? Makarios was too weak to respond to paramilitaries .

But overall, the aim of the G/C leadership has NOT been to make the T/Cs a minority. This is simply propaganda to justify what TMT did. Blaming the Greeks, takes away the focus on TMT...

Fact: The G/C leadership since 1978 has long supported a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation where T/C share power with them. The main issue for the G/C leadership during the Annan Plan was Turkish military presence after a solution and the property issue. I believe strongly that the G/C side wants a solution as much as the T/c side. The G/C leadership accepted a whole load of things, have made a whole load of concessions including that all G/C school children learn Turkish at school. Green Line Trade is increasing, T/Cs can be treated in Southern hospitals for free and can claim subsidies for education. None of these gestures support your argument.

Were TCs and Turkey aware of this? They were. Correct?

Ankara and the TMT which took over the power vacuum left in the T/C community by spreading fear into their own people's lives were aware, in fact they coordinated with EOKA very well. They are felow fascists and all part of Gladio.

Did they prepare Akritas Plan in order to create impressions that TC community was the source of all problems that made state affairs unworkable? Yes. Correct?

Yes EOKA did, and did the TMT not play to this tune, yes, yes they did.

Did GCs have many armed underground organizations aimed achieving their goal; Enosis or a Greek controlled Cyprus? Yes. Correct?

Yes they did. Did TMT not kill T/Cs who wanted unity and brotherhood between Cypriots? Yes, yes they did without butting an eyelid.

Under such circumstances, what's wrong with TMT's actions towards the achievement of Taksim?

lol, you placed EOKA first and then put TMT second as if one was in reaction to the other, therefore its actions would seem acceptable. Nice trick, wrong person. Both are paramilitary groups that terrorized our island.

Do u suppose, had they stayed in RoC the problem would be solved and both the representatives of GC community and the Athens backed nationalist underground organizations of GCs would accept TC community as a politically equal entity?

No, but once again its not just done to the G.Cs, which is an easy explanation for you. Think harder Insan.

Groups like TMT never allowed us to find out if we could democratically overcome our problems. They used terror in their aim for partition like EOKA before even the moderate G/C and T/Cs could agree on anything. We needed a strong President to think as a Cypriot and bring about National Unity; Makarios was NOT the man.

If so, there was a great chance for this during the inter-communal talks of 1967-1974 period... Why didn't they reach a solution? Even in 1968, Denktash proposed the return of TC refugees to their homes, accepted by Makarios but not materialized. Why?

You still have faith in Ergenekon man do you?

So, u made it clear that had there been no TMT, Denktash or alikes and any Turkish involvement into Cyprus problem; TCs would become a minority just like Turks in Greece and the problem would have been solved. I agree.

No not at all. Had there been no TMT and EOKA B (the two are linked through Gladio) then nobody would question political equality and yes, the problem would not have existed for us to ponder whether it would be solved or not. I blame the paramilitaries and their sponsors for the tragedy, I certainly dont blame one side, which is what you want me to do.

I didn't want u to blame any side. I didn't blame either. To the contrary, I always emphisized that every armed and political group struggled/fought according to their beliefs and desires.

This is the struggle of GC/Greek solution thesis VS TC/Turkish solution thesis and it cannot only be explained with what officially happened. The essentials of the problem rest within the circumstances of cold-war, black-mailings, using the trump cards, arts and wiles of politics etc.

So, u assume there was no problem between 2 communities until the foundation of EOKA and TMT.

Do u know when GC community first demanded union with Greece and what was the TC reaction?

Do u know how many times GC community repeated the ENOSIS demand until the establishment of EOKA.

Do u know what TCs felt when Cyprus unilaterally annexed by Brits to UK?

Do u know that while GC orthodox church was spreading Enosis thought among GCs, TC intellectuals was spreading the thought of cession of Cyprus back to Turkey?

Do u think they need a gladio to come and arm them to turn the struggle into an armed struggle?

From 1955-1957 there were no armed TC underground organizations but unarmed TCs damaged many GC shops as a reaction to EOKAs armed struggle for union with Greece. See, it just takes a while to travel from ur head to ur fists.

Do u deny that Turkish resistence and Taksim policy was developed in perfect correlation of Hellenic armed struggle of EOKA? Accepting this does not mean we blame EOKA for the blood shed. They fought for their cause. They believed it was their right to annex Cyprus to Greece or make Cyprus a Greek controlled island.

[The Cypriot]

Let me ask you another question Insan and YFred you can answer this too. As Embargoed is a human rights group, then why has it never published a single press release on Commemorating the Assassination of Greek and Turkish Cypriot intellectuals, writers, journalists, trade unionists and lawyers by paramilitaries in Cyprus? Why have they never condemned the bomb attack on Afrika newspaper in northern Cyprus but are quick to accuse G/Cs of racism? Why have they never called for an investigation into the assassination of Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali and others? Or condemn the threats against writers, poets and artists by paramilitaries?

Now I can hear only the wind, Omer, whistling through a wild-west ghost-town.....

Its not that different to what Obama just did. He comes in says that what was going on was wrong, but we will not hold anyone responsible, figure that out. What chance do we have of finding these killers if they were incouraged by the government.

But Embargoed!, if they were genuinely an organisation campaigning for the human rights of TCs should condemn these killings. Why don't they do that do you think?

[YFred]

Let me ask you another question Insan and YFred you can answer this too. As Embargoed is a human rights group, then why has it never published a single press release on Commemorating the Assassination of Greek and Turkish Cypriot intellectuals, writers, journalists, trade unionists and lawyers by paramilitaries in Cyprus? Why have they never condemned the bomb attack on Afrika newspaper in northern Cyprus but are quick to accuse G/Cs of racism? Why have they never called for an investigation into the assassination of Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali and others? Or condemn the threats against writers, poets and artists by paramilitaries?

Now I can hear only the wind, Omer, whistling through a wild-west ghost-town.....

Its not that different to what Obama just did. He comes in says that what was going on was wrong, but we will not hold anyone responsible, figure that out. What chance do we have of finding these killers if they were incouraged by the government.

But Embargoed!, if they were genuinely an organisation campaigning for the human rights of TCs should condemn these killings. Why don't they do that do you think?

Only they can answer that!

[The Cypriot]

Maybe insan could ask them on behalf of the CF. There are many, many Cypriots who visit this forum to keep up to speed with the current thinking on Cyprus. I think they all have a human right to know (esp. the TC's I suspect).