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AGM condemns EU and UK for maintaining ‘apartheid in Cyprus’

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Re: AGM condemns EU and UK for maintaining ‘apartheid in Cyp

Postby insan » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:44 pm

The Cypriot wrote:
insan wrote:Omer, the sole aim of GC leadership backed by some Greek political groups and wealthy diaspora Greeks have always been to degarde TC community in minority status. Correct?

Were TCs and Turkey aware of this? They were. Correct?

Did they prepare Akritas Plan in order to create impressions that TC community was the source of all problems that made state affairs unworkable? Yes. Correct?

Did GCs have many armed underground organizations aimed achieving their goal; Enosis or a Greek controlled Cyprus? Yes. Correct?

Under such circumstances, what's wrong with TMT's actions towards the achievement of Taksim?

Do u suppose, had they stayed in RoC the problem would be solved and both the representatives of GC community and the Athens backed nationalist underground organizations of GCs would accept TC community as a politically equal entity?

If so, there was a great chance for this during the inter-communal talks of 1967-1974 period... Why didn't they reach a solution? Even in 1968, Denktash proposed the return of TC refugees to their homes, accepted by Makarios but not materialized. Why?


I don't wish to appear unsympathetic to what any Cypriot has been through in the last 40 or 50 years, insan, but just imagine what this would do for reconciliation:

Image


Sorry my ignorance abt paintball but what it has to do with what we r talking abt? If u wanna have fun with me, plz open a thread in entertainment section and be sure I'll be there to contribute for a good laugh. :lol:
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Postby YFred » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:46 pm

Omer Seyhan wrote:
YFred wrote:Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.


Embargoes are what you have on Cuba.

Actually, T/Cs can trade via the Green Line Regulations or via Turkey freely. However, the TRNC govt does not want that, they prefer to sell directly from Ercan or Famagusta with a nice big TRNC stamp on their products. But because the TRNC is non-recognised by nearly every country on the planet this is never going to be possible unless enough of them recognise the TRNC first or upgrade its status somehow and they know this very well.

With hindsight I can say with confidence that a solution is the only way to address this issue and many other issues such as property. Therefore you should focus on the nice golden goose egg that is ready to hatch and not waste time with trying to get a meagre egg out of a Rooster...

Omer, Trading through the green line was a joke. The very first shipment was 19 pounds worht of bricks and it took 4 hours for the GC police to let it through. Make that what you will.
It takes 7 hours to travel to Ercan and under 4 to Larnaka. You cant build business with your feet and hands tied. They will not accept any grain from the north because some of it may have been grown on GC land, while some bafiti grows bamya on my land and delivers it to uk.
Direct trade is the only answer through our own sea or air ports.
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Postby Omer Seyhan » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:48 pm

Omer, the sole aim of GC leadership backed by some Greek political groups and wealthy diaspora Greeks have always been to degarde TC community in minority status. Correct?


Nicos Sampson was a fasvist, ok? Makarios was too weak to respond to paramilitaries .

But overall, the aim of the G/C leadership has NOT been to make the T/Cs a minority. This is simply propaganda to justify what TMT did. Blaming the Greeks, takes away the focus on TMT...

Fact: The G/C leadership since 1978 has long supported a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation where T/C share power with them. The main issue for the G/C leadership during the Annan Plan was Turkish military presence after a solution and the property issue. I believe strongly that the G/C side wants a solution as much as the T/c side. The G/C leadership accepted a whole load of things, have made a whole load of concessions including that all G/C school children learn Turkish at school. Green Line Trade is increasing, T/Cs can be treated in Southern hospitals for free and can claim subsidies for education. None of these gestures support your argument.

Were TCs and Turkey aware of this? They were. Correct?


Ankara and the TMT which took over the power vacuum left in the T/C community by spreading fear into their own people's lives were aware, in fact they coordinated with EOKA very well. They are felow fascists and all part of Gladio.

Did they prepare Akritas Plan in order to create impressions that TC community was the source of all problems that made state affairs unworkable? Yes. Correct?


Yes EOKA did, and did the TMT not play to this tune, yes, yes they did.

Did GCs have many armed underground organizations aimed achieving their goal; Enosis or a Greek controlled Cyprus? Yes. Correct?


Yes they did. Did TMT not kill T/Cs who wanted unity and brotherhood between Cypriots? Yes, yes they did without butting an eyelid.

Under such circumstances, what's wrong with TMT's actions towards the achievement of Taksim?


lol, you placed EOKA first and then put TMT second as if one was in reaction to the other, therefore its actions would seem acceptable. :) Nice trick, wrong person. Both are paramilitary groups that terrorized our island.

Do u suppose, had they stayed in RoC the problem would be solved and both the representatives of GC community and the Athens backed nationalist underground organizations of GCs would accept TC community as a politically equal entity?


No, but once again its not just done to the G.Cs, which is an easy explanation for you. Think harder Insan.

Groups like TMT never allowed us to find out if we could democratically overcome our problems. They used terror in their aim for partition like EOKA before even the moderate G/C and T/Cs could agree on anything. We needed a strong President to think as a Cypriot and bring about National Unity; Makarios was NOT the man.

If so, there was a great chance for this during the inter-communal talks of 1967-1974 period... Why didn't they reach a solution? Even in 1968, Denktash proposed the return of TC refugees to their homes, accepted by Makarios but not materialized. Why?


You still have faith in Ergenekon man do you?

:lol:
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Re: AGM condemns EU and UK for maintaining ‘apartheid in Cyp

Postby The Cypriot » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:48 pm

insan wrote:Sorry my ignorance abt paintball but what it has to do with what we r talking abt? If u wanna have fun with me, plz open a thread in entertainment section and be sure I'll be there to contribute for a good laugh. :lol:


This is a CUSTARD FIGHT, insan (as per my proposal further above).

And humour is a funny way of being serious.
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Postby YFred » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:49 pm

insan wrote:
YFred wrote:Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.


YFred, can we discuss abt the responsibilities of so-called RoC and Turkey regarding the embargoes? I'd like to hear ur opinions.

Where does one begin? It was always RoC policy to empty Cyprus of TCs by what ever means possible. First the Akritas Plan, which led to 63 till 74. This was criminal and immoral act by the RoC right under the noses of the International community and law, but every body turned a blind eye to it. The policy did not change after 74, instead they used economic suffocation of the TRNC to the same effect again with the help of the international community.

On the other hand Turkey bears just as much responsibility. Their ultimate aim was Taksim and did not care much for how it came about. I don’t believe for one moment that removal of the TCs from Cyprus was ever a Turkish policy. However the migration of the TCs did not stop after 74. The Turkish policy was to support Denktas and non-solution and if TCs continue to leave then we will replace them with Turks. There was a lovely phrase “Giden to Turk, Gelen da Turk – Turkish has gone, Turkish has come”. Instead of encouraging peace and reconciliation, they backed Denktas until they realised that it was hurting their ambitions in entering the EU. When they changed their mind, Denktas refused to play ball, so they stopped supporting him, and of course he lost the election.

If you look back, both countries are equally responsible for the demise of the TC population.
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Postby Omer Seyhan » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:52 pm

YFred wrote:
Omer Seyhan wrote:
YFred wrote:Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.


Embargoes are what you have on Cuba.

Actually, T/Cs can trade via the Green Line Regulations or via Turkey freely. However, the TRNC govt does not want that, they prefer to sell directly from Ercan or Famagusta with a nice big TRNC stamp on their products. But because the TRNC is non-recognised by nearly every country on the planet this is never going to be possible unless enough of them recognise the TRNC first or upgrade its status somehow and they know this very well.

With hindsight I can say with confidence that a solution is the only way to address this issue and many other issues such as property. Therefore you should focus on the nice golden goose egg that is ready to hatch and not waste time with trying to get a meagre egg out of a Rooster...

Omer, Trading through the green line was a joke. The very first shipment was 19 pounds worht of bricks and it took 4 hours for the GC police to let it through. Make that what you will.
It takes 7 hours to travel to Ercan and under 4 to Larnaka. You cant build business with your feet and hands tied. They will not accept any grain from the north because some of it may have been grown on GC land, while some bafiti grows bamya on my land and delivers it to uk.
Direct trade is the only answer through our own sea or air ports.



What do you want? To sell 'Made in TRNC' goods everywhere, sell disputed land and homes that belong to refugees and expect the G/C side to say nothing? What would you do if you were a G/C?

There are two sides of this coin Yfred, you are an intelligent person, can't you accept that?

The only way to resolve this issue like the 101 other issues is through a Cyprus solution....
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:54 pm

YFred wrote:
Omer Seyhan wrote:
YFred wrote:Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.


Embargoes are what you have on Cuba.

Actually, T/Cs can trade via the Green Line Regulations or via Turkey freely. However, the TRNC govt does not want that, they prefer to sell directly from Ercan or Famagusta with a nice big TRNC stamp on their products. But because the TRNC is non-recognised by nearly every country on the planet this is never going to be possible unless enough of them recognise the TRNC first or upgrade its status somehow and they know this very well.

With hindsight I can say with confidence that a solution is the only way to address this issue and many other issues such as property. Therefore you should focus on the nice golden goose egg that is ready to hatch and not waste time with trying to get a meagre egg out of a Rooster...

Omer, Trading through the green line was a joke. The very first shipment was 19 pounds worht of bricks and it took 4 hours for the GC police to let it through. Make that what you will.
It takes 7 hours to travel to Ercan and under 4 to Larnaka. You cant build business with your feet and hands tied. They will not accept any grain from the north because some of it may have been grown on GC land, while some bafiti grows bamya on my land and delivers it to uk.
Direct trade is the only answer through our own sea or air ports.


YFred, you are mistaken or at best grossly exaggerating in the above. I suggest you learn the facts more accurately, from those that do trade and know better. It is obvious that your source is only the propaganda media of the TC side, and not your own personal knowledge of the facts. Although it is true that the beginning there were problems with the application of the green line regulation, things are now functioning much differently than how you describe them.
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Postby Omer Seyhan » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:57 pm

YFred wrote:
insan wrote:
YFred wrote:Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.


YFred, can we discuss abt the responsibilities of so-called RoC and Turkey regarding the embargoes? I'd like to hear ur opinions.

Where does one begin? It was always RoC policy to empty Cyprus of TCs by what ever means possible. First the Akritas Plan, which led to 63 till 74. This was criminal and immoral act by the RoC right under the noses of the International community and law, but every body turned a blind eye to it. The policy did not change after 74, instead they used economic suffocation of the TRNC to the same effect again with the help of the international community.

On the other hand Turkey bears just as much responsibility. Their ultimate aim was Taksim and did not care much for how it came about. I don’t believe for one moment that removal of the TCs from Cyprus was ever a Turkish policy. However the migration of the TCs did not stop after 74. The Turkish policy was to support Denktas and non-solution and if TCs continue to leave then we will replace them with Turks. There was a lovely phrase “Giden to Turk, Gelen da Turk – Turkish has gone, Turkish has come”. Instead of encouraging peace and reconciliation, they backed Denktas until they realised that it was hurting their ambitions in entering the EU. When they changed their mind, Denktas refused to play ball, so they stopped supporting him, and of course he lost the election.

If you look back, both countries are equally responsible for the demise of the TC population.


So you never heard of the Acheson Plan then? The plan where Turkey agreed that Cyprus would be given to Greece, Turkey would receive a base in Karpaz / Karpasia and the Turkish Cypriots moved to the island of Kastelorizon near Rhodes, which would be annexed by Turkey.

The rest I agree with. Yes responsibility lies in multiple places.
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Postby insan » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:59 pm

Omer Seyhan wrote:
Omer, the sole aim of GC leadership backed by some Greek political groups and wealthy diaspora Greeks have always been to degarde TC community in minority status. Correct?


Nicos Sampson was a fasvist, ok? Makarios was too weak to respond to paramilitaries .

But overall, the aim of the G/C leadership has NOT been to make the T/Cs a minority. This is simply propaganda to justify what TMT did. Blaming the Greeks, takes away the focus on TMT...

Fact: The G/C leadership since 1978 has long supported a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation where T/C share power with them. The main issue for the G/C leadership during the Annan Plan was Turkish military presence after a solution and the property issue. I believe strongly that the G/C side wants a solution as much as the T/c side. The G/C leadership accepted a whole load of things, have made a whole load of concessions including that all G/C school children learn Turkish at school. Green Line Trade is increasing, T/Cs can be treated in Southern hospitals for free and can claim subsidies for education. None of these gestures support your argument.

Were TCs and Turkey aware of this? They were. Correct?


Ankara and the TMT which took over the power vacuum left in the T/C community by spreading fear into their own people's lives were aware, in fact they coordinated with EOKA very well. They are felow fascists and all part of Gladio.

Did they prepare Akritas Plan in order to create impressions that TC community was the source of all problems that made state affairs unworkable? Yes. Correct?


Yes EOKA did, and did the TMT not play to this tune, yes, yes they did.

Did GCs have many armed underground organizations aimed achieving their goal; Enosis or a Greek controlled Cyprus? Yes. Correct?


Yes they did. Did TMT not kill T/Cs who wanted unity and brotherhood between Cypriots? Yes, yes they did without butting an eyelid.

Under such circumstances, what's wrong with TMT's actions towards the achievement of Taksim?


lol, you placed EOKA first and then put TMT second as if one was in reaction to the other, therefore its actions would seem acceptable. :) Nice trick, wrong person. Both are paramilitary groups that terrorized our island.

Do u suppose, had they stayed in RoC the problem would be solved and both the representatives of GC community and the Athens backed nationalist underground organizations of GCs would accept TC community as a politically equal entity?


No, but once again its not just done to the G.Cs, which is an easy explanation for you. Think harder Insan.

Groups like TMT never allowed us to find out if we could democratically overcome our problems. They used terror in their aim for partition like EOKA before even the moderate G/C and T/Cs could agree on anything. We needed a strong President to think as a Cypriot and bring about National Unity; Makarios was NOT the man.

If so, there was a great chance for this during the inter-communal talks of 1967-1974 period... Why didn't they reach a solution? Even in 1968, Denktash proposed the return of TC refugees to their homes, accepted by Makarios but not materialized. Why?


You still have faith in Ergenekon man do you?

:lol:


So, u made it clear that had there been no TMT, Denktash or alikes and any Turkish involvement into Cyprus problem; TCs would become a minority just like Turks in Greece and the problem would have been solved. I agree.
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Postby insan » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:04 pm

Omer Seyhan wrote:
YFred wrote:
insan wrote:
YFred wrote:Omer, being denied the right to trade freely is also embargoed. It has caused the migration of 10s of thousands of TCs from Cyprus (RoC Policy since 1960). RoC has as much responsibility as Turkey on this matter. Do not dismiss any initiative that works towards the ending of it. Being unable to trade because they occupy GC property whiles the GCs are able to trade with the world despite the fact that they occupying TC property may be legal but it’s immoral. It is as immoral as the Natasha’s working in those nightclubs in the middle of the fields in the TRNC.


YFred, can we discuss abt the responsibilities of so-called RoC and Turkey regarding the embargoes? I'd like to hear ur opinions.

Where does one begin? It was always RoC policy to empty Cyprus of TCs by what ever means possible. First the Akritas Plan, which led to 63 till 74. This was criminal and immoral act by the RoC right under the noses of the International community and law, but every body turned a blind eye to it. The policy did not change after 74, instead they used economic suffocation of the TRNC to the same effect again with the help of the international community.

On the other hand Turkey bears just as much responsibility. Their ultimate aim was Taksim and did not care much for how it came about. I don’t believe for one moment that removal of the TCs from Cyprus was ever a Turkish policy. However the migration of the TCs did not stop after 74. The Turkish policy was to support Denktas and non-solution and if TCs continue to leave then we will replace them with Turks. There was a lovely phrase “Giden to Turk, Gelen da Turk – Turkish has gone, Turkish has come”. Instead of encouraging peace and reconciliation, they backed Denktas until they realised that it was hurting their ambitions in entering the EU. When they changed their mind, Denktas refused to play ball, so they stopped supporting him, and of course he lost the election.

If you look back, both countries are equally responsible for the demise of the TC population.


So you never heard of the Acheson Plan then? The plan where Turkey agreed that Cyprus would be given to Greece, Turkey would receive a base in Karpaz / Karpasia and the Turkish Cypriots moved to the island of Kastelorizon near Rhodes, which would be annexed by Turkey.

The rest I agree with. Yes responsibility lies in multiple places.


So, maybe u have never heard that there were 2 versions of Acheson Plan:

First version: Accepted by Turkey and TCs; rejected by Greece and GCs

Second version: Accepted by Greece and GCs; rejected by Turkey and TCs.

1964-1965 were the years the concerned parties were officially discussing partition.
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