Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

No need for all the garbage above answer the following questions. What guarantees did you install into your plan to ensure the balance of power in the upper house was not lost? If we reduced the land by 50% as you demand could the GCs still use freedom to settle wherever they wish to swing 1 seat and take control of the upper house if they so desired?

VP,

We have discussed all your concerns many times on here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685 so go back and read what the exchanges were about. You can find them in the first few pages for sure.

I have also told you, that in a True Democracy, the only things that are guaranteed are your Constitutional, Civil, Democratic and Human Rights along many other rights. In order to protect those 5 seats in the Upper House, you will need to reduce the north state substantially so that almost all of the 200,000 GC refugees are given back their properties and land to be part of the south state. The more land you hand back, that much more you can be secure to hold onto those 5 seats. The more GC land you hold on to, the more chance you create to lose the 5 seats. It is that simple. You want to keep most of the GC land in the north and since there will not be limits on the number of GC's who can return back to their land in the north, you want those 5 seats to be assigned to the TC's as a right, which means, that GC's living in the north can only vote for TC MP's (senators), since no GC's will be able to run as a MP for the upper house. You know that will not be accepted by the GC's and neither by the EU, so why are you insisting on asking for a guaranteed upper house 5 seats. The only way you are ever going to have to defend those 5 seats, are by giving almost all of the GC land back, so that their owners will become part of the south state.

I will give you the reasons why the upper house seats will not be assigned to the ethnic communities, but rather to the states directly, because this way, no ethnic group can use their seats as a group to polarize the government by pulling out of the government, as the case was in 1963-64. The Federation is not a "coalition government" where the government will fail if they no longer hold the majority. If any senators who does not fulfil their position voted in by the voters, they can be removed and special election can be held to replace them, but if the whole ethnic groups senators leave, then we are back to the 1963-64 days. The country cannot be held hostage to settle political scores or worse, demands for independence from the union. No more Hostage Taking will be allowed in the new Federation Government and country of Cyprus. I do not trust anyone with such power...........sorry.! It will be too easy to create problems just to force to secede from the union. If such options are not available, then no one will be able to hatch any such bad ideas. I'm 5 steps ahead of those with bad intentions, therefore, I can only propose and endorse a system of a True Federation and True Democracy for all citizens with equal rights and equal opportunity.!

[YFred]

No need for all the garbage above answer the following questions. What guarantees did you install into your plan to ensure the balance of power in the upper house was not lost? If we reduced the land by 50% as you demand could the GCs still use freedom to settle wherever they wish to swing 1 seat and take control of the upper house if they so desired?

VP,

We have discussed all your concerns many times on here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685 so go back and read what the exchanges were about. You can find them in the first few pages for sure.

I have also told you, that in a True Democracy, the only things that are guaranteed are your Constitutional, Civil, Democratic and Human Rights along many other rights. In order to protect those 5 seats in the Upper House, you will need to reduce the north state substantially so that almost all of the 200,000 GC refugees are given back their properties and land to be part of the south state. The more land you hand back, that much more you can be secure to hold onto those 5 seats. The more GC land you hold on to, the more chance you create to lose the 5 seats. It is that simple. You want to keep most of the GC land in the north and since there will not be limits on the number of GC's who can return back to their land in the north, you want those 5 seats to be assigned to the TC's as a right, which means, that GC's living in the north can only vote for TC MP's (senators), since no GC's will be able to run as a MP for the upper house. You know that will not be accepted by the GC's and neither by the EU, so why are you insisting on asking for a guaranteed upper house 5 seats. The only way you are ever going to have to defend those 5 seats, are by giving almost all of the GC land back, so that their owners will become part of the south state.

I will give you the reasons why the upper house seats will not be assigned to the ethnic communities, but rather to the states directly, because this way, no ethnic group can use their seats as a group to polarize the government by pulling out of the government, as the case was in 1963-64. The Federation is not a "coalition government" where the government will fail if they no longer hold the majority. If any senators who does not fulfil their position voted in by the voters, they can be removed and special election can be held to replace them, but if the whole ethnic groups senators leave, then we are back to the 1963-64 days. The country cannot be held hostage to settle political scores or worse, demands for independence from the union. No more Hostage Taking will be allowed in the new Federation Government and country of Cyprus. I do not trust anyone with such power...........sorry.! It will be too easy to create problems just to force to secede from the union. If such options are not available, then no one will be able to hatch any such bad ideas. I'm 5 steps ahead of those with bad intentions, therefore, I can only propose and endorse a system of a True Federation and True Democracy for all citizens with equal rights and equal opportunity.!

Kikapu, your thinking on this is guarantied to lead to two countries. You have DT mentality but at least he has a reason. If you reduce the size, that will lead to un-viability, which will lead to joining Turkey. I've posted before and you have ignored it so forgive me for repeating myself. The way forward is to maximise TRNC land with maximum Greeks Cypriots possible so that it is advantages to remain self sufficient and part of Cyprus. You guaranty the TC representation in the upper house by the governing party nominating the members in the upper house rather than electing them. Electing them creates huge problems between the two houses competing with each other, where as nominating works better like in the UK, perfectly acceptable in the EU.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

I have also told you, that in a True Democracy, the only things that are guaranteed are your Constitutional, Civil, Democratic and Human Rights along many other rights. In order to protect those 5 seats in the Upper House, you will need to reduce the north state substantially so that almost all of the 200,000 GC refugees are given back their properties and land to be part of the south state. The more land you hand back, that much more you can be secure to hold onto those 5 seats. The more GC land you hold on to, the more chance you create to lose the 5 seats. It is that simple. You want to keep most of the GC land in the north and since there will not be limits on the number of GC's who can return back to their land in the north, you want those 5 seats to be assigned to the TC's as a right, which means, that GC's living in the north can only vote for TC MP's (senators), since no GC's will be able to run as a MP for the upper house. You know that will not be accepted by the GC's and neither by the EU, so why are you insisting on asking for a guaranteed upper house 5 seats. The only way you are ever going to have to defend those 5 seats, are by giving almost all of the GC land back, so that their owners will become part of the south state.

And I have explained time and time again that this is diguised capitulation and is clearly your way of selling the TCs out. Even if we reduced the north state to 18% the numbers of TCs in the north state will be reduced as not all of them would like to become refugees a third time, coupled with freedom of movement and settlement the GCs can easily move into the weakened north state and demand the 1 seat the warrant allowing the to have what they have always wanted total control over the whole island. You should be ashamed that you are still peddling to same hanging disguised as a life line.

I will give you the reasons why the upper house seats will not be assigned to the ethnic communities, but rather to the states directly, because this way, no ethnic group can use their seats as a group to polarize the government by pulling out of the government, as the case was in 1963-64. The Federation is not a "coalition government" where the government will fail if they no longer hold the majority. If any senators who does not fulfil their position voted in by the voters, they can be removed and special election can be held to replace them, but if the whole ethnic groups senators leave, then we are back to the 1963-64 days. The country cannot be held hostage to settle political scores or worse, demands for independence from the union. No more Hostage Taking will be allowed in the new Federation Government and country of Cyprus. I do not trust anyone with such power...........sorry.! It will be too easy to create problems just to force to secede from the union. If such options are not available, then no one will be able to hatch any such bad ideas. I'm 5 steps ahead of those with bad intentions, therefore, I can only propose and endorse a system of a True Federation and True Democracy for all citizens with equal rights and equal opportunity.!

You can constitute that if anyone should vacate their seat then decision will be taken without them..that would serve as an incentive for all members of the upper house to attend all meetings.

So in short your suicide pill did not work as we are not stupid and will take a leap of faith just because you say its a true federation and true democracy...what or who gives you the authority to dictate what is right or wrong for us? Only we can do that.

[Kikapu]

No need for all the garbage above answer the following questions. What guarantees did you install into your plan to ensure the balance of power in the upper house was not lost? If we reduced the land by 50% as you demand could the GCs still use freedom to settle wherever they wish to swing 1 seat and take control of the upper house if they so desired?

VP,

We have discussed all your concerns many times on here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685 so go back and read what the exchanges were about. You can find them in the first few pages for sure.

I have also told you, that in a True Democracy, the only things that are guaranteed are your Constitutional, Civil, Democratic and Human Rights along many other rights. In order to protect those 5 seats in the Upper House, you will need to reduce the north state substantially so that almost all of the 200,000 GC refugees are given back their properties and land to be part of the south state. The more land you hand back, that much more you can be secure to hold onto those 5 seats. The more GC land you hold on to, the more chance you create to lose the 5 seats. It is that simple. You want to keep most of the GC land in the north and since there will not be limits on the number of GC's who can return back to their land in the north, you want those 5 seats to be assigned to the TC's as a right, which means, that GC's living in the north can only vote for TC MP's (senators), since no GC's will be able to run as a MP for the upper house. You know that will not be accepted by the GC's and neither by the EU, so why are you insisting on asking for a guaranteed upper house 5 seats. The only way you are ever going to have to defend those 5 seats, are by giving almost all of the GC land back, so that their owners will become part of the south state.

I will give you the reasons why the upper house seats will not be assigned to the ethnic communities, but rather to the states directly, because this way, no ethnic group can use their seats as a group to polarize the government by pulling out of the government, as the case was in 1963-64. The Federation is not a "coalition government" where the government will fail if they no longer hold the majority. If any senators who does not fulfil their position voted in by the voters, they can be removed and special election can be held to replace them, but if the whole ethnic groups senators leave, then we are back to the 1963-64 days. The country cannot be held hostage to settle political scores or worse, demands for independence from the union. No more Hostage Taking will be allowed in the new Federation Government and country of Cyprus. I do not trust anyone with such power...........sorry.! It will be too easy to create problems just to force to secede from the union. If such options are not available, then no one will be able to hatch any such bad ideas. I'm 5 steps ahead of those with bad intentions, therefore, I can only propose and endorse a system of a True Federation and True Democracy for all citizens with equal rights and equal opportunity.!

Kikapu, your thinking on this is guarantied to lead to two countries. You have DT mentality but at least he has a reason. If you reduce the size, that will lead to un-viability, which will lead to joining Turkey. I've posted before and you have ignored it so forgive me for repeating myself. The way forward is to maximise TRNC land with maximum Greeks Cypriots possible so that it is advantages to remain self sufficient and part of Cyprus. You guaranty the TC representation in the upper house by the governing party nominating the members in the upper house rather than electing them. Electing them creates huge problems between the two houses competing with each other, where as nominating works better like in the UK, perfectly acceptable in the EU.

With True Federation, there won't be any chance for either state to join either Turkey or Greece, or to become 2 separate countries. You must stop reading the Annan plan still.

Then go ahead and nominate them. Guess what the results going to be if we are to maintain full Democracy, 8-2 in the GC's favour no matter what formula you will want to use, based on pure numbers of the whole population, or did you expect to get 50% of the upper house with less than 20% of the population.? The UK is system based on purely on political ideology, so how can you even make a comparison, and even then, it is a lost caused for the TC's. My system which is what the Americans use, is the only fair way to give the TC's state 50% power of the upper house, but in order for the TC's to benefit the 50% power, they will need to be the overwhelming majority in the north state, which means giving back most of the GC land back.!

You argument about the TC state to be viable, they will need to hold onto more GC land is a useless argument, because in Switzerland, we have 26 cantons and each canton is much smaller than what the new TC state will look like, and economically speaking, each of the 26 individual cantons can have the present "trnc" for breakfast any day of the week. I'm not even going to talk about Malta, Liechtenstein, Monaco and so on. It is not the size of the land which is the factor to be economically viable, but what it's citizens can do to make it economically viable. But if you want to include the GC's to be in the north state (at least 200,000 GC's) and maintain the present size of the "trnc", then go ahead, but be prepared to lose every political office, on State and Federal level under True Federation and True Democracy.!

[YFred]

No need for all the garbage above answer the following questions. What guarantees did you install into your plan to ensure the balance of power in the upper house was not lost? If we reduced the land by 50% as you demand could the GCs still use freedom to settle wherever they wish to swing 1 seat and take control of the upper house if they so desired?

VP,

We have discussed all your concerns many times on here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685 so go back and read what the exchanges were about. You can find them in the first few pages for sure.

I have also told you, that in a True Democracy, the only things that are guaranteed are your Constitutional, Civil, Democratic and Human Rights along many other rights. In order to protect those 5 seats in the Upper House, you will need to reduce the north state substantially so that almost all of the 200,000 GC refugees are given back their properties and land to be part of the south state. The more land you hand back, that much more you can be secure to hold onto those 5 seats. The more GC land you hold on to, the more chance you create to lose the 5 seats. It is that simple. You want to keep most of the GC land in the north and since there will not be limits on the number of GC's who can return back to their land in the north, you want those 5 seats to be assigned to the TC's as a right, which means, that GC's living in the north can only vote for TC MP's (senators), since no GC's will be able to run as a MP for the upper house. You know that will not be accepted by the GC's and neither by the EU, so why are you insisting on asking for a guaranteed upper house 5 seats. The only way you are ever going to have to defend those 5 seats, are by giving almost all of the GC land back, so that their owners will become part of the south state.

I will give you the reasons why the upper house seats will not be assigned to the ethnic communities, but rather to the states directly, because this way, no ethnic group can use their seats as a group to polarize the government by pulling out of the government, as the case was in 1963-64. The Federation is not a "coalition government" where the government will fail if they no longer hold the majority. If any senators who does not fulfil their position voted in by the voters, they can be removed and special election can be held to replace them, but if the whole ethnic groups senators leave, then we are back to the 1963-64 days. The country cannot be held hostage to settle political scores or worse, demands for independence from the union. No more Hostage Taking will be allowed in the new Federation Government and country of Cyprus. I do not trust anyone with such power...........sorry.! It will be too easy to create problems just to force to secede from the union. If such options are not available, then no one will be able to hatch any such bad ideas. I'm 5 steps ahead of those with bad intentions, therefore, I can only propose and endorse a system of a True Federation and True Democracy for all citizens with equal rights and equal opportunity.!

Kikapu, your thinking on this is guarantied to lead to two countries. You have DT mentality but at least he has a reason. If you reduce the size, that will lead to un-viability, which will lead to joining Turkey. I've posted before and you have ignored it so forgive me for repeating myself. The way forward is to maximise TRNC land with maximum Greeks Cypriots possible so that it is advantages to remain self sufficient and part of Cyprus. You guaranty the TC representation in the upper house by the governing party nominating the members in the upper house rather than electing them. Electing them creates huge problems between the two houses competing with each other, where as nominating works better like in the UK, perfectly acceptable in the EU.

With True Federation, there won't be any chance for either state to join either Turkey or Greece, or to become 2 separate countries. You must stop reading the Annan plan still.

Then go ahead and nominate them. Guess what the results going to be if we are to maintain full Democracy, 8-2 in the GC's favour no matter what formula you will want to use, based on pure numbers of the whole population, or did you expect to get 50% of the upper house with less than 20% of the population.? The UK is system based on purely on political ideology, so how can you even make a comparison, and even then, it is a lost caused for the TC's. My system which is what the Americans use, is the only fair way to give the TC's state 50% power of the upper house, but in order for the TC's to benefit the 50% power, they will need to be the overwhelming majority in the north state, which means giving back most of the GC land back.!

You argument about the TC state to be viable, they will need to hold onto more GC land is a useless argument, because in Switzerland, we have 26 cantons and each canton is much smaller than what the new TC state will look like, and economically speaking, each of the 26 individual cantons can have the present "trnc" for breakfast any day of the week. I'm not even going to talk about Malta, Liechtenstein, Monaco and so on. It is not the size of the land which is the factor to be economically viable, but what it's citizens can do to make it economically viable. But if you want to include the GC's to be in the north state (at least 200,000 GC's) and maintain the present size of the "trnc", then go ahead, but be prepared to lose every political office, on State and Federal level under True Federation and True Democracy.!

When You mentioned fairness and UK I then stopped reading. Even when Labour was in government, having won the majority of the vote, the Upper House allways had 75% conservative. It's only since Blair changed the upper house that it has been more representitive. I think you are in for quite a shock at the end of these negotiations when you find out that Christofias has agreed 50:50 upper house. It will not work in any other way, TCs will not vote for anything else.
I believe that if you gave the GCs who used to live in the north complete freedom to move to the north under TC administration, you will be lucky if 100000 will want to move. The final figure as to how many will be decided in the negotiations.
We all have to make sacrifices for Cyprus's sake.

[Kikapu]

And I have explained time and time again that this is diguised capitulation and is clearly your way of selling the TCs out. Even if we reduced the north state to 18% the numbers of TCs in the north state will be reduced as not all of them would like to become refugees a third time, coupled with freedom of movement and settlement the GCs can easily move into the weakened north state and demand the 1 seat the warrant allowing the to have what they have always wanted total control over the whole island. You should be ashamed that you are still peddling to same hanging disguised as a life line.

And I have told you from the beginning, that almost all of the TC's will need to live in the north TC state to be able to maintain those 5 upper house seats. Now, if the TC's do not want to move into the new north state and want to remain in the south GC state and if even more TC's who may choose to move to the south from the north state, then you will create a shortage of TC's in the north, so basically what you are telling me is, the upper 5 seats are not so important to those TC's and will be comfortable who ever has more seats than the other, because at the end of the day, the Federal Constitution will protect all the citizens and bills passed in the upper house are not against ethnic groups but bills that will effect all citizens. You have yet to give me ONE solid example what bills can be passed that will be unconstitutional that will effect the TC's worse than the GC's, if we were to assume, that the GC's will launch an aggressive movement of people to flood the TC state to take one of the seat away.

Your problem in reality is, that the TC's do not have 250,000 TC's but rather 120,000. With added settlers given RoC citizenships, lets just say there will be 170,000 TC's, tops. If most of the GC properties are given back and only few thousand GC's remain behind, how do you expect the GC's to flood the TC state, when the TC's produce more kids than the GC's, so stands the reason, that the TC population will increase year after year. Just admit it VP, that your reasoning is nothing but purely to hold onto GC land and hope for a partition down the road. You can scream and kick all you want with name calling, but if the TC's are not willing to help themselves to stay as a unit in the north state, then don't blame the system, but blame on our community for not giving a damn, because they do not think the upper house is as important as you. I still believe state power is were it is all at and not at the Federal level, since all the safeguards will be already in the Federal constitution for all citizens of Cyprus. I’m not saying we should not keep the upper house, but then all the TC's will need to pull their weight to help to do so by making sacrifices and compromises by remaining in the north state. You think that will be asking for too much, don't you.!

You can constitute that if anyone should vacate their seat then decision will be taken without them..that would serve as an incentive for all members of the upper house to attend all meetings.

So in short your suicide pill did not work as we are not stupid and will take a leap of faith just because you say its a true federation and true democracy...what or who gives you the authority to dictate what is right or wrong for us? Only we can do that.

Hey VP, don't blame me for Denktash putting us in this position of having agreed to a BBF and also not trying to stop the RoC from becoming a EU member, where nothing short of True Democracy and True Federation will be accepted by the GC's or the EU. Did you ask Talat if Hillary Clinton is willing to support a Racist, Undemocratic and Human Rights violations such as another Annan Plan for Cyprus as a settlement, or did she tell him that he wasted his time leaving his Carbon Footprint on the planet for no reason to go and see her in Washington with such silly proposals.?

[Kikapu]

No need for all the garbage above answer the following questions. What guarantees did you install into your plan to ensure the balance of power in the upper house was not lost? If we reduced the land by 50% as you demand could the GCs still use freedom to settle wherever they wish to swing 1 seat and take control of the upper house if they so desired?

VP,

We have discussed all your concerns many times on here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685 so go back and read what the exchanges were about. You can find them in the first few pages for sure.

I have also told you, that in a True Democracy, the only things that are guaranteed are your Constitutional, Civil, Democratic and Human Rights along many other rights. In order to protect those 5 seats in the Upper House, you will need to reduce the north state substantially so that almost all of the 200,000 GC refugees are given back their properties and land to be part of the south state. The more land you hand back, that much more you can be secure to hold onto those 5 seats. The more GC land you hold on to, the more chance you create to lose the 5 seats. It is that simple. You want to keep most of the GC land in the north and since there will not be limits on the number of GC's who can return back to their land in the north, you want those 5 seats to be assigned to the TC's as a right, which means, that GC's living in the north can only vote for TC MP's (senators), since no GC's will be able to run as a MP for the upper house. You know that will not be accepted by the GC's and neither by the EU, so why are you insisting on asking for a guaranteed upper house 5 seats. The only way you are ever going to have to defend those 5 seats, are by giving almost all of the GC land back, so that their owners will become part of the south state.

I will give you the reasons why the upper house seats will not be assigned to the ethnic communities, but rather to the states directly, because this way, no ethnic group can use their seats as a group to polarize the government by pulling out of the government, as the case was in 1963-64. The Federation is not a "coalition government" where the government will fail if they no longer hold the majority. If any senators who does not fulfil their position voted in by the voters, they can be removed and special election can be held to replace them, but if the whole ethnic groups senators leave, then we are back to the 1963-64 days. The country cannot be held hostage to settle political scores or worse, demands for independence from the union. No more Hostage Taking will be allowed in the new Federation Government and country of Cyprus. I do not trust anyone with such power...........sorry.! It will be too easy to create problems just to force to secede from the union. If such options are not available, then no one will be able to hatch any such bad ideas. I'm 5 steps ahead of those with bad intentions, therefore, I can only propose and endorse a system of a True Federation and True Democracy for all citizens with equal rights and equal opportunity.!

Kikapu, your thinking on this is guarantied to lead to two countries. You have DT mentality but at least he has a reason. If you reduce the size, that will lead to un-viability, which will lead to joining Turkey. I've posted before and you have ignored it so forgive me for repeating myself. The way forward is to maximise TRNC land with maximum Greeks Cypriots possible so that it is advantages to remain self sufficient and part of Cyprus. You guaranty the TC representation in the upper house by the governing party nominating the members in the upper house rather than electing them. Electing them creates huge problems between the two houses competing with each other, where as nominating works better like in the UK, perfectly acceptable in the EU.

With True Federation, there won't be any chance for either state to join either Turkey or Greece, or to become 2 separate countries. You must stop reading the Annan plan still.

Then go ahead and nominate them. Guess what the results going to be if we are to maintain full Democracy, 8-2 in the GC's favour no matter what formula you will want to use, based on pure numbers of the whole population, or did you expect to get 50% of the upper house with less than 20% of the population.? The UK is system based on purely on political ideology, so how can you even make a comparison, and even then, it is a lost caused for the TC's. My system which is what the Americans use, is the only fair way to give the TC's state 50% power of the upper house, but in order for the TC's to benefit the 50% power, they will need to be the overwhelming majority in the north state, which means giving back most of the GC land back.!

You argument about the TC state to be viable, they will need to hold onto more GC land is a useless argument, because in Switzerland, we have 26 cantons and each canton is much smaller than what the new TC state will look like, and economically speaking, each of the 26 individual cantons can have the present "trnc" for breakfast any day of the week. I'm not even going to talk about Malta, Liechtenstein, Monaco and so on. It is not the size of the land which is the factor to be economically viable, but what it's citizens can do to make it economically viable. But if you want to include the GC's to be in the north state (at least 200,000 GC's) and maintain the present size of the "trnc", then go ahead, but be prepared to lose every political office, on State and Federal level under True Federation and True Democracy.!

When You mentioned fairness and UK I then stopped reading.

Then you missed the best part about more land means economical viability for the TC's.!

Even when Labour was in government, having won the majority of the vote, the Upper House allways had 75% conservative. It's only since Blair changed the upper house that it has been more representitive. I think you are in for quite a shock at the end of these negotiations when you find out that Christofias has agreed 50:50 upper house. It will not work in any other way, TCs will not vote for anything else.

The UK for the better part, is a Unitary state and have a Parliamentary system. We are talking about a Federation here, therefore if they stick to the letter of the word, don't expect the same system as the UK. Look, I don't care how the upper house is decided at 50%-50%, as long as it is done democratically where no ones democratic and Human Rights are violated and anyone and everyone have a voting rights. That's all.!

I believe that if you gave the GCs who used to live in the north complete freedom to move to the north under TC administration, you will be lucky if 100000 will want to move. The final figure as to how many will be decided in the negotiations. We all have to make sacrifices for Cyprus's sake.

Thank you very much. You have made my argument for me, that many GC's are not going to move to the north state. If you are giving the max as a 100,000 GC's into a present land size of the "trnc" or even at 29%, it is very easy to conclude, that even far less GC's will move to the TC state, at 18-20%. Please tell this to VP, because he believes that the GC's are ready to launch an aggressive flooding of the TC state very soon after the settlement is reached.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

And I have told you from the beginning, that almost all of the TC's will need to live in the north TC state to be able to maintain those 5 upper house seats. Now, if the TC's do not want to move into the new north state and want to remain in the south GC state and if even more TC's who may choose to move to the south from the north state, then you will create a shortage of TC's in the north, so basically what you are telling me is, the upper 5 seats are not so important to those TC's and will be comfortable who ever has more seats than the other, because at the end of the day, the Federal Constitution will protect all the citizens and bills passed in the upper house are not against ethnic groups but bills that will effect all citizens. You have yet to give me ONE solid example what bills can be passed that will be unconstitutional that will effect the TC's worse than the GC's, if we were to assume, that the GC's will launch an aggressive movement of people to flood the TC state to take one of the seat away.

You are posting but not taking any notice of what the other side is saying so your counter arguement does not address the problem at hand, read this carefully....we agree to give back 50% of the north how will this guarantee our seat with our numbers depleated and open to easier swamping if the GC use their right to settle where they wish? Do you really see thousands of TC uprooting from their land and moving north, some will but not all.This will mean capituation and TC reduced to a minority under a GC administration allowing them a free hand to manipulate and pass laws as they wish. This is a major flaw in your plan and if not calculated it is very naive which I get the impression you are definately not. there has to be guarantees that the balance cannot be manipulated to swing in the neither sides favor therefore exposing us all to the risks of the past.

Your problem in reality is, that the TC's do not have 250,000 TC's but rather 120,000. With added settlers given RoC citizenships, lets just say there will be 170,000 TC's, tops. If most of the GC properties are given back and only few thousand GC's remain behind, how do you expect the GC's to flood the TC state, when the TC's produce more kids than the GC's, so stands the reason, that the TC population will increase year after year. Just admit it VP, that your reasoning is nothing but purely to hold onto GC land and hope for a partition down the road. You can scream and kick all you want with name calling, but if the TC's are not willing to help themselves to stay as a unit in the north state, then don't blame the system, but blame on our community for not giving a damn, because they do not think the upper house is as important as you. I still believe state power is were it is all at and not at the Federal level, since all the safeguards will be already in the Federal constitution for all citizens of Cyprus. I’m not saying we should not keep the upper house, but then all the TC's will need to pull their weight to help to do so by making sacrifices and compromises by remaining in the north state. You think that will be asking for too much, don't you.!

Produce more kids??? what a stupid comment....our numbers will be over 200.000 allowing for the TCs in diaspora and settlers who are longing to return. can the GCs own property all over the island? can they show their main residence as the north state? of course they will have this right and believe me they are cunning enough to use it all they need is one seat to get 1 seat and control the power necessary to make changes that we cannot say no to. ı have in our past exchnages given you many examples which you do not want to accept so what they use of going over ground that you have no intention of accepting as you feel you always 100% right and no one else opinion counts for jack shit.

Why are you so anti TCs and do not want to place safeguards in place that will over time become redundent if the GCs do not try to exploit sensative issues?

Hey VP, don't blame me for Denktash putting us in this position of having agreed to a BBF and also not trying to stop the RoC from becoming a EU member, where nothing short of True Democracy and True Federation will be accepted by the GC's or the EU. Did you ask Talat if Hillary Clinton is willing to support a Racist, Undemocratic and Human Rights violations such as another Annan Plan for Cyprus as a settlement, or did she tell him that he wasted his time leaving his Carbon Footprint on the planet for no reason to go and see her in Washington with such silly proposals.?

Dont know anything about carbon footprint but little steps at a time like meeting Clinton (this would be unheard of a few years ago and even under ferice opposition by the GCs and Greek lobby in the USA) and a lack of progress in finding a solution and who knows what will happen, do the Gcs want to take that chance, then they shoudl walk away from these talks as soon as possible.

[Kikapu]

You are posting but not taking any notice of what the other side is saying so your counter arguement does not address the problem at hand, read this carefully....we agree to give back 50% of the north how will this guarantee our seat with our numbers depleated and open to easier swamping if the GC use their right to settle where they wish? Do you really see thousands of TC uprooting from their land and moving north, some will but not all.This will mean capituation and TC reduced to a minority under a GC administration allowing them a free hand to manipulate and pass laws as they wish. This is a major flaw in your plan and if not calculated it is very naive which I get the impression you are definately not. there has to be guarantees that the balance cannot be manipulated to swing in the neither sides favor therefore exposing us all to the risks of the past.

There cannot be guarantees for any seats, VP, as in "Rubber Stamp" guarantees.! All the seats will need to be earned (voted) by the candidates. How do you have such "Rubber Stamp Guarantees" and then claim we are living in a Democratic country, and please don't give me your usual "there are different shades of Democracy" routine, because what you are asking for, is the worse kind of "shady democracy" that is practiced in undemocratic countries. You don't even have such structures in the north where it is an illegal unrecognised "state" (although, Talat did state day or two ago, that the north was not democratic), but you think we should in a UN/EU member state.! It's kind of going backwards, don't you think.? If it's not good enough in the "trnc", what makes you think it is good for Cyprus, when other democratic alternatives are available. Guaranteed seats as such as the ones you are asking, will not be anything different than the 1960 constitution which brought all of our problems we have in Cyprus today. I will not consent for us to go back to the same days of 1963 and beyond. Been there, Done that.!!

The reason why I believe in my proposal in giving back as much GC land back as possible to ensure that the new north state remains mainly TC, is because, from strategic point of view, it is much easier to control small area than a larger areas. The bigger the circle is, the harder it becomes to control it. Had George Armstrong Custer did not venture out into a wide Indian land at Little Bighorn to take on the natives, he would not have had his head scalped. He would have had much better chance to defend himself and his men had he stayed on the fort grounds. Even a "circled wagons" gives a better protection than spread out individually against such attacks. I hope you have gotten the parity in what I'm saying to you. The point is, the TC's will be better positioned to defend the north states 5 seats on smaller land than larger one. There can be no question on this one. For one thing, you will not have many GC's who would feel resentful that you are holding their land away from them, who would then move to the north, just to get even with you and the ones you are holding, the GC's can come and live amongst you, who's numbers will be reduced greatly, hence the TC's having control of the north.

Produce more kids??? what a stupid comment....our numbers will be over 200.000 allowing for the TCs in diaspora and settlers who are longing to return. can the GCs own property all over the island? can they show their main residence as the north state? of course they will have this right and believe me they are cunning enough to use it all they need is one seat to get 1 seat and control the power necessary to make changes that we cannot say no to. ı have in our past exchnages given you many examples which you do not want to accept so what they use of going over ground that you have no intention of accepting as you feel you always 100% right and no one else opinion counts for jack shit.

Is it not a fact, that Muslims produce more kids than the Christians. Were you not giving us a lecture recently how the population in the north will be a million in a short time who would then become the majority.!

So our numbers will be 200,000 when this and that and the other happens. That's good news in fact, which means less to be concerned about the GC's flooding the north state in an "ambush" to steal a seat in the upper house. As I told you before, in politics, nothing is guaranteed or that it stays the same. Can you guarantee to me, that no TC's will ever vote for a GC candidate in the north for any of the political positions, be it be for state or Federal office. The answer is, of course not, so don't ask for guarantees from me either. The political landscape changes just like the drifting Sand Dunes, and this will become a more common place, when Cypriot start voting on political ideology and not on ethnic lines, which is unworkable for too long. I have my beliefs, that Cyprus too will have a system in a few years, where ethnic line voting will become political ideology voting not too long after a settlement is reached. I give 2 decades max. This is another reason for not allowing undemocratic guarantees on political seats based on ethnic lines.

The only example you have given me as to what the GC's will do if they were to gain the majority in the upper house, was breaking off relationships with Turkey or stopping trade with them, when you know this will not happen, specially if Turkey becomes a EU member. All the rest were just "hot air".

On the contrary, your opinion does count "jack shit".!

Why are you so anti TCs and do not want to place safeguards in place that will over time become redundent if the GCs do not try to exploit sensative issues?

I'm only against anti Democracy, against anti Human Rights and against anti International Laws. Show me anything I have written that says I'm anti TC anywhere in this forum. This is your own invention in your own mind and no one else shares your views, even most of your NeoPartitrionist friends. You think you can milk that thought for all it's worth, but all you have been getting from it now is a lot of piss water, so keep doing what you are doing if it makes you feel better, because at the end, you would want your children to live in a True Democracy in their own country and not in a some Third World so call "democracy".! I can take the abuse from you and others and it does not bother me in the least because I stand on solid grounds on principles in believing, that for a better future for our people, it can only come with True Democracy with respect for Human Rights and International Laws.!

Dont know anything about carbon footprint but little steps at a time like meeting Clinton (this would be unheard of a few years ago and even under ferice opposition by the GCs and Greek lobby in the USA) and a lack of progress in finding a solution and who knows what will happen, do the Gcs want to take that chance, then they shoudl walk away from these talks as soon as possible.

Perhaps you believe in "Baby Steps" to be taken for the TC's to move forward with, but I believe in taking "Giant Steps" for the TC's to move into the future with, and the only way that will come about, is living on the same principles as the other EU members and not as they do in other Muslim countries. We are in a very unique place in time and history to make the lives of the TC's much better than we could have ever envisioned not too many years ago. Other countries in the Middle East can only dream of our opportunity to become a True Democratic society. Lets not throw it away for the sake of demanding "Rubber Stamp Guarantees" which will not be offered or accepted by the GC's, let alone, the EU.!

[Viewpoint]

The "principles" you peddle are a receipt for disaster you show no interest in protecting the rights of TCs who would in a very short time become a minority in their own country and onlookers in a GC state run by GCs. Ill try and simplify where you are going wrong, say we agree to your structure and the TC state is reduced to 10% with a population of 50.000 TCs, all the GCs would need to do given the opportnity which they would grab immediately with their rights of freedom of movement and settlement is move into the TC state and claim residency 15.000 would seal the 1 seat leaving us whistling in the wind and at the mercy of a revenge seeking GC people.

Without guaranteed representation there will be no deal so you are doomed to failure. How many other TCs have accepted your plan?