The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


Bi-Com, Bi-Zon FEDERATION CONFIRMED!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby observer » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:59 pm

Jerry wrote:You seem to forget the legal implications of the property issue. The Greek Cypriot property in the north can only legally be handed over to a "Turkish Cypriot State" with the agreement of the legal owners. If the UN or anyone else sanctions its transfer without the consent of the GCs then it is in breach of the UN Charter. Any form of bi-zonality is a half way house to complete partition. The more "independent" the north wishes to be the more land it will have to return, 7% is not nearly enough.


If you got your nose out of the law books and looked at what happened in the real world I think you might find this a less than convincing argument. Palestinians haven't got there homes back, and there are a whole lot of new Balkan states where people have not got theirs back either, all of which have been recognised by most of the world.

I'm not saying that it is the right thing. Just what happens when their is conflict.
observer
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1666
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:21 am

Postby kurupetos » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:27 pm

observer wrote:
Jerry wrote:You seem to forget the legal implications of the property issue. The Greek Cypriot property in the north can only legally be handed over to a "Turkish Cypriot State" with the agreement of the legal owners. If the UN or anyone else sanctions its transfer without the consent of the GCs then it is in breach of the UN Charter. Any form of bi-zonality is a half way house to complete partition. The more "independent" the north wishes to be the more land it will have to return, 7% is not nearly enough.


If you got your nose out of the law books and looked at what happened in the real world I think you might find this a less than convincing argument. Palestinians haven't got there homes back, and there are a whole lot of new Balkan states where people have not got theirs back either, all of which have been recognised by most of the world.

I'm not saying that it is the right thing. Just what happens when their is conflict.


If you really believed that, you wouldn't be in this forum. Neither you, YFred, MrHate, etc. :roll:
User avatar
kurupetos
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 18855
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Cyprus

Postby Nikitas » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:30 pm

"and there are a whole lot of new Balkan states where people have not got theirs back either, all of which have been recognised by most of the world. "

Obviously inaccurate statement! Except for Kossovo where the property issue is under review, can you name ONE Balkan state where there has been losso of property for individual owners?
Nikitas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7420
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Postby YFred » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:39 pm

observer wrote:An interesting article from the London Daily News
http://www.thelondondailynews.com/obama ... -2674.html

I don't think that it is accurate in every detail, but it is an indication that the the international community is becoming tired of GCs who want everything to be as it was pre-74 but better.

Editorial

The highly effective Turkish presence at the G20 in London and with the visit of President Obama to Ankara Monday, the speculation in diplomatic circles in Washington is that President Obama is ready to make a deal with Turkey over Cyprus, in exchange for greater co-operation in the Middle East.

The London Daily News who spoke with the delegation of President Erdogan at the G20 hinted that Washington is prepared to support a confederal solution to the Cyprus problem, giving the Turkish north a much more "enhanced role" internationally.

The Turkish north would be allowed to negotiate with international bodies and be allowed to agree bi-lateral agreements with international organisations in this new arrangement.

Sources close to Hillary Clinton the Secretary of State for the United States underlined the significance the US relationship with Turkey and that a "package of agreements" with Ankara had been formulated to allow the US to use Turkeys good relations with Syria and other Islamic states in the region to push for a solution in the Middle East.

Senior Turkish diplomats in London were "pleased and confident" that a deal over Cyprus would be made in Ankara when President Obama makes his first visit to Turkey as President.

In addition the concession made by Turkey to agree to the former Danish Prime Minister as the new Secretary General of NATO has come at a price, again believed to be a greater role for Turkey in the Mid-East talks and an "enhanced role" for the Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus.


The Greek lobby have filed their objections at speculation that the leader of the Turkish north Mr Talat would be meeting Hillary Clinton as a head of state. This is still being organised according to sources close to President Obama during his visit to Turkey.

The Cyprus talks have stalled over disputes over property rights of the Greek Cypriots and the role of the Turkish army in Cyprus. Mr Mehmet Ali Talat is quoted by CNN Turk as saying:

"There is no reason for not concluding this matter. Cyprus issue can be and should be solved by the end of 2009

The over zealous forumers actually want to go to pre 1958, I really do wish it was possible, but realistically I can't see it, so we will have to take the best we can on both sides with certain amount of maturity for the benefit of most on the island.
User avatar
YFred
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12100
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:22 am
Location: Lurucina-Upon-Thames

Postby CBBB » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:50 pm

'Erdogan Has Gambled Away Political Capital'

US President Barack Obama said he would like Turkey to become a member of the European Union. But after Ankara's role in the bickering at the NATO summit, skepticism has grown. Turkey has only itself to blame, say German commentators.

US President Barack Obama spent much of his trip to Europe rebuilding bridges. In Prague on Sunday for a US-EU summit, he said "in my view, there is no old Europe or new Europe. There is only a united Europe." During a speech at the NATO summit in Strasbourg late last week, Obama reached out the olive branch, saying, "in America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world."

And at the G-20 summit in London before that, Obama even took responsibility for the global economic meltdown. "It is true … that the crisis began in the US. I take responsibility, even if I wasn't even president at the time."

This week, though, there is only one bridge that is making headlines -- the one mentioned by Obama on Sunday. "Turkey is bound to Europe by more than bridges over the Bosporus," he said. "Centuries of shared history, culture and commerce bring you together … and Turkish membership would broaden and strengthen Europe's foundation once more."

It is a demand that US presidents have been making for years -- and it is one that never fails to generate grumblings of disapproval from those in Europe who are opposed to Turkish EU accession -- namely Germany, France and Cyprus. This week is no different, with a slough of German politicians, including Chancellor Angela Merkel, rushing to disagree with Obama. Sarkozy, too, voiced his disapproval. On Tuesday, German editorialists jump into the fray.

The financial daily Handelsblatt writes:

"In its search for a new identity, Turkey needs plenty of ego stroking. Obama delivers that -- Europe tends not to. That too is a reason that Turkey's EU accession process is delayed. The Turks know full well that, without the economic advantages bestowed by EU membership, they will have a more difficult time solidifying their position as a moderate Muslim democracy. But their pride can take only so much. Critique from Europe has strengthened the feeling held by many in Turkey that they aren't desired as an EU member. Such a rejection hurts countries looking to wield influence."

"Many in Turkey will have thus been gratified by Ankara's having almost blocked the consensus necessary to name a new NATO secretary general. That feeling, though, is misleading, because Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan gambled away political capital…. It was not the way for the Turkish leader to win new friends."

"If Turkey wants to be a reliable partner for Europe and America, then Obama should use his trip not just to recommend Turkish membership in the EU. He should make it clear to Erdogan that Europe needs a modern and secular Turkey -- but not a state in which religion determines its politics. And especially not a state driven by megalomania."

The center-left daily Süddeutsche Zeitung writes:

"In promoting EU membership for Turkey, Obama uses geopolitical arguments -- by saying, for example, that the US and Europe should reach out to Muslims as friends, neighbors and partners. From the point of view of Washington, that makes sense -- but for the European Union, it is hardly helpful. Turkey is trying to become a member, not an ambassador to the Muslim world. Doubt as to whether the Turkish leadership is clear on this point has become even more widespread following Ankara's performance at the NATO summit in Strasbourg and Baden-Baden. When it came to the nomination of the Dane Anders Fogh Rasmussen as the next NATO secretary general, Turkey not only wanted to demonstrate its strength, but also served as a mouthpiece for Muslim anger over the Muhammad caricatures (eds note: first printed in a Danish newspaper in the fall of 2005)."

"At a blow, Turkey managed to hand those skeptical of its EU membership the best possible arguments against allowing accession…. The leadership in Ankara shouldn't forget that it is not geopolitical experts who decide on Turkey's EU membership. Rather, it is domestic politicians."

The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes:

"The preview delivered by Turkey in the argument over NATO and Rasmussen is likely enough for the Europeans. It shows what it would be like were Turkey, as an EU member, to turn itself into the ambassador of the Muslim world -- whether on issues of freedom of expression (Muhammad caricatures) or when it comes to any other domestic political issue. Those who have a say in Brussels also have a say in Berlin. Can it possibly be that Paris is the only EU capital to have grasped this truth?"

Charles Hawley, 2.45 p.m. CET

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 22,00.html


Europe doesn't seem takem in by Obama's rhetoric.
User avatar
CBBB
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 11521
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Centre of the Universe

Postby Jerry » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:52 pm

observer wrote:
Jerry wrote:You seem to forget the legal implications of the property issue. The Greek Cypriot property in the north can only legally be handed over to a "Turkish Cypriot State" with the agreement of the legal owners. If the UN or anyone else sanctions its transfer without the consent of the GCs then it is in breach of the UN Charter. Any form of bi-zonality is a half way house to complete partition. The more "independent" the north wishes to be the more land it will have to return, 7% is not nearly enough.


If you got your nose out of the law books and looked at what happened in the real world I think you might find this a less than convincing argument. Palestinians haven't got there homes back, and there are a whole lot of new Balkan states where people have not got theirs back either, all of which have been recognised by most of the world.

I'm not saying that it is the right thing. Just what happens when their is conflict.


International Courts and indeed the "trnc" (in fact Turkey) have acknowledged that there is an issue of legal ownership of property. The Courts in judgements againt Turkey and the "trnc" in setting up an immovable property commission to compensate GCs for the loss of their land. What you are claiming is that "might is right". Unfortunately for Turkey we live in more civilised times and, with its EU aspirations, Turkey may just have to accept a just solution and not one based on brute force.
Jerry
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4730
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:29 pm
Location: UK

Postby CBBB » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:55 pm

User avatar
CBBB
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 11521
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Centre of the Universe

Postby MrH » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:37 pm

DT
There will be no partition of this island and no recognition of this island without a GC signature to it. The more noise you make about this the more desperate you sound that you will face another 35 years of isolation. We will continue as the legitimate government of Cyprus enjoying our full rights and privileges within the EU until a solution is found that is acceptable to us. You on the other hand can enjoy your partnership with the settlers and a bankrupt society.


You may continue your singing and dancing now.



As much as I admire your postings - honesty with your particular undivided cause, I must disagree mate. Partition is a REALITY, It has been since 1963. In fact, I would actually say that we have never lived united; unless you include the years under British rule (pre-1960).

"Until a Solution is Found", as you've said above, is now regarded by the world as unacceptable on the Cyprus issue. This Greek Cypriot ideology has now been exhausted and will soon end. If the Greek Cypriot people reject the next UN Bi-Com, Bi-Zon Federal plan, or if President Christofias walks out in the middle of the talks, rest assured that Northern Cyprus will no longer sit quietly. Assume what you will DT, I know many important personalities in my particular field of work and they ALL say the same thing, regardless of what is briefly discussed with your Greek Cypriot leaders in order to temporarily keep them happy as part of a "General" meeting.

I Refer to your leader as "President" as I accept that he is the President of the Greek Cypriot administered Republic of Cyprus together with his COUNTERPART "President Talat" of Northern Cyprus; The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The sooner we all accept this reality, the quicker Peace will flush over Cyprus and both Greek and Turkish Cypriot states live SIDE-BY-SIDE.

Partition is Peace.
User avatar
MrH
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:18 pm
Location: London

Postby bill cobbett » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:39 pm

Keep waving the kochans to 90% of the land in the Occupied North in their faces boys and girls.
User avatar
bill cobbett
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 15759
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:20 pm
Location: Embargoed from Kyrenia by Jurkish Army and Genocided (many times) by Thieving, Brain-Washed Lordo

Postby DT. » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:42 pm

MrH wrote:DT
There will be no partition of this island and no recognition of this island without a GC signature to it. The more noise you make about this the more desperate you sound that you will face another 35 years of isolation. We will continue as the legitimate government of Cyprus enjoying our full rights and privileges within the EU until a solution is found that is acceptable to us. You on the other hand can enjoy your partnership with the settlers and a bankrupt society.


You may continue your singing and dancing now.



As much as I admire your postings - honesty with your particular undivided cause, I must disagree mate. Partition is a REALITY, It has been since 1963. In fact, I would actually say that we have never lived united; unless you include the years under British rule (pre-1960).

"Until a Solution is Found", as you've said above, is now regarded by the world as unacceptable on the Cyprus issue. This Greek Cypriot ideology has now been exhausted and will soon end. If the Greek Cypriot people reject the next UN Bi-Com, Bi-Zon Federal plan, or if President Christofias walks out in the middle of the talks, rest assured that Northern Cyprus will no longer sit quietly. Assume what you will DT, I know many important personalities in my particular field of work and they ALL say the same thing, regardless of what is briefly discussed with your Greek Cypriot leaders in order to temporarily keep them happy as part of a "General" meeting.

I Refer to your leader as "President" as I accept that he is the President of the Greek Cypriot administered Republic of Cyprus together with his COUNTERPART "President Talat" of Northern Cyprus; The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The sooner we all accept this reality, the quicker Peace will flush over Cyprus and both Greek and Turkish Cypriot states live SIDE-BY-SIDE.

Partition is Peace.


ok help me out so that I understand this better

"Until a Solution is Found", as you've said above, is now regarded by the world as unacceptable on the Cyprus issue. This Greek Cypriot ideology has now been exhausted and will soon end.


Why? Who said its exhausted? Who says a solution does not need to be found for the isolation to be lifted?

If the Greek Cypriot people reject the next UN Bi-Com, Bi-Zon Federal plan, or if President Christofias walks out in the middle of the talks, rest assured that Northern Cyprus will no longer sit quietly.


I'll give you this, but you haven't given me the alternative which is more probable. Christofias has proven so far to piss off a lot more people on his side with the concessions so far. What makes you think he won't keep on doing that and publicising every minute concession in every EU summit until the Turkish side has no choice other than to leave the talks or reject them? What happens if talat/erdogan blink get their bluff called?

I know many important personalities in my particular field of work and they ALL say the same thing, regardless of what is briefly discussed with your Greek Cypriot leaders in order to temporarily keep them happy as part of a "General" meeting.


I'm not gonna compete with you here about who you know and who I know but the facts on the ground are solid and cannot be moved. The world HAS NO MORE CARROTS TO GIVE US. We got in the EU, we're the recognised govt of the entire island and the only thing that motivates us right now is regaining land under a reasonable plan. There's not much the world can do against or for us right now. You cannot have an EU sovereign states land being compromised and a different state recognised on it without that states approval.

Have your partition by all means...find some land that's yours and call it the Republic of Pogo Sticks for all I care....never gonna happen on our land though.
User avatar
DT.
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12684
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:34 pm
Location: Lefkosia

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests